WB6YRW/6 TX beacon service for FST4W listeners


KD2OM
 

Stuart, this is what decoded.
image0.jpeg

.
 

On Jul 4, 2022, at 12:41, Stuart Ogawa <stuartogawa@...> wrote:


@ Steve,

wb6yrw/6 = fst4w

wb6yrw = wspr

transmitting on both modes, concurrently, so that listeners can compare and contrast via wspr rocks

-stu
wb6yrw

On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 9:15 AM Glenn Elmore <n6gn@...> wrote:

I'll transmit 100% mode 5 FST4W  for a few hours today so that we can perhaps get an idea of spots missed by others, assuming propagation isn't marginal. 

I'm thinking of trying simultaneous WSPR/FST4W transmissions by inserting two audio tones - if I can do it with low enough IMD to be 'legal'.    If that can be made to work so that we can directly and simultaneously compare modes I'll drop back to 25 or 50% transmit duty cycle.    At 100% there won't be any question about interleave of modes from two instances of WSJT-X. 

If all that can be made to work OK ...



On 7/4/22 09:44, KD2OM wrote:

Hearing Glen now on 20 at -26. Not hearing WB6YRW/6 yet but I see others have. It is reporting mode 2 on wsprnet.


Steve KD2OM

On 7/4/22 15:27, Stuart Ogawa wrote:
15:20gmt begin 20m beacon

On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 6:48 AM KD2OM <steve@...> wrote:

I receive myself at +28 but since wsprnet filters own calls is doesn't get reported. If I use /2 then it will show up but with the FST4W it would use 2 transmissions to send the whole call. The transmitter is an RFZero which puts out +13. I have added a 3 dB pad to the output, so +10dB to the hardline. Probably +3 actually at the 9:1 transformer and antenna. WA2ZKD has heard it at -41. He is about 13 miles away. 

Now to try to make the antenna 1/4 wave and try to match it the 75 ohm hardline. Going forward, a small amplifier at the feedpoint with power sent down the coax might make it a bit better.


Steve KD2OM

On 7/4/22 03:47, Glenn Elmore wrote:

Funny thing is, I don't hear myself (listening on the remote at 13 miles distant) much of the time.  On top of that with this strong signal, often +29 on WSPR2, I often report 10-20 dB lower than this on FST4W. 

It seems like the decoder isn't working well for strong signals or else I have something set up wrong here that I haven't yet recognized.

Glenn n6gn



On 7/3/22 21:31, Rob Robinett wrote:
you are not even hearing yourself ;=(

On Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 6:56 PM KD2OM <steve@...> wrote:
I am beaconing MF using FST4W-900. 10dBm into a very bad antenna, but you never know.

Steve KD2OM

.
 

On Jul 3, 2022, at 20:58, Stuart Ogawa <stuartogawa@...> wrote:

5:55PM PST / 00:55 gmt

begin fst4w 40m tx beacon


--
Rob Robinett
AI6VN
mobile: +1 650 218 8896


Edward (W3ENR / K3WRG)
 

A new guy (to me) doing -300 north of the Bay area, see attachment - WB7ABP

I was sitting in the shack this AM and heard the telltale grinding sound of the fan starting to fail in the little micro-PC.  Base CPU temps are up 10c, so my performance will be impaired until the new fan gets here in a few days. 

I'm going to go ahead and pick up a banged up I5-9500 or, if possible, I5-9600 small or micro form factor 6 core system, hopefully for under $300.  I'll post stats when I upgrade.

But my real hope is that Rob finds success with the M1 at about the time that the bleeding edge people start dumping them cheaper in favor of the M2+ or whatever is the latest and greatest later this year.

Edward




On 7/4/22 13:19, KD2OM wrote:

Stuart, this is what decoded.
image0.jpeg

.
 

On Jul 4, 2022, at 12:41, Stuart Ogawa <stuartogawa@...> wrote:


@ Steve,

wb6yrw/6 = fst4w

wb6yrw = wspr

transmitting on both modes, concurrently, so that listeners can compare and contrast via wspr rocks

-stu
wb6yrw

On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 9:15 AM Glenn Elmore <n6gn@...> wrote:

I'll transmit 100% mode 5 FST4W  for a few hours today so that we can perhaps get an idea of spots missed by others, assuming propagation isn't marginal. 

I'm thinking of trying simultaneous WSPR/FST4W transmissions by inserting two audio tones - if I can do it with low enough IMD to be 'legal'.    If that can be made to work so that we can directly and simultaneously compare modes I'll drop back to 25 or 50% transmit duty cycle.    At 100% there won't be any question about interleave of modes from two instances of WSJT-X. 

If all that can be made to work OK ...



On 7/4/22 09:44, KD2OM wrote:

Hearing Glen now on 20 at -26. Not hearing WB6YRW/6 yet but I see others have. It is reporting mode 2 on wsprnet.


