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sticky Members Removed for Marking Messages as spam #Group_Management

Chris_Jones
 

Ever since the migration from Yahoo in early December 2017 there have been occasions when individuals have been unceremoniously removed from membership by Groups.io, with the notification that they had (apparently) marked a message as "spam".

We finally started to get to grips with this last weekend, and if nothing else it has become apparent that it may well have been (or perhaps is more likely to have been) the member's ISP or ESP (Email Service Provider, which may not necessarily be their ISP) that marked a message as spam.

As an interim measure a new page has been put into the wiki section of this Group in the hope of trying to provide a better explanation of what happens and how individual members can minimise the effects of this automated process.

Please note that this new wiki page is a "work in progress" and is not yet finalised; we are hoping for change in the wording of the notifications sent to members and moderators which if nothing else should prevent people being completely caught out about what has happened to them if they find themselves in the position of being "dismembered". The work of writing and editing this wiki is being undertaken on a Group Managers' Forum*; it is a common problem that has affected many members and Groups.

Please take the time to read this new wiki page just in case you are next in line! Any significant changes to the page will be announced in a further posting in this thread.

* This Group is represented on the Forum

Keith, Chris S & Chris J / Owner & Moderators.

zerodeebee <ei0db@...>
 

Hi, thank you gnomes for the update.  This sort of thing and being "dismembered" for not logging in, [something I rarely would do, relying on the flow back and forth of email] and the amount of effort it is causing the gnomes.  Suggests to me  maybe the migration over to groups.io  was not such a brilliant move as was thought at first. I could of course put it stronger in best Navy vernacular but save you the extra work editing.


From a West of Ireland drenched in Sunshine today, best 73s,

                                                            Dave in Ireland  G4JHT/EI0DB/VP8ART

On 03/20/2018 07:35 PM, Chris_Jones wrote:
Ever since the migration from Yahoo in early December 2017 there have been occasions when individuals have been unceremoniously removed from membership by Groups.io, with the notification that they had (apparently) marked a message as "spam".

We finally started to get to grips with this last weekend, and if nothing else it has become apparent that it may well have been (or perhaps /is more likely to have been/) the member's ISP or ESP (Email Service Provider, which may not necessarily be their ISP) that marked a message as spam.

As an interim measure a new page has been put into the wiki section of this Group in the hope of trying to provide a better explanation of what happens and how individual members can minimise the effects of this automated process.

Please note that this new wiki page is a "work in progress" and is not yet finalised; we are hoping for change in the wording of the notifications sent to members and moderators which if nothing else should prevent people being completely caught out about what has happened to them if they find themselves in the position of being "dismembered". The work of writing and editing this wiki is being undertaken on a Group Managers' Forum*; it is a common problem that has affected many members and Groups.

Please take the time to read this new wiki page just in case you are next in line! Any significant changes to the page will be announced in a further posting in this thread.

* This Group is represented on the Forum

Keith, Chris S & Chris J / Owner & Moderators.

Chris_Suslowicz
 

Dave (EI0DB) wrote:

Hi, thank you gnomes for the update. This sort of thing and being "dismembered" for not logging in, [something I rarely would do, relying on the flow back and forth of email] and the amount of effort it is causing the gnomes. Suggests to me maybe the migration over to groups.io was not such a brilliant move as was thought at first.
As far as this gnome has been able to tell:

People do not get unsubscribed for "failure to log on via the web interface" with groups.io - but that certainly used to happen with Yahoo groups, plus the 'yahoo id' could then be acquired by someone else, which would give them access to any stored email from the previous 'owner'. The sole restriction was that it would not happen to a group moderator id. I think the "unsubscribed for inactivity" rumour came from someone who got it backwards, either accidentally or deliberately.

The "unsubscribed because a message was marked as spam" is self-defence by groups.io (to avoid being blacklisted by an infestation of spammers), but is happening because of misbehaviour by certain ISPs (AOL, possibly BT) who have a spam filter mechanism that a) generates false positives, and b) sends a rejection message (or spam report, I don't know which) back to the presumed source of the message _when_it_puts_the_suspect_message_into_the _user's_spam_folder_, and does not give the user any choice in this matter. AOL has been taken over by Verizon (who also own Yahoo) and are supposedly rebranding it "Oath". This gnome can think of a few oaths to use on them.

The service is not clogged with adverts.

The moderation process is virtually instant.

It doesn't appear to lose copies of your own postings (something Yahoo was notorious for).

Minor niggles (with my pointy moderator hat on):

Approving a message that has already been approved gets you a bounce message.
There's no "X-Approved by:" message header, which can be useful to have.

