Date   
Re: Canadian WS 19 Transmit Spectrum

Woodie
 

Hi Frans,

CW only as my current 540 Volt supply has its negative terminal grounded. I’ll see if I can find a point in the 80 meter band where the sidebands are close to the carrier frequency and listen to the signal to see if the sidebands become audible. Other than that, I think I’ve taken this as far as needed for on air testing.

My set produces just over 20 Watts output into my Aeroflex 2944B (Marconi) with 33 Watts input, so I think that a usable QRP signal.

Many thanks!

Woodie
K1UAX

On Dec 9, 2019, at 2:50 AM, empelf <empel@...> wrote:

Hi Woodie,

Did you measure the set in R/T mode or in CW ?
Since CW is using the PA in A-class it there shows  a much better behaviour than with AM ( B class ).

I don't believe that -33 dBc will cause any practical problem.
If you look at the relevant numbers of a linear ( with valves ), there unwanted products are of the same order of magnitude and will cause
 spurious transmissions at a much higher power level  than a 19 set !
A Drake L7 claims its Intermodulation Products to be better than -33 dBc at 1500 W .......
Further the combined effect of a tuner and the antenna itself will reduce the actual transmitted spurious signals even further.
Given the power of a 19 set the effect will be negligible.

My investigations have been initiated by an audible tone in an unmodulated AM signal.

I wish you a lot of pleasure with your WS 19.

73,

Frans   PA0FVE




Re: Canadian WS 19 Transmit Spectrum

empelf
 

Hello Jacques,

1st. The set I measured on was NOT modified according  the Mod. instructions you mentioned.

2nd I am aware of the quality of  the 75 year old capacitors.
I have seen sets where all capacitors were replaced !
So far I myself only have replaced the parts with a measured bad property (  a faulty C or  a changed resistance value of an R  ).
During my investigations I sometimes temporary have soldered a good C in parallel.
In order to be able to observe an unwanted HF signal I have used an HF clamp current probe with a spectrum analyzer.

So far I have not seen any 19 set of the more than 15 MK II's and MKIII's ( of many brands ) that I have investigated without these spurious signals.
Unfortunately I did not check whether  the Mod's were implemented so I am curious to see your results.

73,

Frans   PA0FVE



Re: Canadian WS 19 Transmit Spectrum

empelf
 

Hi Woodie,

Did you measure the set in R/T mode or in CW ?
Since CW is using the PA in A-class it there shows  a much better behaviour than with AM ( B class ).

I don't believe that -33 dBc will cause any practical problem.
If you look at the relevant numbers of a linear ( with valves ), there unwanted products are of the same order of magnitude and will cause
 spurious transmissions at a much higher power level  than a 19 set !
A Drake L7 claims its Intermodulation Products to be better than -33 dBc at 1500 W .......
Further the combined effect of a tuner and the antenna itself will reduce the actual transmitted spurious signals even further.
Given the power of a 19 set the effect will be negligible.

My investigations have been initiated by an audible tone in an unmodulated AM signal.

I wish you a lot of pleasure with your WS 19.

73,

Frans   PA0FVE



 

Re: Canadian WS 19 Transmit Spectrum

Jacques_VE2JFE
 

Hello Frans,

 

For the T2A failures, we are on the same page, that’s OK.

 

For the Transmit Spectrum, I do not remember having experienced any strange behavior from “our” WS #19s in the time we were using those extensively at the beginning of the 70’s,

But, as being all sold as surplus coming from the Canadian Forces, the two RCAs and the one NE were all “updated” with the application of the #2 and #7 modification instructions, the fourth set in the “group” being a British E.K.Cole.

I believe that the behavior you experienced and documented is related to the Mod. Instruction #7, but I will have to run some tests with my RCA set in some near future.

The only set I have used a lot recently is the E.K.Cole, after I had completely rebuilt it.

I experienced some problems on it due to intermittent grounds, but once fixed, I do not seen any “bad” behavior in R/T or CW transmit modes.

On another hand, running those 75 years old sets with their original PIO capacitors still onboard can lead to any deviant behavior, especially from the Sprague capacitors used in the RCA Victor sets (the Aerovox used in the Northern Electric sets behaves better, even after all this time).