Steve KD2OM

On 7/4/22 15:27, Stuart Ogawa wrote:
15:20gmt begin 20m beacon

On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 6:48 AM KD2OM <steve@...> wrote:

I receive myself at +28 but since wsprnet filters own calls is doesn't get reported. If I use /2 then it will show up but with the FST4W it would use 2 transmissions to send the whole call. The transmitter is an RFZero which puts out +13. I have added a 3 dB pad to the output, so +10dB to the hardline. Probably +3 actually at the 9:1 transformer and antenna. WA2ZKD has heard it at -41. He is about 13 miles away. 

Now to try to make the antenna 1/4 wave and try to match it the 75 ohm hardline. Going forward, a small amplifier at the feedpoint with power sent down the coax might make it a bit better.


Steve KD2OM

On 7/4/22 03:47, Glenn Elmore wrote:

Funny thing is, I don't hear myself (listening on the remote at 13 miles distant) much of the time.  On top of that with this strong signal, often +29 on WSPR2, I often report 10-20 dB lower than this on FST4W. 

It seems like the decoder isn't working well for strong signals or else I have something set up wrong here that I haven't yet recognized.

Glenn n6gn



On 7/3/22 21:31, Rob Robinett wrote:
you are not even hearing yourself ;=(

On Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 6:56 PM KD2OM <steve@...> wrote:
I am beaconing MF using FST4W-900. 10dBm into a very bad antenna, but you never know.

Steve KD2OM

.
 

On Jul 3, 2022, at 20:58, Stuart Ogawa <stuartogawa@...> wrote:

5:55PM PST / 00:55 gmt

begin fst4w 40m tx beacon


--
Rob Robinett
AI6VN
mobile: +1 650 218 8896


ON5KQ
 

I am listening on 20m with all modes of jT9 decoder for the new modes from todays afternoon onward

Ulli, ON5KQ


Glenn Elmore
 

WB7ABP is Lynn in Santa Rosa, CA  and we just started his TX and WD rx this AM. WB7ABP is his Yagi at 60' with WSJT-X on single mode5 while WB7ABP/K is a Kiwi on an active antenna on wsprdaemon. KP4MD near Sacramento is also now spotting FST4W.

I am now transmitting N6GN/F on 14.97005 mode5  "simultaneously" with equal power N6GN/W on 14/197195 mode2. The quotes are necessary because mode2 and mode5 are synchronous, only beginning at the same point every other 5 minute period.

But the results seems "interesting".  For one thing I had to set different transmit call signs because only one instance of a sign was getting reported by wspr.rocks.   Additionally, the time reported for mode5 is clearly often wrong.

Also I think I see  a bit of negative skew on mode5 SNR reports compared to mode2.  Probably the algorithms are different and it's hard to say how a proper comparison should be made since the measurement intervals are different and propagation does change.  On my nearby remote site SNRs are tending to be more similar though it still seems like /F is somewhat lower:

WD_3.0.3.1
2022-07-04 21:48:00 N6GN/W DN70ll N6GN/K DN70jo 14.097195 2 6 0 20 315 2 10 12 WD_3.0.3.1
2022-07-04 21:46:00 N6GN/F DN70ll N6GN/K DN70jo 14.097005 2 4 0 20 315 2 10 11 WD_3.0.3.1
2022-07-04 21:46:00 N6GN/W DN70ll N6GN/K DN70jo 14.097195 2 6 0 20 315 2 10 12 WD_3.0.3.1
2022-07-04 21:44:00 N6GN/W DN70ll N6GN/K DN70jo 14.097195 2 8 0 20 315 2 10 12 WD_3.0.3.1

For those running WD with all modes enabled, wspr as well as FST4W, you can have a look to see if your reports are similar.  I'm still trying to sort this out...


On 7/4/22 12:51, Edward Hammond wrote:
A new guy (to me) doing -300 north of the Bay area, see attachment - WB7ABP


Stuart Ogawa
 

@ Steve...thank you.

-------

23:22 UTC / 4:22pm pst begin 17m fst4w beacon

later this evening will begin 80m fst4w beacon

On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 2:59 PM Glenn Elmore <n6gn@...> wrote:

WB7ABP is Lynn in Santa Rosa, CA  and we just started his TX and WD rx this AM. WB7ABP is his Yagi at 60' with WSJT-X on single mode5 while WB7ABP/K is a Kiwi on an active antenna on wsprdaemon. KP4MD near Sacramento is also now spotting FST4W.

I am now transmitting N6GN/F on 14.97005 mode5  "simultaneously" with equal power N6GN/W on 14/197195 mode2. The quotes are necessary because mode2 and mode5 are synchronous, only beginning at the same point every other 5 minute period.

But the results seems "interesting".  For one thing I had to set different transmit call signs because only one instance of a sign was getting reported by wspr.rocks.   Additionally, the time reported for mode5 is clearly often wrong.