The photo section needs work, but it may be better to store photos and files elsewhere anyway.

Just my arrogant opinion, of course.

Chris. (G8KGS)
Junior Password Gnome

Chris_Jones
 

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 01:13 pm, zerodeebee wrote:
This sort of thing and being "dismembered" for not logging in, [something I rarely would do, relying on the flow back and forth of email]
There is some evidence that "not logging in" from time to time resulting in dismemberment may be an urban myth as far as Groups.io is concerned; we can perhaps try to get a definitive answer once some of the other clouds of dust have settled. However, we would hope that members will log in from time to time in order to keep up to date on anything that might have been put in the wiki pages. Anything that might be an important change is likely to be announced in a message post anyway.

There is an update about Email Service Providers that feed back "marked as spam" information resulting in the automated cancellation of memberships that is the subject of this thread and the new wiki entry: Groups.io is reportedly signed up with the following for the implementation of a feedback loop: aol.com, outlook.com, rr.com, earthlink.net, yahoo.com, so it seems any members whose email service provided is by one of those are at the greatest risk of having an email marked as spam without their knowledge and being automatically removed as a result.

More information as and when it arises...

Chris / G8GFB / Moderator

Dave G4UGM <g4ugm@...>
 

Chris,

   I am forced by the group admins to use my BTINTERNET address as my e-mail address for this group, as otherwise i can't download documents. This is the only list I use it for. As the "service" is still provided by Yahoo its not especially great, as noted elsewhere it frequently marks legitimate messages as SPAM, and I believe it sometimes simply discards mail. BT seem to have stopped migrating away from Yahoo so it looks like I am stuck with it. I would much prefer to use my gmail account but that is not permitted. Its no less reliable as identification as I can set up and delete BT Internet addresses at will, with no checks as to whether they match my name. I friend uses "Jim Smith" even though his forname is "Bill" and his surname isn't Smith. So please consider relaxing this rule,

As to why mails get marked as Spam, I am sure we have all seen "Please unsubscribe me" mails from folks who are too lazy to do it themselves. The real lazy ones just hit "Mark as Spam" and after enough folks have done that the service is marked as Spam. AOL is especially bad at this. Many folks say its great as they get no spam. This is true but i am pretty sure they miss many important messages as well.

As for logging in to the site, thats never required. You won't lose your account. You never need to remember your password, groups.io will always e-mail you a log-in link that does not need a password if you ask. So stay calm and keep enjoying vintage military radio.

Dave 
G4UGM

G0OZS
 

Chris, all

For what it's worth, a related issue I have with the Felixstowe and District Amateur Radio Society forum which I host is that migrated BTInternet accounts (from BT Yahoo to CPCloud) generate false positives for large numbers of messages if they are forwarded via a 3rd party mail redirection service (so sending IP doesn't belong to the same organisation as the ISP in the FROM: header). This happens if for example someone registers mycallsign@... with the redirection service and the redirection service forwards the message  to my.real.name@... .

What comes back is a series of error messages from CPCloud along the lines of "No further messages will be accepted from your IP x.x.x.x unless they are added to the SPF record for domain.of.forumserver.com " because X.X.X.X belongs to redirectionservice.com - the problem occurs because the forum sends one daily digest message per day and has 2 or 3 members who subscribe to the same redirection service so BTinternet CPCloud sees 3 messages from the same "misconfigured" source to different mailboxes at around the same time.

Either of the normal ways to configure a list server or bulk mail sender (to keep the original poster's from: address or to change the from: address to one associated with the list server) fails in this scenario because neither can update the SPF (Sender Policy Framework) records for the redirection service IP address(es) - ultimately I think e-mail based discussion groups are going to become unsustainable due to issues like this and web-based forums are all that will be left for those who don't want to remain self-hosted and never go to the dark side with Facebook :(

I also see my own mails via this group flagged as "probable SPAM" by my btconnect.com account (hosted by Microsoft Office 365) because the "From" address is preserved as @G0OZS but the sending server is groups.io

Iain
73 de G0OZS

Robert Tevault
 

I also have had some E-Mails put in the Spam box. I didn't do it.Only after looking in to that Spam index did I discover them.  KC9TRV Ted


On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 7:21 AM, G0OZS <g0ozs@...> wrote:


Chris, all

For what it's worth, a related issue I have with the Felixstowe and
District Amateur Radio Society forum which I host is that migrated
BTInternet accounts (from BT Yahoo to CPCloud) generate false positives
for large numbers of messages if they are forwarded via a 3rd party mail
redirection service (so sending IP doesn't belong to the same
organisation as the ISP in the FROM: header). This happens if for
example someone registers mycallsign@... with the
redirection service and the redirection service forwards the message  to
my.real.name@... .

