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Japanese half waffle query
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Debbie Kaplan
I have been exploring a certain family of drafts from the book Orimono soshiki hen found on handweaving.net. They are half waffle, in that they are triangular, rather than diamond patterns. And most importantly, they have no tie downs as in western waffle. They range from 6 shaft, which seems a quite reasonable weave, to 24 shaft with maximum floats of 19. The keywords on handweaving.net are 41744 (6 shaft), 41745 (8 shaft), 41746 (10 shaft), and 41747 (24 shaft).
I am most interested in the 10 and 24 shaft patterns. Anyone have any experience of these patterns? I am interested both in how they might have been used traditionally and any modern day uses of them. Thanks, Debbie Kaplan |
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Marion Stubenitsky
Debbie, I can see that you are
intrigued, but I think those design are not okay to weave. There
is no connection, I think the 3 or 4 or 6 wefts will end up all on
top of each other, so will the warps. As you say, there are no
tie-downs.
I wonder if there are weavers used them
successful as a profile or so.
Marian
I have been exploring a certain family of drafts from the book Orimono soshiki hen found on handweaving.net. They are half waffle, in that they are triangular, rather than diamond patterns. And most importantly, they have no tie downs as in western waffle. They range from 6 shaft, which seems a quite reasonable weave, to 24 shaft with maximum floats of 19. The keywords on handweaving.net are 41744 (6 shaft), 41745 (8 shaft), 41746 (10 shaft), and 41747 (24 shaft).
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Debbie Kaplan
Marion, thanks for the response and I see why you would think so.
I have woven samples in wool on the 24 shaft and 10 shaft versions. They do indeed slide under each other, making for a very airy, thick, slightly tied fabric. The most successful version so far has been using the 10 shaft version at a twill sett, with plainweave selvages, fulled 10-15%. I am currently trying stiffer Japanese threads. Perhaps they were meant to be very open weaves that allowed for waviness in both warp and weft? I’ve heard that Japanese weavers did lots of inventive things with specialized purposes. Debbie Kaplan |
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Debbie It's always fun delving into a new area in weaving techniques. It's interesting to me that someone has tagged all those drafts as doubleweave. Do the threads slide to make 2 layers in sections? Can you think of any ways your samples could be used? Can you post photos of your samples? I'd love to see what they look like. Janene On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 8:51 AM Marion Stubenitsky <stubenitsky@...> wrote:
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Marion Stubenitsky
Debbie, I was not aware of you already woven samples.
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Do you have some pictures to share? Marian Sent using the mobile mail app On 19/10/2022 at 19:03, Debbie Kaplan wrote:
Marion, thanks for the response and I see why you would think so. |
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Janene
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It’s good to keep in mind that the tags at HW net can be added by anyone, at anytime, regardless of their expertise. Someone has gone through and tagged every draft with colors as “color-and-weave”. And they’re by no means all c&w.
coeweaves.com
e-weave-online.thinkific.com
On Oct 19, 2022, at 10:09 AM, Janene Driscoll via groups.io <janene.wildiris@...> wrote:
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Sara von Tresckow
I once found that book online(in Japanese) and found it to be similar in
scope to something like the Oelsner - and used the flower motif from draft 41667 in my drawloom work in several variations, not as structure, but as the drawn pattern area. Which draft numbers are you looking at? Sara von Tresckow, Fond du Lac, WI sarav@... Author of “When a Single Harness Simply Isn’t Enough” http://www.woolgatherers.com Dutch Master Loom/Spinning Chairs/Öxabäck Looms, visit us in Fond du Lac or contact us about your weaving/spinning needs |
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Debbie Kaplan
So, these are definitely not double weave. They are tied. It works well as a scarf. Note that in a block of 5 threads, only one will show on the surface of each side of the cloth, at least in the 10 and 24 shaft versions. I am wondering about semi-see-through room dividers in a stiff thread. I've included a shot of the scarf fabric and a side shot to show depth. There is also a funky shot at the end with a very open linen version with no plain weave selvages. Obviously, that one needs work! Sara, the draft numbers are 41744 (6 shaft), 41745 (8 shaft), 41746 (10 shaft), and 41747 (24 shaft)
   
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I would call it “integrated double weave”. We explored this in some depth when 4 color double weave arose. There are more than one warps and more than one wefts. It was decided (not by me) that if the head of a pin could be inserted between two layers, that
it was double weave.
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Debbie Kaplan
Hmm. Marg, that description of double weave only fits a limited range of fabrics. In this case, the head of a pin would fit between each and every thread. If anything the outside of the cloth is more open than the interior.