Also I think I see  a bit of negative skew on mode5 SNR reports compared to mode2.  Probably the algorithms are different and it's hard to say how a proper comparison should be made since the measurement intervals are different and propagation does change.  On my nearby remote site SNRs are tending to be more similar though it still seems like /F is somewhat lower:

WD_3.0.3.1
2022-07-04 21:48:00 N6GN/W DN70ll N6GN/K DN70jo 14.097195 2 6 0 20 315 2 10 12 WD_3.0.3.1
2022-07-04 21:46:00 N6GN/F DN70ll N6GN/K DN70jo 14.097005 2 4 0 20 315 2 10 11 WD_3.0.3.1
2022-07-04 21:46:00 N6GN/W DN70ll N6GN/K DN70jo 14.097195 2 6 0 20 315 2 10 12 WD_3.0.3.1
2022-07-04 21:44:00 N6GN/W DN70ll N6GN/K DN70jo 14.097195 2 8 0 20 315 2 10 12 WD_3.0.3.1

For those running WD with all modes enabled, wspr as well as FST4W, you can have a look to see if your reports are similar.  I'm still trying to sort this out...


On 7/4/22 12:51, Edward Hammond wrote:
A new guy (to me) doing -300 north of the Bay area, see attachment - WB7ABP


Glenn Elmore
 

For those of you who are scheduled to spot all modes and are watching the results, here are some early observations.

  • The FST4W (mode5) decoder produces very different SNR reports, at least sometimes. For large SNR it can sometimes be 10-20 dB lower than WSPR (mode2). I think at this point we really can't trust it to be useful.  In theory all decoders would produce the same SNR report since that is referenced to the same 2.5 kHz noise bandwidth. the longer FST4W modes would decode lower, more negative, values. In practice it seems things are all over the map, with FST4W SNR reports often, but not always, several dB LOW of WSPR2 spots. Unknown which, if either, of these are correct, just don't trust them to mean much.
  • If using wspr.rocks to examine and compare these modes, note that FST4W mode5 is *reported* as being mode2. I am definitely transmitting 5 minute sequences on 14.097005, which by every indication are mode5, but they are getting reported as mode2. This is an error which perhaps we don't yet now the cause of. Strange because previously with single mode transmissions we did see mode5 reported.
  • When there are simultaneous transmissions in WSPR2 and FST4W, that are sending  the same transmitter ID, only *one* gets reported. Again, it's unknown to me where this filtering is occurring.  In general it may be desirable for a single mode to only report on spot interval because at VHF/UHF mains related FM may be much larger than at HF and superfluous spots add little to our knowledge.  But for different modes, clearly coming from different generators this seem in error.
  • Initial SNRs (in question, as above) for FST4W seem to go several dB lower than WSPR2. We've seen "-36" reported on an FST4W spot already, something I've never seen on WSPR2.

Until some of these issues get corrected,  perhaps our examination here may result in feedback to developers that can improve them, about the only sure-fire proof of performance we have is the observation of spots, or not, as signals get weak.  It seems useful to watch to see if the WSPR2 spots (at .+95 Hz) go away before the FST4W spots (at -95 Hz). I'll continue to run both WSPR/mode2 and FST4W/mode5 at equal powers though of course not directly comparable because of start times. I'm thinking of moving that two FST4W mode15 after we've got more data. Perhaps moving to compare FST4W mode5 and mode15 later may be interesting too.

Again, thanks for spotting.

Glenn n6gn


On 7/4/22 15:59, Glenn Elmore wrote:

WB7ABP is Lynn in Santa Rosa, CA  and we just started his TX and WD rx this AM. WB7ABP is his Yagi at 60' with WSJT-X on single mode5 while WB7ABP/K is a Kiwi on an active antenna on wsprdaemon. KP4MD near Sacramento is also now spotting FST4W.

I am now transmitting N6GN/F on 14.97005 mode5  "simultaneously" with equal power N6GN/W on 14/197195 mode2. The quotes are necessary because mode2 and mode5 are synchronous, only beginning at the same point every other 5 minute period.

But the results seems "interesting".  For one thing I had to set different transmit call signs because only one instance of a sign was getting reported by wspr.rocks.   Additionally, the time reported for mode5 is clearly often wrong.

Also I think I see  a bit of negative skew on mode5 SNR reports compared to mode2.  Probably the algorithms are different and it's hard to say how a proper comparison should be made since the measurement intervals are different and propagation does change.  On my nearby remote site SNRs are tending to be more similar though it still seems like /F is somewhat lower:

WD_3.0.3.1
2022-07-04 21:48:00 N6GN/W DN70ll N6GN/K DN70jo 14.097195 2 6 0 20 315 2 10 12 WD_3.0.3.1
2022-07-04 21:46:00 N6GN/F DN70ll N6GN/K DN70jo 14.097005 2 4 0 20 315 2 10 11 WD_3.0.3.1
2022-07-04 21:46:00 N6GN/W DN70ll N6GN/K DN70jo 14.097195 2 6 0 20 315 2 10 12 WD_3.0.3.1
2022-07-04 21:44:00 N6GN/W DN70ll N6GN/K DN70jo 14.097195 2 8 0 20 315 2 10 12 WD_3.0.3.1

For those running WD with all modes enabled, wspr as well as FST4W, you can have a look to see if your reports are similar.  I'm still trying to sort this out...