What comes back is a series of error messages from CPCloud along the
lines of "No further messages will be accepted from your IP x.x.x.x
unless they are added to the SPF record for domain.of.forumserver.com "
because X.X.X.X belongs to redirectionservice.com - the problem occurs
because the forum sends one daily digest message per day and has 2 or 3
members who subscribe to the same redirection service so BTinternet
CPCloud sees 3 messages from the same "misconfigured" source to
different mailboxes at around the same time.

Either of the normal ways to configure a list server or bulk mail sender
(to keep the original poster's from: address or to change the from:
address to one associated with the list server) fails in this scenario
because neither can update the SPF (Sender Policy Framework) records for
the redirection service IP address(es) - ultimately I think e-mail based
discussion groups are going to become unsustainable due to issues like
this and web-based forums are all that will be left for those who don't
want to remain self-hosted and never go to the dark side with Facebook :(

I also see my own mails via this group flagged as "probable SPAM" by my
btconnect.com account (hosted by Microsoft Office 365) because the
"From" address is preserved as g0ozs@... but the sending
server is groups.io

Iain
73 de G0OZS





Chris_Jones
 

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 04:21 am, G0OZS wrote:
...ultimately I think e-mail based discussion groups are going to become unsustainable due to issues like this and web-based forums are all that will be left for those who don't want to remain self-hosted...
I suspect you could be right, and it would be a pity if that happened. The probability gets greater with increased levels of cleverness being adopted by users (redirection) and providers (spam detection and prevention) with the latter wrapping the whole thing in as much opacity as possible. From the standpoint of the "average user" (and I don't just mean users of "groups", wherever they are hosted) this is a compolete pain; users* just want emails to work and all sorts of trickery between sender and receiver is something they don't want to know about, and neither should they have to. I'd better stop this line of thinking or I'll trigger an outbreak of <meldrewmode> and it will take days to shake it off.

On the plus side using the Groups.io web interface is a joy compared to trying to do the same on Yahoo.

In other news, I believe hotmail should be included in the list of mail providers that use spam reporting loops back to senders such as Groups.io

* that includes me.

Chris / G8GFB

G0OZS
 

Chris

I realise I made an important wording error - I should have written " .... all that will be left for those who _do_ want to remain self-hosted rather than use Facebook etc. ..." but I think you got my intended meaning. I converted the FDARS mailing list to a YaBB web forum from an e-mail list server several years ago because the effort to keep spam out and keep messages being delivered was growing exponentially - unfortunately anti-SPAM measures tend to be designed for and by the larger platform operators :(

Iain

73 de G0OZS



On 21/03/2018 16:38, Chris_Jones via Groups.Io wrote:
On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 04:21 am, G0OZS wrote:
...ultimately I think e-mail based discussion groups are going to become unsustainable due to issues like this and web-based forums are all that will be left for those who don't want to remain self-hosted...
I suspect you could be right, and it would be a pity if that happened. The probability gets greater with increased levels of cleverness being adopted by users (redirection) and providers (spam detection and prevention) with the latter wrapping the whole thing in as much opacity as possible. From the standpoint of the "average user" (and I don't just mean users of "groups", wherever they are hosted) this is a compolete pain; users* just want emails to work and all sorts of trickery between sender and receiver is something they don't want to know about, and neither should they have to. I'd better stop this line of thinking or I'll trigger an outbreak of <meldrewmode> and it will take days to shake it off.

On the plus side using the Groups.io web interface is a joy compared to trying to do the same on Yahoo.

In other news, I believe hotmail should be included in the list of mail providers that use spam reporting loops back to senders such as Groups.io

* that includes me.

Chris / G8GFB

Chris_Jones
 

An update: the (different) messages sent to Members and Group Owners (which includes Moderators) have now been edited to better explain what has, or may have, happened. The wiki page mentioned above in the first post in this thread will be edited later today (all other things being equal) to reflect this change.

One important point to note is that if this happens to "you" is that you must have a look in your Spam Box to see if your Email Service Provider has shunted a Groups.io message into it. If it has please do not just delete it, or wait for your ESP to delete it automatically; mark it as Not Spam in the hope that your ESP's automated process has a chance to "learn" not to do it.

Only then should you click on the "Resume Subscription" link in the notification, assuming of course that you want to retain your membership.

