Dyeing help


Linda Schultz
 

I need help/suggestions. I'm over-dyeing a shawl with navy Procion MX Fiber reactive dye, and I'm still getting colour coming out in the rinse. It's been two days now, and I've done about 15 hot water/synthropol soaks by now, and used countless rinses. The water is nearly clear (you don't see any colour in it when squeezing out the excess, just a tint in the water in the rinse bucket). But when I take the shawl to my steam press, my fingers start to turn blue from handling the shawl. And if I leave it sitting in cold water for 5 minutes or longer, there's a fair bit of colour in the water.

Does anyone have any suggestions for getting all the unreacted dye out?

I'm experienced with dyeing with fiber reactive dyes, and I've done dark colours before (although I usually work with medium or pale solutions). I know I have to rinse a lot more with dark colours, but this is way beyond anything I've experienced before. The warp was a 50/50 rayon/silk that was dye-painted with medium colours (yellow/blue/turquoise), and the weft was a darker commercially dyed variegated rayon (dragon tale yarn from Earth Guild) in purples and reds. I followed the directions exactly for immersion dyeing when I did the overdyeing. And the dye seems to have struck well - the shawl is very dark with a hint of the original colours showing through, which is the look I was going for. I just don't know why I'm still getting dye coming out - surely any dye that didn't react with the fibre should be gone by now?

I suspect part of the problem is the silk - there is a note on the Prochem site that fiber reactive dyes in dark colours don't work as well on silk. So the colour may be releasing from the silk. But again...surely any dye that didn't react with the silk should have rinsed out by now.

I've done a heat press, in hopes that heat would help set the dye. I've soaked it in a vinegar solution, and a salt solution. I've put colour magnets in the rinse water. I've spun it dry (front loader) to get more water out than I can with squeezing. But I'm still getting lots of blue in the rinse water when I let it sit in cold water for more than 5 minutes. My plan is to just keep doing the hot synthrapol soaks and then lots of rinsing.

Does anybody have any other suggestions?

Thank you,
Linda Schultz 


suki248
 

My experience is with MX dyes and cotton. The Pro Chem instructions call for 140 F water to prevent running. How hot is hot? I would try going up to maybe 160 to make sure.  Tap water is not nearly hot enough.

On 12/24/2021 1:15 PM, Linda Schultz via groups.io wrote:

I need help/suggestions. I'm over-dyeing a shawl with navy Procion MX Fiber reactive dye, and I'm still getting colour coming out in the rinse. It's been two days now, and I've done about 15 hot water/synthropol soaks by now, and used countless rinses. The water is nearly clear (you don't see any colour in it when squeezing out the excess, just a tint in the water in the rinse bucket). But when I take the shawl to my steam press, my fingers start to turn blue from handling the shawl. And if I leave it sitting in cold water for 5 minutes or longer, there's a fair bit of colour in the water.

Does anyone have any suggestions for getting all the unreacted dye out?

I'm experienced with dyeing with fiber reactive dyes, and I've done dark colours before (although I usually work with medium or pale solutions). I know I have to rinse a lot more with dark colours, but this is way beyond anything I've experienced before. The warp was a 50/50 rayon/silk that was dye-painted with medium colours (yellow/blue/turquoise), and the weft was a darker commercially dyed variegated rayon (dragon tale yarn from Earth Guild) in purples and reds. I followed the directions exactly for immersion dyeing when I did the overdyeing. And the dye seems to have struck well - the shawl is very dark with a hint of the original colours showing through, which is the look I was going for. I just don't know why I'm still getting dye coming out - surely any dye that didn't react with the fibre should be gone by now?

I suspect part of the problem is the silk - there is a note on the Prochem site that fiber reactive dyes in dark colours don't work as well on silk. So the colour may be releasing from the silk. But again...surely any dye that didn't react with the silk should have rinsed out by now.