On 7/4/22 12:51, Edward Hammond wrote:
A new guy (to me) doing -300 north of the Bay area, see attachment - WB7ABP


Stuart Ogawa
 

glenn and rob,

do you want me to begin transmitting in mode 5? 

------

glenn,

adding a few recurring issues/ bugs i have encountered when using wsjt x as a beacon transmit user:

* as a beacon transmit user, i want wsjt x to nonstop transmit without having to quit and restart wsjt x when the sw reaches between 340 and 380 transmit records displayed in the main screen. (appears like a memory leak)
impact: when the wsjt x reaches between 340 and 380 transmit records displayed in the main display, the wsjt sw transmit function stops functioning and no longer attenuates the exciter (icom 7300 in my case). currently i have to quit / restart wsjt x before i head into work and do the same in the early evening in order for the beacon to continue transmitting...not doing so = no transmissions

* as a beacon transmit user, i want to transmit on the band/frequency i select from from the drop down menu on the main wsjt x main home page.  80% of the time the band/frequency displayed and that i select from the drop down menu does NOT equal the transmitted frequency.  i have to go into the wsjt x preferences / frequency table, reenter the same exact frequency, and then select done in order to transmit on the same desired frequency

above issues noted when using the mac mini m1; 16 gigs of ram.  no other applications running when transmitting.

On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 6:43 PM Glenn Elmore <n6gn@...> wrote:

For those of you who are scheduled to spot all modes and are watching the results, here are some early observations.

  • The FST4W (mode5) decoder produces very different SNR reports, at least sometimes. For large SNR it can sometimes be 10-20 dB lower than WSPR (mode2). I think at this point we really can't trust it to be useful.  In theory all decoders would produce the same SNR report since that is referenced to the same 2.5 kHz noise bandwidth. the longer FST4W modes would decode lower, more negative, values. In practice it seems things are all over the map, with FST4W SNR reports often, but not always, several dB LOW of WSPR2 spots. Unknown which, if either, of these are correct, just don't trust them to mean much.
  • If using wspr.rocks to examine and compare these modes, note that FST4W mode5 is *reported* as being mode2. I am definitely transmitting 5 minute sequences on 14.097005, which by every indication are mode5, but they are getting reported as mode2. This is an error which perhaps we don't yet now the cause of. Strange because previously with single mode transmissions we did see mode5 reported.
  • When there are simultaneous transmissions in WSPR2 and FST4W, that are sending  the same transmitter ID, only *one* gets reported. Again, it's unknown to me where this filtering is occurring.  In general it may be desirable for a single mode to only report on spot interval because at VHF/UHF mains related FM may be much larger than at HF and superfluous spots add little to our knowledge.  But for different modes, clearly coming from different generators this seem in error.
  • Initial SNRs (in question, as above) for FST4W seem to go several dB lower than WSPR2. We've seen "-36" reported on an FST4W spot already, something I've never seen on WSPR2.

Until some of these issues get corrected,  perhaps our examination here may result in feedback to developers that can improve them, about the only sure-fire proof of performance we have is the observation of spots, or not, as signals get weak.  It seems useful to watch to see if the WSPR2 spots (at .+95 Hz) go away before the FST4W spots (at -95 Hz). I'll continue to run both WSPR/mode2 and FST4W/mode5 at equal powers though of course not directly comparable because of start times. I'm thinking of moving that two FST4W mode15 after we've got more data. Perhaps moving to compare FST4W mode5 and mode15 later may be interesting too.

Again, thanks for spotting.

Glenn n6gn


On 7/4/22 15:59, Glenn Elmore wrote:

WB7ABP is Lynn in Santa Rosa, CA  and we just started his TX and WD rx this AM. WB7ABP is his Yagi at 60' with WSJT-X on single mode5 while WB7ABP/K is a Kiwi on an active antenna on wsprdaemon. KP4MD near Sacramento is also now spotting FST4W.

I am now transmitting N6GN/F on 14.97005 mode5  "simultaneously" with equal power N6GN/W on 14/197195 mode2. The quotes are necessary because mode2 and mode5 are synchronous, only beginning at the same point every other 5 minute period.

But the results seems "interesting".  For one thing I had to set different transmit call signs because only one instance of a sign was getting reported by wspr.rocks.   Additionally, the time reported for mode5 is clearly often wrong.