 

73, Jacques, VE2JFE

Re: Canadian WS 19 Transmit Spectrum

Woodie
 

Hello Frans & Jacques,

Just to complete the loop a bit, my Northern Electric Mark III has Mods 2 & 7 (and others). I did a quick alignment and still get the sidebands at amplitudes from undetectable to 33 db below the carrier across the 80 & 40 meter bands. I had hoped to use my set on 80 meter CW, but am a bit concerned that the spurious signals may cause a small bit of interference, although I wouldn’t expect much from 20 mW. What is the groups experience with this?

Many thanks,

Woodie

On Dec 7, 2019, at 12:07 PM, Jacques_VE2JFE <jacques.f@...> wrote:

Hello Frans,
 
Your answer raises two more questions:
1_ When you mention: only the capacitors of the LF amplifier ( V3A ) have been replaced.
Reason was my fear to blow up the LF transformer ( what proved later on to be caused by something totally different).
What is the cause of so many T2A primary failures then ?
 
2_ Does the F 257/3 Mod. Instr. # 2 and #7 were applied to the sets you measured ?
 
73, Jacques, VE2JFE

Re: 2nd Lt J R R Tolkien; Signals Officer.

AllanIsaacs
 

I can recommend

Listening In: Intercepting German Trench Communications in World War I 

which is written from a French/US perspective and includes TPS comms with details of the SCR-71 & 72 etc.

Allan G3PIY


From: wireless-set-no19@groups.io [mailto:wireless-set-no19@groups.io] On Behalf Of seamushk@...
Sent: 08 December 2019 12:23
To: wireless-set-no19@groups.io
Subject: Re: [wireless-set-no19] 2nd Lt J R R Tolkien; Signals Officer.

 

Thanks Sean.
Much obliged for your interest

Seamus

_._,_._,_

 

Re: 2nd Lt J R R Tolkien; Signals Officer.

SH_K
 

Thanks Sean.
Much obliged for your interest

Seamus

Something different for Christmas?

MichaelBuckley
 

Page last updated on: Sunday, December 8, 2019

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Re: Canadian WS 19 Transmit Spectrum

empelf
 



 Hello Jacques,

Indeed many L.F. transformers in a 19 set do fail.
In my opinion the failure of the T2A's primary is caused by an excessive current.
I have seen such a failure and in that case also measured a leaky cathode capacitor ( C16 A ).
The cathode resistors-to-earth are bypassed and thus the negative bias voltage of the grid will (in the case of an electrical breakdown in C16A ) disappear completely.
Consequently the idle anode current of V3A will be high and the the primary of T2A will be heated and fail.
In principle also a faulty valve V3A can be the cause but I never have seen such a case.
Anyhow I always test the cathode voltage of V3A.

In a nutshell.
An excessive current in its primary will cause a failure of the L.F. transformer.

That's why I removed C16A as, by coincidence,  can be seen in the picture of  the measurement set up....
However that time I was lucky since the cause of  "a strange smell" was my soldering iron   ;-)

In order to be able to answer your 2nd question I first have to open that 19 set....
This will take some time !

73,

Frans

Re: 2nd Lt J R R Tolkien; Signals Officer.

R_A_Fowell_KJ6CBA
 

>> WW1 was mostly static and communications was by line

> Or by runners.

And dispatch riders ...

While that was the rule, visual signals were used on occasion, particularly when things got fluid.

Tolkien was at the Battle of the Somme - here's a Sept. 1916 photo of a British heliograph station during that battle:
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205072698

A good history of British Signal Service in WWI in Europe is Priestley's 1921 book[1], which includes numerous accounts of the use of wireless, and a few (5 citations in the index) mentions of my pet instrument, the heliograph.

The German retreat in March 1917 (pages 257-282) saw an upsurge in two-way visual signaling (lamps, heliographs, flags).
Here's a photo of a heliograph in action at the Battle of Arras, April 1917: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205237354


The British retreat of March 21, 1918 (pp 262-263), likewise saw an upsurge in the utility of visual and wireless:

(p263) "Prisoners since repatriated have told how the wireless sets, by enabling them to keep touch with their more fortunate comrades, put heart into defenders who felt they were in a hopeless position and encouraged them to fight to the last."