I've done a heat press, in hopes that heat would help set the dye. I've soaked it in a vinegar solution, and a salt solution. I've put colour magnets in the rinse water. I've spun it dry (front loader) to get more water out than I can with squeezing. But I'm still getting lots of blue in the rinse water when I let it sit in cold water for more than 5 minutes. My plan is to just keep doing the hot synthrapol soaks and then lots of rinsing.

Does anybody have any other suggestions?

Thank you,
Linda Schultz 



Ian Bowers
 

If your dye came from Dyechem, that’s the first port of call for help. 
For what it’s worth, my guess is that you left too long a period between making the dye liquor and entering the fabric. The dye hydrolyses rapidly and the hydrolysed dye compounds do not attach to the fibres. 

Ian Bowers (Dr)
Managing Director 
George Weil &Sons Ltd 

On 24 Dec 2021, at 18:45, suki248 via groups.io <caloosa@...> wrote:



My experience is with MX dyes and cotton. The Pro Chem instructions call for 140 F water to prevent running. How hot is hot? I would try going up to maybe 160 to make sure.  Tap water is not nearly hot enough.

On 12/24/2021 1:15 PM, Linda Schultz via groups.io wrote:
I need help/suggestions. I'm over-dyeing a shawl with navy Procion MX Fiber reactive dye, and I'm still getting colour coming out in the rinse. It's been two days now, and I've done about 15 hot water/synthropol soaks by now, and used countless rinses. The water is nearly clear (you don't see any colour in it when squeezing out the excess, just a tint in the water in the rinse bucket). But when I take the shawl to my steam press, my fingers start to turn blue from handling the shawl. And if I leave it sitting in cold water for 5 minutes or longer, there's a fair bit of colour in the water.

Does anyone have any suggestions for getting all the unreacted dye out?

I'm experienced with dyeing with fiber reactive dyes, and I've done dark colours before (although I usually work with medium or pale solutions). I know I have to rinse a lot more with dark colours, but this is way beyond anything I've experienced before. The warp was a 50/50 rayon/silk that was dye-painted with medium colours (yellow/blue/turquoise), and the weft was a darker commercially dyed variegated rayon (dragon tale yarn from Earth Guild) in purples and reds. I followed the directions exactly for immersion dyeing when I did the overdyeing. And the dye seems to have struck well - the shawl is very dark with a hint of the original colours showing through, which is the look I was going for. I just don't know why I'm still getting dye coming out - surely any dye that didn't react with the fibre should be gone by now?

I suspect part of the problem is the silk - there is a note on the Prochem site that fiber reactive dyes in dark colours don't work as well on silk. So the colour may be releasing from the silk. But again...surely any dye that didn't react with the silk should have rinsed out by now.

I've done a heat press, in hopes that heat would help set the dye. I've soaked it in a vinegar solution, and a salt solution. I've put colour magnets in the rinse water. I've spun it dry (front loader) to get more water out than I can with squeezing. But I'm still getting lots of blue in the rinse water when I let it sit in cold water for more than 5 minutes. My plan is to just keep doing the hot synthrapol soaks and then lots of rinsing.

Does anybody have any other suggestions?

Thank you,
Linda Schultz 



Elizabeth Moncrief
 

Linda, I know you’ll get several responses to this as there are so many dyers out there, but here are my 2 cents:

I’m afraid you’ll just have to continue with your rinses until its over with.  Also, maybe too much dye powder to begin with…but that doesnt help at this point.  Dark hues require almost double the dye powder to get saturation, and its a hard thing to find that amount and not have bleeding or wash out for a long time. 

FR dyes are not a good choice for silk and the soda ash is terribly hard on silk fibers.  If, like some folks, you’ve used baking soda and heated it to ‘mimic’ soda ash, a combination of heat and alkaline environment together is worse yet.  

  Dharma has a a good ‘dye-set’ from Jaquard that Ive used in the past on my silks and its sets well with no adverse issues.  Ive even spoken with a very helpful David who answers the Jaquard ‘question line’ and this is what he recommended to me many years ago.  You might look into that. 
Cheers and happy holidays to all.