Also I think I see  a bit of negative skew on mode5 SNR reports compared to mode2.  Probably the algorithms are different and it's hard to say how a proper comparison should be made since the measurement intervals are different and propagation does change.  On my nearby remote site SNRs are tending to be more similar though it still seems like /F is somewhat lower:

WD_3.0.3.1
2022-07-04 21:48:00 N6GN/W DN70ll N6GN/K DN70jo 14.097195 2 6 0 20 315 2 10 12 WD_3.0.3.1
2022-07-04 21:46:00 N6GN/F DN70ll N6GN/K DN70jo 14.097005 2 4 0 20 315 2 10 11 WD_3.0.3.1
2022-07-04 21:46:00 N6GN/W DN70ll N6GN/K DN70jo 14.097195 2 6 0 20 315 2 10 12 WD_3.0.3.1
2022-07-04 21:44:00 N6GN/W DN70ll N6GN/K DN70jo 14.097195 2 8 0 20 315 2 10 12 WD_3.0.3.1

For those running WD with all modes enabled, wspr as well as FST4W, you can have a look to see if your reports are similar.  I'm still trying to sort this out...


On 7/4/22 12:51, Edward Hammond wrote:
A new guy (to me) doing -300 north of the Bay area, see attachment - WB7ABP


Glenn Elmore
 

PRobably the more transmitters the better.  Today we increased the number of potential spotters. As some of the issues get repaired we'll be able to get a better idea of relative performance.  Comparing WSPR with various lengths of FST4W and these various FST4W with each other may be interesting.

I don't think we want to generate confusion by making too many changes too quickly. My goal is to find good way(s) to verify HF FST4W works well and is better than WSPR such that people will begin to take notice and migrate. Not least in this problem is getting rid of the mode dilution, as wsprdaemon has done.

I'm currently transmitting non-stop, actually "open mic" into the SDR with no TX keying. I leave it keyed and just feed in whatever audio from the WSJT-X instances, setting power levels to be equal with a spectrum analyzer.  With mode5 that's 288 transmissions/day so I'll have to run a couple of days to see if it crashes for me (on a Windows PC).

I modified the settings:frequency so that the 20m frequency says "All" where it used to say "WSPR" that seems to give me the correct dial (suppressed carrier) frequency which when the tx tone is added gives the desired actual tx frequencies.  But actually, I'm not even using CAT to control the radio. I manually set it and left/locked it and just feed in the audio from the WSJT-X instances.

On 7/4/22 20:57, Stuart Ogawa wrote:
glenn and rob,

do you want me to begin transmitting in mode 5?

------

glenn,

adding a few recurring issues/ bugs i have encountered when using wsjt x as a beacon transmit user:

* as a beacon transmit user, i want wsjt x to nonstop transmit without having to quit and restart wsjt x when the sw reaches between 340 and 380 transmit records displayed in the main screen. (appears like a memory leak)
impact: when the wsjt x reaches between 340 and 380 transmit records displayed in the main display, the wsjt sw transmit function stops functioning and no longer attenuates the exciter (icom 7300 in my case). currently i have to quit / restart wsjt x before i head into work and do the same in the early evening in order for the beacon to continue transmitting...not doing so = no transmissions

* as a beacon transmit user, i want to transmit on the band/frequency i select from from the drop down menu on the main wsjt x main home page.  80% of the time the band/frequency displayed and that i select from the drop down menu does NOT equal the transmitted frequency.  i have to go into the wsjt x preferences / frequency table, reenter the same exact frequency, and then select done in order to transmit on the same desired frequency

above issues noted when using the mac mini m1; 16 gigs of ram.  no other applications running when transmitting.


Stuart Ogawa
 

begin 80m fst4w

t/r = 300


On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 7:57 PM Stuart Ogawa via groups.io <stuartogawa=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
glenn and rob,

do you want me to begin transmitting in mode 5? 

------

glenn,

adding a few recurring issues/ bugs i have encountered when using wsjt x as a beacon transmit user:

* as a beacon transmit user, i want wsjt x to nonstop transmit without having to quit and restart wsjt x when the sw reaches between 340 and 380 transmit records displayed in the main screen. (appears like a memory leak)
impact: when the wsjt x reaches between 340 and 380 transmit records displayed in the main display, the wsjt sw transmit function stops functioning and no longer attenuates the exciter (icom 7300 in my case). currently i have to quit / restart wsjt x before i head into work and do the same in the early evening in order for the beacon to continue transmitting...not doing so = no transmissions

* as a beacon transmit user, i want to transmit on the band/frequency i select from from the drop down menu on the main wsjt x main home page.  80% of the time the band/frequency displayed and that i select from the drop down menu does NOT equal the transmitted frequency.  i have to go into the wsjt x preferences / frequency table, reenter the same exact frequency, and then select done in order to transmit on the same desired frequency

above issues noted when using the mac mini m1; 16 gigs of ram.  no other applications running when transmitting.

On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 6:43 PM Glenn Elmore <n6gn@...> wrote:

For those of you who are scheduled to spot all modes and are watching the results, here are some early observations.