(p263) "It was not until the afternoon that visual became possible, but when the mist rose it was used to great extent ... between Brigade and Division in the second and third line positions heliograph was used with success and the Lucas lamp proved its usefulness again and again ... long distance work was somewhat hampered by the reduction that had taken place in the number of heliographs issued to forward troops. Their place was, however, fairly successfully filled by the Lucas lamp which proved an efficient substitute over most of the distances involved. Bearing in mind the usual European climate with its large proportion of overcast weather, there is no doubt that, in spite of such isolated cases as the present, the withdrawal of the heliograph was more than justified by the saving in transport effected and by the greater simplicity rendered possible in the training of reinforcements."

(p275) ... formations retreating at random could only ogtain touch through the medium of tehir wireless sets, or by utilizing favourable opportunities for the establishment of visual stations. For lateral communication, especially, visual was invaluable. In the rear areas the Lucas lamp was the main means used, with the heliograph as substitute on isolated occasion" ... "In one Division, visual was the sole means available between Division and Brigade for three days, and 50 messages a day were disposed of by the visual stations.  This was exceptional, however, and implied a breakdown in other methods of intercommunication."

Of course, eventually it was the German retreat again - here's a battlefield heliograph photo from the Battle of Amiens, 9 August 1918:

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205219558

 

[1] Priestley, R. E. (Raymond Edward). (1921). The Signal service in the European war of 1914 to 1918: (France). Chatham: W. & J. Mackay & co., limited.
    It is available online here (in the USA, at least): https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc2.ark:/13960/t3mw2km8w&view=2up&seq=16

 

Re: 2nd Lt J R R Tolkien; Signals Officer.

Chris_Suslowicz
 

Clive wrote:

Hello Sean,

Oh, go with the archived version. 

What is the archive coordinate? I would like to see what else is there.

http://www.royalsignals.org.uk/

(Due to massive abuse in the past, it's restricted to 6 documents in a rolling 14-day period. Just follow the instructions.)

Chris. (G8KGS)
Junior Password Gnome.

Re: 2nd Lt J R R Tolkien; Signals Officer.

Clive Redfern
 

Hello Sean,

Oh, go with the archived version. 

What is the archive coordinate? I would like to see what else is there.

Clive

Re: 2nd Lt J R R Tolkien; Signals Officer.

Chris_Suslowicz
 

Clive, which book do you have? (If it's Instruction in Army Telegraphy and Telephony, then it's in the archive and there's no need to risk scanning your copy.)

Best regards,
Chris. (G8KGS)

Hi Sean,

I have an overhead camera arrangement, so no actual contact with the book.
Nevertheless, the act of flattening the book stresses the old and yellowed binding and the rather crisp old pages.
As I offered, if there's some specific entry that you need then I'll copy it.

I'll dig out the old British keys that I have (illustrated in the book) and image them together with other parts of the station equipment - receiving galvanometer, relays, etcetera. I have a complete station circuit except for batteries.

I also have a couple of Deutsch pieces from the WW1 and a US Navy spark key of that period too..

Joseph Junker didn't develop/patent his key until circa 1926 - later developed into the Deutsche-marine WW2 standard. 

Clive
Bretagne

Re: Panel light replacements

greenboxmaven
 


Here in the USA they sell #47 LED replacements on Epay. They are far less expensive when you search for them for pinball games rather than radio use. I bought about 50 of them and have used them in all sorts of receivers with no RF noise at all. They are offered as AC/DC, and I have operated them on everything from DC to 400 cycles with no problems. Almost all white LEDs today use an ultraviolet LED to excite a phosphor to produce white light. They need about 3-4 volts to begin to conduct. Most will produce plenty light with 10 MA. of current through them, 20 seems fine if you need every available lumen. 40 MA. will shorten their life considerably and actually weaken their output rather quickly. If you have an LED that is on a heat sink, the curent rating and light output can be far greater.� The "warm white" or "soft white" color looks very much like an incandescent bulb.