Liz Moncrief
Www.aweaversway.com 



 


On Dec 24, 2021, at 10:45 AM, suki248 <caloosa@...> wrote:



My experience is with MX dyes and cotton. The Pro Chem instructions call for 140 F water to prevent running. How hot is hot? I would try going up to maybe 160 to make sure.  Tap water is not nearly hot enough.

On 12/24/2021 1:15 PM, Linda Schultz via groups.io wrote:
I need help/suggestions. I'm over-dyeing a shawl with navy Procion MX Fiber reactive dye, and I'm still getting colour coming out in the rinse. It's been two days now, and I've done about 15 hot water/synthropol soaks by now, and used countless rinses. The water is nearly clear (you don't see any colour in it when squeezing out the excess, just a tint in the water in the rinse bucket). But when I take the shawl to my steam press, my fingers start to turn blue from handling the shawl. And if I leave it sitting in cold water for 5 minutes or longer, there's a fair bit of colour in the water.

Does anyone have any suggestions for getting all the unreacted dye out?

I'm experienced with dyeing with fiber reactive dyes, and I've done dark colours before (although I usually work with medium or pale solutions). I know I have to rinse a lot more with dark colours, but this is way beyond anything I've experienced before. The warp was a 50/50 rayon/silk that was dye-painted with medium colours (yellow/blue/turquoise), and the weft was a darker commercially dyed variegated rayon (dragon tale yarn from Earth Guild) in purples and reds. I followed the directions exactly for immersion dyeing when I did the overdyeing. And the dye seems to have struck well - the shawl is very dark with a hint of the original colours showing through, which is the look I was going for. I just don't know why I'm still getting dye coming out - surely any dye that didn't react with the fibre should be gone by now?

I suspect part of the problem is the silk - there is a note on the Prochem site that fiber reactive dyes in dark colours don't work as well on silk. So the colour may be releasing from the silk. But again...surely any dye that didn't react with the silk should have rinsed out by now.

I've done a heat press, in hopes that heat would help set the dye. I've soaked it in a vinegar solution, and a salt solution. I've put colour magnets in the rinse water. I've spun it dry (front loader) to get more water out than I can with squeezing. But I'm still getting lots of blue in the rinse water when I let it sit in cold water for more than 5 minutes. My plan is to just keep doing the hot synthrapol soaks and then lots of rinsing.

Does anybody have any other suggestions?

Thank you,
Linda Schultz 



Tien Chiu
 

On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 10:15 AM Linda Schultz via groups.io <lindaschultz=me.com@groups.io> wrote:
I need help/suggestions. I'm over-dyeing a shawl with navy Procion MX Fiber reactive dye, and I'm still getting colour coming out in the rinse. It's been two days now, and I've done about 15 hot water/synthropol soaks by now, and used countless rinses. The water is nearly clear (you don't see any colour in it when squeezing out the excess, just a tint in the water in the rinse bucket). But when I take the shawl to my steam press, my fingers start to turn blue from handling the shawl. And if I leave it sitting in cold water for 5 minutes or longer, there's a fair bit of colour in the water.

Does anyone have any suggestions for getting all the unreacted dye out?

I'm experienced with dyeing with fiber reactive dyes, and I've done dark colours before (although I usually work with medium or pale solutions). I know I have to rinse a lot more with dark colours, but this is way beyond anything I've experienced before. The warp was a 50/50 rayon/silk that was dye-painted with medium colours (yellow/blue/turquoise), and the weft was a darker commercially dyed variegated rayon (dragon tale yarn from Earth Guild) in purples and reds. I followed the directions exactly for immersion dyeing when I did the overdyeing. And the dye seems to have struck well - the shawl is very dark with a hint of the original colours showing through, which is the look I was going for. I just don't know why I'm still getting dye coming out - surely any dye that didn't react with the fibre should be gone by now?

I suspect part of the problem is the silk - there is a note on the Prochem site that fiber reactive dyes in dark colours don't work as well on silk. So the colour may be releasing from the silk. But again...surely any dye that didn't react with the silk should have rinsed out by now.