In reference to the 10 shaft version, which only gets more extreme in the 24 shaft: In this structure, warps and wefts work in pretty much the same way. The center threads of a block of five alternate quite regularly, caught every 4 threads at most. The first and last set of the set of five are caught every other block of five. So the center of the cloth is more interlocked than the outside. |
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Sara von Tresckow
Interesting drafts.
Did you notice this note at the bottom or 44-46? NOTE: This draft is for multiple separate layers of cloth that will come apart after weaving! (from Kris Bruland) Sara von Tresckow, Fond du Lac, WI sarav@... Author of “When a Single Harness Simply Isn’t Enough” http://www.woolgatherers.com Dutch Master Loom/Spinning Chairs/Öxabäck Looms, visit us in Fond du Lac or contact us about your weaving/spinning needs |
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Debbie Kaplan
Yes, Sara! That is the key to the treasure! The 10 shaft version weaves 5 layers of independent fabric, rotating 5 wefts!
The question then becomes, under what conditions was it worth it to weave 5 separate layers at a time? |
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You can purchase the original book in Japanese from Handweaving.net as a PDF and see more information- but it's hard to sort because it's a)Japanese b)Japanese about weaving and c)older Japanese- none of these things are stuff that Google translate works well with. Keep in mind the book is formatted backwards, page one starts on 484. There are some fascinating diagrams of the different loom mechanics. https://store.handweaving.net/products/orimono-soshiki-hen-textile-system-by-yoshida-kiju The chapter these drafts are in focuses on layered cloth. The translation is iffy, but it mentions using these drafts if you need a thick or strong fabric to make belts or to make thicker cotton or hemp fabrics. In the case of 41747- it's a 6 layer fabric but the layers are interwoven, the text says this makes a dense, strong fabric. My best guess is that these weaves could be used for belt webbing, to thicken lighter materials to make them more substantial, or woven in wools for cloth that long wearing and very warm. |
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Linda Schultz
This reminds me of the Interlocking Melanie Olde wrote about in the October 2021 issue of the Complex Weavers Journal.
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Michelle
I wonder if we have anyone from Japan in this group that could give some assistance and shed some light on this? I have a friend in China when I run into China translation questions and some questions about weaving, but not one in Japan. On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 3:52 PM Debbie Kaplan <deborahkaplan@...> wrote: Yes, Sara! That is the key to the treasure! The 10 shaft version weaves 5 layers of independent fabric, rotating 5 wefts! |
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Gerri Barosso
This is more of an aside. The Minneapolis Institute of Arts recently ended an exhibit "Dressed by Nature: Textiles of Japan." There were many pieces that had more open weaves. It was fascinating. The introductory video is still up. The narrative doesn't offer much for specifics, but some may enjoy the visuals. They reference a book "Textiles of Japan" by Thomas Murray and Virginia Soenksen
These posts have been interesting! Thank you!
Gerri Barosso
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P George
Thanks for this video link Gerri! The narrative is as beautiful as the images. Wish I could have seen the actual exhibit. Patrice George
From: <weavetech@groups.io> on behalf of "Gerri Barosso via groups.io" <greenboatgb@...>
This is more of an aside. The Minneapolis Institute of Arts recently ended an exhibit "Dressed by Nature: Textiles of Japan." There were many pieces that had more open weaves. It was fascinating. The introductory video is still up. The narrative doesn't offer much for specifics, but some may enjoy the visuals. They reference a book "Textiles of Japan" by Thomas Murray and Virginia Soenksen
These posts have been interesting! Thank you!
Gerri Barosso |
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Marion Stubenitsky
Thank you, Debbie, how nice and
intriguing!
I was totally wrong, I think.
Marian
So, these are definitely not double weave. They are tied. It works well as a scarf. Note that in a block of 5 threads, only one will show on the surface of each side of the cloth, at least in the 10 and 24 shaft versions. I am wondering about semi-see-through room dividers in a stiff thread. I've included a shot of the scarf fabric and a side shot to show depth. There is also a funky shot at the end with a very open linen version with no plain weave selvages. Obviously, that one needs work! Sara, the draft numbers are 41744 (6 shaft), 41745 (8 shaft), 41746 (10 shaft), and 41747 (24 shaft)
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Debbie Kaplan
On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 06:27 PM, Gerri Barosso wrote:
Textiles of Japan" by Thomas Murray and Virginia SoenksenThank you to everyone who has helped with this mystery and for the references for further exploration. To add one more layer of complication, the most complex version on handweaving.net, 41747, which is 20 shaft & 24 treadle. I mistyped earlier and called this a 24 shaft pattern. This version appears to connect layers in a way I have yet to decipher. It was entered by Bonnie Inoye. Perhaps someone here knows how to contact her? Debbie Kaplan |
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Sue Anne Sullivan
Bonnie is active on Ravelry in the Warped Weavers Group. You could message her there at BonnieInouye.
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