  • The FST4W (mode5) decoder produces very different SNR reports, at least sometimes. For large SNR it can sometimes be 10-20 dB lower than WSPR (mode2). I think at this point we really can't trust it to be useful.  In theory all decoders would produce the same SNR report since that is referenced to the same 2.5 kHz noise bandwidth. the longer FST4W modes would decode lower, more negative, values. In practice it seems things are all over the map, with FST4W SNR reports often, but not always, several dB LOW of WSPR2 spots. Unknown which, if either, of these are correct, just don't trust them to mean much.
  • If using wspr.rocks to examine and compare these modes, note that FST4W mode5 is *reported* as being mode2. I am definitely transmitting 5 minute sequences on 14.097005, which by every indication are mode5, but they are getting reported as mode2. This is an error which perhaps we don't yet now the cause of. Strange because previously with single mode transmissions we did see mode5 reported.
  • When there are simultaneous transmissions in WSPR2 and FST4W, that are sending  the same transmitter ID, only *one* gets reported. Again, it's unknown to me where this filtering is occurring.  In general it may be desirable for a single mode to only report on spot interval because at VHF/UHF mains related FM may be much larger than at HF and superfluous spots add little to our knowledge.  But for different modes, clearly coming from different generators this seem in error.
  • Initial SNRs (in question, as above) for FST4W seem to go several dB lower than WSPR2. We've seen "-36" reported on an FST4W spot already, something I've never seen on WSPR2.

Until some of these issues get corrected,  perhaps our examination here may result in feedback to developers that can improve them, about the only sure-fire proof of performance we have is the observation of spots, or not, as signals get weak.  It seems useful to watch to see if the WSPR2 spots (at .+95 Hz) go away before the FST4W spots (at -95 Hz). I'll continue to run both WSPR/mode2 and FST4W/mode5 at equal powers though of course not directly comparable because of start times. I'm thinking of moving that two FST4W mode15 after we've got more data. Perhaps moving to compare FST4W mode5 and mode15 later may be interesting too.

Again, thanks for spotting.

Glenn n6gn


On 7/4/22 15:59, Glenn Elmore wrote:

WB7ABP is Lynn in Santa Rosa, CA  and we just started his TX and WD rx this AM. WB7ABP is his Yagi at 60' with WSJT-X on single mode5 while WB7ABP/K is a Kiwi on an active antenna on wsprdaemon. KP4MD near Sacramento is also now spotting FST4W.

I am now transmitting N6GN/F on 14.97005 mode5  "simultaneously" with equal power N6GN/W on 14/197195 mode2. The quotes are necessary because mode2 and mode5 are synchronous, only beginning at the same point every other 5 minute period.

But the results seems "interesting".  For one thing I had to set different transmit call signs because only one instance of a sign was getting reported by wspr.rocks.   Additionally, the time reported for mode5 is clearly often wrong.

Also I think I see  a bit of negative skew on mode5 SNR reports compared to mode2.  Probably the algorithms are different and it's hard to say how a proper comparison should be made since the measurement intervals are different and propagation does change.  On my nearby remote site SNRs are tending to be more similar though it still seems like /F is somewhat lower:

WD_3.0.3.1
2022-07-04 21:48:00 N6GN/W DN70ll N6GN/K DN70jo 14.097195 2 6 0 20 315 2 10 12 WD_3.0.3.1
2022-07-04 21:46:00 N6GN/F DN70ll N6GN/K DN70jo 14.097005 2 4 0 20 315 2 10 11 WD_3.0.3.1
2022-07-04 21:46:00 N6GN/W DN70ll N6GN/K DN70jo 14.097195 2 6 0 20 315 2 10 12 WD_3.0.3.1
2022-07-04 21:44:00 N6GN/W DN70ll N6GN/K DN70jo 14.097195 2 8 0 20 315 2 10 12 WD_3.0.3.1

For those running WD with all modes enabled, wspr as well as FST4W, you can have a look to see if your reports are similar.  I'm still trying to sort this out...


On 7/4/22 12:51, Edward Hammond wrote:
A new guy (to me) doing -300 north of the Bay area, see attachment - WB7ABP


admin
 

Hi there,
I just added a new dashboard to wspr.live to give insight into the FST4W modes. Because of the known issues with wsprnet.org only data of wsprdaemon receivers with correct mode/code values are shown. Any feedback or ideas for improvements are highly appreciated.

https://wspr.live/gui/d/vhwRxD67z/wspr-mode-watch

Regards


Stuart Ogawa
 

results past 10 hours 
fst4w 80m 
mode = 5  
from San Jose, CA
 4 watts
vertical

Screen Shot 2022-07-05 at 7.57.39 AM.png


-----

results past 10 hours 
wspr 80m 
mode = 2  
from San Jose, CA
200 milliwatts
sky loop

Screen Shot 2022-07-05 at 7.58.32 AM.png


------

begin fst4w tx beacon at 15:02 UTC / 8:02AM PST
15m
mode = 5




Erwin - PE3ES - F4VTQ
 

I love it, the last 2 spots probably false decodes


Glenn Elmore
 

Since 1500 UTC today, July 5,  I am transmitting mode15 on 14.097005 with transmitter ID N6GN/F.