This is extremely unusual behavior in my experience and I wonder whether the problem is the variegated rayon rather than the MX dyes. I routinely use MX dyes on silk without bleeding problems (and without damaging the silk perceptibly; in my opinion the common belief about the alkali in the soda ash method damaging the silk is incorrect. As long as you don't leave the silk in the dyebath for days and don't try to heat-set it with steam or the microwave, and do a vinegar after-rinse to restore the pH, it's just fine).

I would try soaking the shawl in VERY hot water (near simmering) to "kill" any remaining Procion MX dye (that will make any remaining dye bond to the water if it hasn't already), then do another lengthy Synthrapol soak in hot water, then rinse in cold water and see if that works.

In general my protocol for rinsing out fiber-reactive dyes, whether on silk or cotton, goes something like this:

- Rinse in a large amount of cold water to remove the soda ash (I use ice water if I am worried about backstaining (bleeding from one area into another))
- Once the soda ash is out, dump everything into a bucket of cold water and let sit overnight; this allows unreacted dye to finish hydrolyzing and makes the rest of the washing process significantly easier.
- Long soak (several hours) in VERY hot water with Synthrapol (I have my hot water heater set to 140 or so at this time - be careful!)
- Spin out. I usually do a second long soak in very hot water with Synthrapol but usually very little dye is coming out in the second wash.
- Another long soak in hot water, no Synthrapol, because I'm paranoid and don't like bleeding. Usually almost nothing comes out.
- Quick rinse in cold water to get out any remaining Synthrapol.

I could almost certainly get by with fewer rinses but I am most frequently doing dye samples for which color accuracy is critical. Or else tie-dyed clothing, and I don't like pink underwear. ;-) 

Tien


Denise
 

Linda,

I know this isn't helpful for your current project, but it may be helpful going forward: I learned (the hard way) that in order to properly cure MX dyes, you have to leave them overnight in a VERY warm setting -- that is, 72 degrees F or higher. As soon as I learned to do this, my rinsing time was reduced substantially.

Also, I've used MX dyes with silk successfully, but because of the soda-ash problem mentioned in this thread, I've used a recipe from ProChem that calls for soaking in a citric acid or vinegar solution. This, to me, effectively turns them into acid dyes, but I've still cured them them same way, leaving them in a warm environment for 24 hours.

Best wishes to you,
Denise Kovnat


sklarek2
 


Go to the source:
Try calling Pro Chemical and Dye in Fall River, MA
800-238-9393  or 508-675-3838 and ask to speak to someone in their lab. 
Good luck and Happy Holidays!

On Sat, Dec 25, 2021 at 9:36 AM Denise <dkovn@...> wrote:
Linda,

I know this isn't helpful for your current project, but it may be helpful going forward: I learned (the hard way) that in order to properly cure MX dyes, you have to leave them overnight in a VERY warm setting -- that is, 72 degrees F or higher. As soon as I learned to do this, my rinsing time was reduced substantially.

Also, I've used MX dyes with silk successfully, but because of the soda-ash problem mentioned in this thread, I've used a recipe from ProChem that calls for soaking in a citric acid or vinegar solution. This, to me, effectively turns them into acid dyes, but I've still cured them them same way, leaving them in a warm environment for 24 hours.

Best wishes to you,
Denise Kovnat

--


Sara Nordling
 

I agree with Tien's suggestions.

Sara
Fort Wayne, IN


Linda Schultz
 

Thank you! Thank you everyone for your help!

I noticed a common theme..."hot water temperature". When I dug out my thermometer to check, my water temperature was well below 140, so I added more boiling water than I had been, and did another long synthrapol soak. And it worked.

Lesson learned - when using a different container than you usually use, "eyeballing" the usual tap water to boiling water ratio may not be quite as scientifically precise as you hope. :( I suspected it was going to be one of those "doh!" reasons, which is partly why I didn't want to call ProChem first. ;)

Thank you Suki, Tien, and Sara for the specific temperature recommendation, and thank you Tien for the detailed description of your routine. I appreciate hearing about different experiences with soda ash, and temperatures, with silk. As Liz says, there is a lot of advice out there, so it helps to hear what others experience.