��� Bruce Gentry, KA2IVY


From: wireless-set-no19@groups.io [mailto:wireless-set-no19@groups.io] On Behalf Of Alan Belton G8LIT via Groups.Io
Sent: 07 December 2019 09:48
To: wireless-set-no19@groups.io
Subject: Re: [wireless-set-no19] Panel light replacements

�

Allan,

�7.50 later, and some feedback: the LED bulbs seem completely benign, and the �warm white� colour matches a normally run filament very well. �They are polarity sensitive, positive to the centre pip, negative to the outer, and draw approx 20mA at 12v. �

�

They light up initially at around 4v, at about 4mA, with quite adequate light output, that remains virtually constant as the supply voltage increases. �They also run at 28v, at about 40mA, and run warmer, but not excessively so. �Not tried on 50Hz.

�

No interference noted anywhere, on domestic radios or amateur radio, (or a spectrum analyser) by coupling a battery powered LED into the antenna input of various receivers via a 10nF capacitor.

�

Nothing detected on a 100MHz scope, at any voltage, and overall, this would suggest that there is no switching regulator chip, more likely a DC series regulator type arrangement or current limiter.

73

�

Al

�

G8LIT


Re: 2nd Lt J R R Tolkien; Signals Officer.

Clive Redfern
 

Hi Sean,

I have an overhead camera arrangement, so no actual contact with the book.
Nevertheless, the act of flattening the book stresses the old and yellowed binding and the rather crisp old pages.
As I offered, if there's some specific entry that you need then I'll copy it.

I'll dig out the old British keys that I have (illustrated in the book) and image them together with other parts of the station equipment - receiving galvanometer, relays, etcetera. I have a complete station circuit except for batteries.

I also have a couple of Deutsch pieces from the WW1 and a US Navy spark key of that period too..

Joseph Junker didn't develop/patent his key until circa 1926 - later developed into the Deutsche-marine WW2 standard. 

Clive
Bretagne

Re: Canadian WS 19 Transmit Spectrum

Jacques_VE2JFE
 

Hello Frans,

 

Your answer raises two more questions:

1_ When you mention: only the capacitors of the LF amplifier ( V3A ) have been replaced.
Reason was my fear to blow up the LF transformer ( what proved later on to be caused by something totally different).

What is the cause of so many T2A primary failures then ?

 

2_ Does the F 257/3 Mod. Instr. # 2 and #7 were applied to the sets you measured ?

 

73, Jacques, VE2JFE

Re: 2nd Lt J R R Tolkien; Signals Officer.

AllanIsaacs
 

I have a few odds and ends of WW1 equipment but many copper and brass parts were scrapped by dealers over the years for metal content so complete equipments are scarce.

The spark transmitters could be (vaguely) tuned by adjusting taps on their flat spiral coil.

The 30 watt Mk1 HT unit for example had an adjustable buzzer for converting battery voltage to the AC needed for the HT transformer.

And being adjustable could be tuned to produce a different note. Because of the very wide bandwidth of transmissions, and the lack of precise tuning, the note of the transmission was often used to identify the sender.

 

Turning to voice comms. It was possible to use a pair of earth spikes some distance apart to pick up nearby landline speech and valve amplifiers were even used to enhance enemy signals to make them audible. The Imperial War Museum has a good display of these sort of things and the School of Signals Museum at Blandford has a nice display of WW1 stuff. A good place to visit after Bovington to see their 19 Sets mounted in tanks.

Allan G3PIY

Re: 2nd Lt J R R Tolkien; Signals Officer.

Sean_Kelly
 

As Swiss Armed Forces mainly used German equipment until shortly before WWII (when Germany closed the borders for export), I cannot tell you something about what Tolkien was using, but give an impression what could have been used on the German side of the trenches.
Sorry, most of the texts are in german language, I' slowly translating my website to english and the HamFU which has excellent reports about the WWI period equipment is german language only.
Hope this helps, enjoy the weekend Martin



At least when I'm using Chrome, Google offers to translate the pages and does well enough that I can understand them. It's a handy feature.

Sean

--
Sean Kelly,
USA

Re: 2nd Lt J R R Tolkien; Signals Officer.