For the record one unfortunate member seems to have been booted out twice in the space of 3 or 4 days; although this is not "statistically valid" it points to aol's spam determination to be somewhat over-enthusiastic in its work. In both cases he resumed his subscription.

Chris / G8GFB

Chris_Jones
 

Another member has been auto-deleted overnight, and has yet to rejoin (we hope he will) and has not so far responded to the request to forward the message from Groups.io telling him of his dismemberment to me. Knowing (very roughly) his location it might be early morning there.

Can I ask that if any member finds themselves in the position of having their membership automatically cancelled to forward the notification received from Groups.io either to me direct or to the "Group Owner" email address.

An updated list of the Mail Service Providers most likely to cause this is in preparation and will be released as soon as practicable.

Chris / G8GFB

CarloVanGestel
 

 

I have not been dismembered, so this is slightly off topic.

At the end of last year I tried to download a few EMER’s, and got the remark that this was suspended because I showed no activity in the previous 6 months.
I then did my best for a while, and recently could download sucessfully.

I am not a great writer, but do follow the group mail with large interest. I’ll try to give some news from time to time: must that news always be related to radio-Eqt and similar? Or may it also be e.g. family news?

 

Sincerely.

Carlo VAN GESTEL;

Home address: ’s HerenLei 7, in B-2550 KONTICH, Belgium;

Home Phone +32 (0)3457.8093; Mobile Phone +32 (0)495.251.237.

E-mail: carlo@...

 

Chris_Jones
 

On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 01:12 pm, CarloVanGestel wrote:
I’ll try to give some news from time to time: must that news always be related to radio-Eqt and similar? Or may it also be e.g. family news?
Radio related I rather think. Family news is unlikely to have much appeal beyond the family concerned.

Chris / G8GFB

Chris_Jones
 

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 12:35 pm, Chris_Jones wrote:
As an interim measure a new page has been put into the wiki section of this Group in the hope of trying to provide a better explanation of what happens and how individual members can minimise the effects of this automated process.
A later version of this wiki guidance note has now been posted. Members are advised to have a read of it because it may help get them out of trouble if they are automatically deleted from membership, and may even help prevent that happening in the first place.

Chris / G8GFB

CarloVanGestel
 

Dear Chris Jones,

Thanks for this information.

How do I access the wiki section to find the guidance note? I logged in to Groups.io, without success.

Thanks and 73.

Carlo VAN GESTEL; E-mail: carlo@...

 

Van: wireless-set-no19@groups.io <wireless-set-no19@groups.io> Namens Chris_Jones via Groups.Io
Verzonden: woensdag 4 april 2018 12:39
Aan: wireless-set-no19@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [wireless-set-no19] Members Removed for Marking Messages as spam

 

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 12:35 pm, Chris_Jones wrote:

As an interim measure a new page has been put into the wiki section of this Group in the hope of trying to provide a better explanation of what happens and how individual members can minimise the effects of this automated process.

A later version of this wiki guidance note has now been posted. Members are advised to have a read of it because it may help get them out of trouble if they are automatically deleted from membership, and may even help prevent that happening in the first place.

Chris / G8GFB

Chris_Jones
 

On Wed, Apr 4, 2018 at 07:50 am, CarloVanGestel wrote:
How do I access the wiki section to find the guidance note?
1: Go to the Groups.io front page.
2: Select Log In
3. On Log In page enter the relevant details, including the green tab!
    At this point you should have a list of the Groups of which you are a member.
4: Select wireless-set-no19
    This will take you to the Group, with "Messages" being the default display.
5: On the left hand side there is a side bar; scroll down to the bottom where there is a tab for Wiki. Click on it.
    Members Removed for Marking Messages as Spam is No 3 in the list.

As a minor point the numbering of the documents is subject to change as and when additional entries are made to the Wiki section.

Hope that helps.

Chris / G8GFB

CarloVanGestel
 

SECOND TRY:

Thanks Chris Jones,

I duly found the text, al be it after soms searching at the end:

After selecting wireless-set-no19 , I got the "Messages" display. But scrolling down only gave me endless msgs; until I tried on the lower edge of the screen a button MORE with three horizontal lines. That gave me several tabs, among which WIKI, and from there on all was well.

Thanks again. Carlo VAN GESTEL; E-mail: carlo@...

 

Chris_Jones
 

The wiki page on this subject has been updated with more Service Providers added and what is hopefully some better and more comprehensive guidance of particular relevance to members who use an Email Client rather than their Mail Service Provider's UI.

For ease of access you can find the wiki page here.

This wiki is subject to ongoing amendment based on discussions on a Groups.io "management forum". 

Chris / G8GFB