Liz, you mention "dye-set" from Jacquard. Would that help when I am also dyeing rayon?

Denise, are you talking about immersion dyeing or direct application like warp painting? I was worried about leaving the silk in the immersion bath with the soda ash for longer than the 60 minutes. The advice about room temperature is helpful, especially when I'm used to it being hot in Florida, but now it's winter.

Linda


Denise
 

Linda,

I'm talking about direct application. You're still using room temperature Urea water for mixing the dyes -- but, as I mentioned, the key is to cure the dyed yarn in a warm setting. Some people use gardeners seedling mats! Attached are the instructions from ProChem.

I've also used this method for one-shade low-water immersion dyeing. The results don't give you uniformity in the color, as you can imagine, but I like the slight variations.

Best,
Denise


Linda Schultz
 

Thanks Denise. That seedling mat idea looks interesting.

I was wondering about my warming drawer. The bread proofing setting is about 100 F. Has anyone used this for direct application/low water? 

Linda 


Tien Chiu
 

In my experience it hasn’t been necessary. MX dyes when painted or low-water immersion dyed have set for me just fine at room temperature (65F and higher). They will set FASTER at higher temperatures, but I typically leave things for a day or so and that seems to work out fine. For deep colors at cooler temperatures you might want to apply some heat but I’ve never found it necessary. Your mileage may vary, of course; people use different protocols, amounts of soda ash, etc. so use what works for your methodology.

The essence of the chemistry is that heat increases the reaction rate of the dye. My dim memory (do not take this in any way as gospel) is that every 10-20 degrees F doubles the reaction rate, so if you increase the temperature by 10-20 degrees you halve the time required for the reaction. At some point the reaction fails to happen at all, but that is significantly below room temperature (or ice dyeing and snow dyeing would not work with MX dyes, and it does).

If you *really* want to accelerate the set time of MX dyes, you can put the item to be dyed in the microwave or steam it in a steamer and accelerate the dyeing that way. I think Jane Dunnewold steams her finished MX-painted surface designed items and says she gets deeper colors that way. Depending on your feelings about dye safety you may or may not dedicate a microwave to this use. When I am doing it I don’t dedicate a microwave, but put the dyed item in a sealed plastic bag and am VERY careful about not microwaving to temps that would pop the bag open. MX dyes are pretty darn nontoxic, but you can develop allergic reactions and I would really rather not. In the microwave you can heat-set the dye in just a few minutes. Do NOT do this with silk; this *will* damage the silk very quickly, unlike room temperature direct application or immersion dyeing.

Do NOT increase temperatures from the recommended temperatures in ProChem or Dharma’s guidelines when doing immersion dyeing. The dye reacts with the dye bath as well as with the fiber and if you increase the temperatures it will react faster with the dye bath and won’t have time to penetrate the fiber before it reacts to the dye bath.

BTW, if anyone is interested in the chemistry of dyeing, the Society of Dyers and Colourists in the UK has some excellent and relatively accessible books on the chemistry of dyeing, available on their website.

My $0.02, for what it’s worth.

Tien


On Dec 26, 2021, at 10:31 AM, Linda Schultz via groups.io <lindaschultz@...> wrote:

Thanks Denise. That seedling mat idea looks interesting.

I was wondering about my warming drawer. The bread proofing setting is about 100 F. Has anyone used this for direct application/low water? 

Linda 


Elizabeth Moncrief
 

Linda,  if you’d like to email me directly  it might be more efficient or we could do a phone call if that would help. 

Sent from liz's iPhone
Www.aweaversway.com
Instagram:    Moncriefliz






On Dec 26, 2021, at 5:58 AM, Linda Schultz via groups.io <lindaschultz@...> wrote:

Thank you! Thank you everyone for your help!