Chris_Suslowicz
 


Sean Kelly wrote:

~~~~~
I've seen a manual with a US WWI Air-to-Ground liaison set using telephony. It was for artillery spotting and IIRC, RF out was 0.75 watts. But, I don't remember what manual it was.
 
the radio in this Wikipedia entry reminds me of it, and it adds that relatively few of these sets reached the war, the majority being sold as surplus to hams and becoming a favorite.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCR-54

That's just a crystal set (though there was an add-on valve detector (SCR-55) made for it. Receive only. The early aircraft sets were spark gap transmitters, possibly with valve receivers, and were operated by the observer.

Looking through Louis Meulstee's magnificent "Wireless for the Warrior" series, in this case "Compendium 1 - Spark to Larkspur", there's mention of the "Stirling Aircraft Transmitter 30-watt Spark" and the "No.1 Aircraft Transmitter Spark" from 1914, each with 30-watt input. These were followed by the "Type 52" range. The Type 52A was used for long range artillery spotting and enemy submarine patrols. Testing for ground use led to it becoming the basis of the W/T Trench Set 50 Watt in 1915.

The "Signals between aeroplanes and artillery" card (Doc 5234) from October 1915 makes no mention of telephony - it's all morse code (wireless or lamp), Very's lights from the aircraft, and morse code or ground signalling strips.

The aircraft receiver "Tuner, Aircraft, Valve Mk.1" was introduced in 1916.

Telephone Wireless Aircraft Mk.II appeared in 1917, which allowed one-way speech from the transmitting aircraft to aircraft fitted with the receiver. (Transmitter weighed 45 lb, receiver 25.25 lb.)
Range 2 miles aircraft to aircraft, 15 miles aircraft to ground.

Best regards,
Chris. (G8KGS)
Junior Password Gnome.

Re: 2nd Lt J R R Tolkien; Signals Officer.

MBoesch
 

As fas as I know (and I'm not an expert on WWI and communications), there has been wireless telegraphy, but not yet telephony. Because of too many wireless "trench stations" were transmittting and there were no selective receivers available, there are stories about too many interfering stations caused troubles near the frontline, so there must have been several stations, not only a few of some Army command.

What I have access to, is information about Switzerland (which was not involved in WWI, most of our deads were from the "Spanish Flue"):
In Switzerland, the armed forces started tests with wireless telegraphy in 1905 and the station was improved to use "Löschfunken" (spark-gap transmitter) in 1914, so this was available in WWI. (Switzerland used Telefunken equipmenmt imported from Germany).
see http://armyradio.wiki/doku.php?id=de:loeschfunken_-_schulstation_14
and https://www.hamfu.ch/de/geraete/geraet.php?id=230
the onyl existing one or two stations have survived and have been restored bei HamFU.
Reception was a problem, as Morse printers or headphones were used.

Then 1914/16 a more powerful station was introduced, also from Telefunken
http://armyradio.wiki/doku.php?id=de:fahrbare_funkenstation_14_16

In 1917 Valve transmitters were developed, they were introduced in Switzerland in 1918, but in Germany before
http://armyradio.wiki/doku.php?id=de:ts_18_1918
The regenerative receiver was a problem: because of the signals were to faint in the headphones with a lot of War noise around, and because of the selectivity was poor and the wideband transmissions of the gap / arc-gap transmitters were overlapping and causing interference, Switzerland replaced the receiver in 1922 by a more modern Telefunken set.

Telephony in Switzerland was not introduced before 1925, for the FL19 station with an improved transmitter,
http://armyradio.wiki/doku.php?id=de:fl25_1925
there was a separate modulator to modulate it from a microphone.

The informations about aircraft communications are even more rare:
In Switzerland they started in 1929 with this German Telefunken set
http://armyradio.wiki/doku.php?id=de:se-001
Before, there have been trials using spark gap transmitters onboard aircraft to transmit reconnaissance results to the ground, but the Aircraft was too unstable to use crystal detectors and too much much noise from the engine anyway. For signalling from ground to aircraft, in Switzerland "Fliegertücher" were used, different coloured cloth which was laid on the ground to indicate "get back to base", "explore to the north" and so on.

As Swiss Armed Forces mainly used German equipment until shortly before WWII (when Germany closed the borders for export), I cannot tell you something about what Tolkien was using, but give an impression what could have been used on the German side of the trenches.
Sorry, most of the texts are in german language, I' slowly translating my website to english and the HamFU which has excellent reports about the WWI period equipment is german language only.
Hope this helps, enjoy the weekend Martin