Both Stu, WB6YRW, and I have had some problems keeping WSJT-X running properly for longer periods so it's possible there will be quiet times in my transmission (again). I'll do my best to keep it running this way for a while and then perhaps move to Mode30.  I'm interested to see if the longer modes show clear benefit for very weak conditions as we hope.  I may include a parallel WSPR2 transmission on 14.097195 again as reference.

Until Rob gets a fix into wsprdaemon.sh code and distributed only WSJT-X decoders will properly report the mode. but my FST4W transmissions continue to be identifiable by the TX ID and frequency.

For those that can and are interested, maintaining a receiver for 20m mode15 will help provide us all with more results.

Glenn n6gn


WA2TP - Tom
 

Will you be moving to mode 30 on 40 and up?
I am currently only set for mode 30 on all below 40.

I can add -30 to upper bands, just let me know.

On Jul 5, 2022, at 1:03 PM, Glenn Elmore <n6gn@...> wrote:


Since 1500 UTC today, July 5, I am transmitting mode15 on 14.097005 with transmitter ID N6GN/F.

Both Stu, WB6YRW, and I have had some problems keeping WSJT-X running properly for longer periods so it's possible there will be quiet times in my transmission (again). I'll do my best to keep it running this way for a while and then perhaps move to Mode30. I'm interested to see if the longer modes show clear benefit for very weak conditions as we hope. I may include a parallel WSPR2 transmission on 14.097195 again as reference.

Until Rob gets a fix into wsprdaemon.sh code and distributed only WSJT-X decoders will properly report the mode. but my FST4W transmissions continue to be identifiable by the TX ID and frequency.

For those that can and are interested, maintaining a receiver for 20m mode15 will help provide us all with more results.

Glenn n6gn






Stuart Ogawa
 

glenn,

have you successfully  tx'ed wsjt x fst4w on 30m?

i receive an error message.

i am at work and cannot remote access / screen grab that wsjt x fst4w user error message.

content was something like 'wsjt x will not knowingly transmit on a wspr frequency

i checked the preferences/frequency table for 30m fstw4...standard default setup

On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 10:20 AM WA2TP - Tom <myis300@...> wrote:
Will you be moving to mode 30 on 40 and up?
I am currently only set for mode 30 on all below 40.

I can add -30 to upper bands, just let me know.

> On Jul 5, 2022, at 1:03 PM, Glenn Elmore <n6gn@...> wrote:
>
> 
> Since 1500 UTC today, July 5,  I am transmitting mode15 on 14.097005 with transmitter ID N6GN/F.
>
> Both Stu, WB6YRW, and I have had some problems keeping WSJT-X running properly for longer periods so it's possible there will be quiet times in my transmission (again). I'll do my best to keep it running this way for a while and then perhaps move to Mode30.  I'm interested to see if the longer modes show clear benefit for very weak conditions as we hope.  I may include a parallel WSPR2 transmission on 14.097195 again as reference.
>
> Until Rob gets a fix into wsprdaemon.sh code and distributed only WSJT-X decoders will properly report the mode. but my FST4W transmissions continue to be identifiable by the TX ID and frequency.
>
> For those that can and are interested, maintaining a receiver for 20m mode15 will help provide us all with more results.
>
> Glenn n6gn
>
>
>
>
>
>






KD2OM
 

Glen,
When you say 14.097005, is that dial?

Steve KD2OM

Sent from my iPhone.

On Jul 5, 2022, at 13:03, Glenn Elmore <n6gn@...> wrote:


Since 1500 UTC today, July 5, I am transmitting mode15 on 14.097005 with transmitter ID N6GN/F.

Both Stu, WB6YRW, and I have had some problems keeping WSJT-X running properly for longer periods so it's possible there will be quiet times in my transmission (again). I'll do my best to keep it running this way for a while and then perhaps move to Mode30. I'm interested to see if the longer modes show clear benefit for very weak conditions as we hope. I may include a parallel WSPR2 transmission on 14.097195 again as reference.

Until Rob gets a fix into wsprdaemon.sh code and distributed only WSJT-X decoders will properly report the mode. but my FST4W transmissions continue to be identifiable by the TX ID and frequency.

For those that can and are interested, maintaining a receiver for 20m mode15 will help provide us all with more results.

Glenn n6gn






Stuart Ogawa
 

@ tom, short answer is yes.

the plan is to fst4w beacon tx the 80 to 10m bands from my location

without the wsjt x band hopper feature, i will manually change bands = high hf bands during the day and low hf bands during the night...for now

30m wsjt x transmit fst4w i think has an issue/bug...i am performing some workaround tests...but all other fst4w bands will broadcasted.

once i have the qrp qdx exciters and two dell workstations operational, then i will be able to beacon tx 3 bands simultaneously.



On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 11:46 AM KD2OM <steve@...> wrote:
Glen,
When you say 14.097005, is that dial?

Steve KD2OM

.