I noticed a common theme..."hot water temperature". When I dug out my thermometer to check, my water temperature was well below 140, so I added more boiling water than I had been, and did another long synthrapol soak. And it worked.

Lesson learned - when using a different container than you usually use, "eyeballing" the usual tap water to boiling water ratio may not be quite as scientifically precise as you hope. :( I suspected it was going to be one of those "doh!" reasons, which is partly why I didn't want to call ProChem first. ;)

Thank you Suki, Tien, and Sara for the specific temperature recommendation, and thank you Tien for the detailed description of your routine. I appreciate hearing about different experiences with soda ash, and temperatures, with silk. As Liz says, there is a lot of advice out there, so it helps to hear what others experience.

Liz, you mention "dye-set" from Jacquard. Would that help when I am also dyeing rayon?

Denise, are you talking about immersion dyeing or direct application like warp painting? I was worried about leaving the silk in the immersion bath with the soda ash for longer than the 60 minutes. The advice about room temperature is helpful, especially when I'm used to it being hot in Florida, but now it's winter.

Linda


Jane Eisenstein
 

I'm currently creating dye samples using direct application and mini-full immersion techniques taught by Carol Soderlund. I repurposed my Brod and Taylor bread proofer for batching the samples. 

Yesterday, I ran a 9 mason jar set of mini-full immersion samples in the proofer overnight. I turned the bread proofer temp down to 95F from 100F when I discovered there were hot and cool spots inside the proofer. According to an infrared thermometer this morning, the jar temps ranged from 89F to 99F with the proofer set to 95F. 

The direct application samples are laid out on 11"x14" plexiglass and batched in plastic bags.  I tried stacking sample sets using cooling racks as spacers, but found the bottom layer overheated while the top layer was barely warm.

I like the idea of using a seedling heat mat to keep direct application samples warm in my basement dye lab. Will check that out.

Jane


Linda Schultz
 

Thank you Tien. Useful information!

Linda


Linda Schultz
 

Thank you for sharing all that information Jane. Did you use the kind of infrared thermometer used for checking forehead temperature?

Linda


Jane Eisenstein
 

I have an Etekcity Lasergrip 1080 thermometer, which is the same model Carol used in class. It's not intended for use on humans. It's accuracy is ≥100°C±2% ≤100°C±2°C, so good enough for my purposes.


Pam
 

I’ve done direct application with MX in my basement on a plastic table with an electric radiator set to low under the table. The underside of the table warms very evenly.
I first did this because my legs were cold when I was painting and forgot to turn it off overnight. When I rinsed in the morning, the dyes were more set than just batching with plastic for 24 hrs in a heated basement.
Pam


sue broad
 

I have been following with interest the subject of setting batch-dyed yarns. I paint many of my warps which are  mostly wools or wool/silk blends. Although we in New Zealand  don't often have the face-freezing low temperatures of many in the northern hemisphere, setting dyes on warp-painted yarns can be difficult. In winter I have used an electric blanket (kept only for dyeing) on a low setting, with a surge protector at the wall-plug, the plastic-wrapped warp surrounded by towels in case of leaks, this has worked really well! 
Sue Broad
 in sunny Nelson, South Island New Zealand





margcoe
 

Sue
With wool and wool/silk I’d prefer acid dyes and they set at a much higher heat (close to boiling). Is there a reason you don’t use them?

Marg
ミ๏ܫ๏彡
coeweaves.com
e-weave-online.thinkific.com


On Dec 29, 2021, at 11:57 AM, sue broad <tomsuebroad@...> wrote:

I have been following with interest the subject of setting batch-dyed yarns. I paint many of my warps which are  mostly wools or wool/silk blends. Although we in New Zealand  don't often have the face-freezing low temperatures of many in the northern hemisphere, setting dyes on warp-painted yarns can be difficult. In winter I have used an electric blanket (kept only for dyeing) on a low setting, with a surge protector at the wall-plug, the plastic-wrapped warp surrounded by towels in case of leaks, this has worked really well! 
Sue Broad
 in sunny Nelson, South Island New Zealand