> On Jul 5, 2022, at 13:03, Glenn Elmore <n6gn@...> wrote:
>
> 
> Since 1500 UTC today, July 5,  I am transmitting mode15 on 14.097005 with transmitter ID N6GN/F.
>
> Both Stu, WB6YRW, and I have had some problems keeping WSJT-X running properly for longer periods so it's possible there will be quiet times in my transmission (again). I'll do my best to keep it running this way for a while and then perhaps move to Mode30.  I'm interested to see if the longer modes show clear benefit for very weak conditions as we hope.  I may include a parallel WSPR2 transmission on 14.097195 again as reference.
>
> Until Rob gets a fix into wsprdaemon.sh code and distributed only WSJT-X decoders will properly report the mode. but my FST4W transmissions continue to be identifiable by the TX ID and frequency.
>
> For those that can and are interested, maintaining a receiver for 20m mode15 will help provide us all with more results.
>
> Glenn n6gn
>
>
>
>
>
>







Glenn Elmore
 

No, since same actual frequency can be obtained with many different dials by adjusting tx audio to be something different from [1500] Hz.  I always mean actual transmitted band center for the mode which is what is reported by the by the databases.

Glenn n6gn

On 7/5/22 12:45, KD2OM wrote:
Glen,
When you say 14.097005, is that dial?

Steve KD2OM

Sent from my iPhone.

On Jul 5, 2022, at 13:03, Glenn Elmore <n6gn@...> wrote:


Since 1500 UTC today, July 5, I am transmitting mode15 on 14.097005 with transmitter ID N6GN/F.

Both Stu, WB6YRW, and I have had some problems keeping WSJT-X running properly for longer periods so it's possible there will be quiet times in my transmission (again). I'll do my best to keep it running this way for a while and then perhaps move to Mode30. I'm interested to see if the longer modes show clear benefit for very weak conditions as we hope. I may include a parallel WSPR2 transmission on 14.097195 again as reference.

Until Rob gets a fix into wsprdaemon.sh code and distributed only WSJT-X decoders will properly report the mode. but my FST4W transmissions continue to be identifiable by the TX ID and frequency.

For those that can and are interested, maintaining a receiver for 20m mode15 will help provide us all with more results.

Glenn n6gn









Glenn Elmore
 

Stu,

I can't remember but I think I have. But I've upgraded to WSJT-Xv2.5.4 since then so things may have  changed. I did set 14.095600 dial to be  correct for all modes in the settings:frequency tab though so I can't see why changing mode in FST4W would matter, though it needs to be tested. I am getting the impression that FST4W has not been extensively tested by the developers, both in terms of stability and function in corner cases.

I'm presently transmitting mode15 and will be dropping power to get down to a level that is  harder for spotters and that would not produce spots with WSPR2. I just dropped it to 1W but will continue as far as necessary in order  to see some -30's if possible.  

If that is successful  and I see some ~-34 or lower reports I'll try Mode30.   I may continue to  drop power way down to see what my remote receiver does. That 12 mile path is very stable and I'll probably have to drop 60 dB, to below 1 microwatt, to test it but I have attenuators and power measurement equipment so this shouldn't be a problem. At that level I wouldn't expect any other spots though 10 dB above that level I might get a few.  In the past 1 mW has generated several with WSPR2.


On 7/5/22 11:27, Stuart Ogawa wrote:

glenn,

have you successfully  tx'ed wsjt x fst4w on 30m?

i receive an error message.

i am at work and cannot remote access / screen grab that wsjt x fst4w user error message.

content was something like 'wsjt x will not knowingly transmit on a wspr frequency

i checked the preferences/frequency table for 30m fstw4...standard default setup

On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 10:20 AM WA2TP - Tom <myis300@...> wrote:
Will you be moving to mode 30 on 40 and up?
I am currently only set for mode 30 on all below 40.

I can add -30 to upper bands, just let me know.

> On Jul 5, 2022, at 1:03 PM, Glenn Elmore <n6gn@...> wrote:
>
> 
> Since 1500 UTC today, July 5,  I am transmitting mode15 on 14.097005 with transmitter ID N6GN/F.
>
> Both Stu, WB6YRW, and I have had some problems keeping WSJT-X running properly for longer periods so it's possible there will be quiet times in my transmission (again). I'll do my best to keep it running this way for a while and then perhaps move to Mode30.  I'm interested to see if the longer modes show clear benefit for very weak conditions as we hope.  I may include a parallel WSPR2 transmission on 14.097195 again as reference.
>
> Until Rob gets a fix into wsprdaemon.sh code and distributed only WSJT-X decoders will properly report the mode. but my FST4W transmissions continue to be identifiable by the TX ID and frequency.
>
> For those that can and are interested, maintaining a receiver for 20m mode15 will help provide us all with more results.
>
> Glenn n6gn
>
>
>
>
>
>






WA2TP - Tom
 

As of 2240 I am set to receive all bands, all FST4w modes, 2200m-10m on 64 Rx.