Seeking reversing section input


Nick Ostrosky
 

Hi, I'm re-starting my RR from scratch (getting more space is wonderful).  I've found reversing sections aren't my strong suit, so I'm seeking feedback on the plan to see if I have it right - or too much, or too little, or missing something else altogether.  Please refer to the RED section of this link https://groups.io/g/w4dccqa/files/ReverseLoops/New%20RR%20Design.pdf

Ignore the tracks that appear to overlap, there are height differences that may not be apparent unless you have outstanding eyesight (or a magnifying glass).  Thank you in advance for any insight you can provide!

Nick


Tim
 

If you eliminate these connections to the main track



Then your situation will be greatly simplified. Your layout is then a simple oval with the branch line on the tail of a wye to Dubols. Make the branch from Dubols to the turnout on the lower left the reversing section. It's a long reversing section, but there's only one entrance to it (which is good). I would control it with a DPDT relay controlled by the switch machine on that turnout, but you could use an auto-reverser. I would recommend a PSX-AR.

Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC


Tim
 

Pasting a picture doesn't work, so look here https://groups.io/g/w4dccqa/photo/268225/3304600?p=Created%2C%2C%2C20%2C2%2C0%2C0 to see the connections to eliminate.

Tim


Swanny
 

Nick, after sending my previous message, I looked at your diagram again, and realized that you'll probably be best served by making your red section the auto-reversing section.
Sorry for any confusion.
Enjoy.
John


Swanny
 

Nick, I agree with Tim.  I'd make the upper purple section from the red turnout as far back as your longest anticipated train your reversing section, or longer.  If you are using DCC, I'd recommend a version of the PSX-AR, as well as PSX devices for the rest of your railroad.  You'll find plenty of help on this and other group.io sites directing you to some form of "best practice" or another. 
Enjoy.
John 


Jim Betz
 

Nick,
  I don't see a "reversing section".  A reversing situation is a path where a train,
moving in the forward direction only - can change directions across the same
track.  I see how trains on your layout can go either way on "the purple track" - 
but not without a backing maneuver.  What am I missing?
  The track in red can be handled by an auto-reverser ... but I'm not certain it
is necessary.  
                                                                                                         - Jim


whmvd
 

Jim,

"A reversing situation is a path where a train, moving in the forward direction only - can change directions across the same track."

That's one of two. The other is a reversal triangle or wye.

There's also the trusty turntable, where a loco can pull of the reversing trick without moving at all.

Wouter


On Sun, 19 Sept 2021 at 09:30, Jim Betz <jimbetz@...> wrote:
Nick,
  I don't see a "reversing section".  A reversing situation is a path where a train,
moving in the forward direction only - can change directions across the same
track.  I see how trains on your layout can go either way on "the purple track" - 
but not without a backing maneuver.  What am I missing?
  The track in red can be handled by an auto-reverser ... but I'm not certain it
is necessary.  
                                                                                                         - Jim


Nick Ostrosky
 

Thank you all for your feedback so far.  Jim, the entire "purple" section in the original file allowed a train to exit the yard going right-to-left and re-enter the same yard left-to-right.  To get this right in my mind, I simply treated one rail as "black" and the other as "red" and then followed it around to see if the black wire was on the same side of the track at both departure and arrival points.

All, I've uploaded a replacement file with what I think are the reversing sections in RED.  The balloon track in Galeton, no question is a reversing loop as that was a pre-existing feature that I'm bringing along to the new layout.  From the feedback and more thinking, I feel my best bet is to treat most of what WAS the purple line as a separate reversing section.  The reason I didn't treat the whole line as reversing is that between a train running that line and a yard switcher that may have to use part of that line while working the yard there could have been two locos entering the same section from different directions.  That may seem extreme, but it's a trade-off of using a PSX-AR (which I have) or another circuit breaker, so tomato/tomatoe.

If anyone things I've gone off the rails with my thinking, please let me know, all input that helps me avoid costly or stupid mistakes is always appreciated!


Al Silverstein
 

Jim,
 
If the drawing is accurate then there is a rail phasing problem but not where Nick thinks it is. The layout can easily be divided into three power districts.
 
In my opinion power district #1 should be the red and purple areas. Power district #2 should thee the aqua area. Power district #3 should be the green area.
 
My reasoning is as follows.
 
The purple and red power districts form one big loop with a long siding that connects to the aqua power district.
 
The aqua power district is one long spur with several sidings at the end of the line.
 
The green power district is where there are rail phasing issues are located. One end of the green power districts connects to the aqua power district. The other end of the green power district connects to the purple/red power district in four places and diverges into the purple/red power district in both east and west bound directions.
 
Thus the purple/red power district only needs a circuit breaker. The aqua power district only needs a circuit breaker. The green power district needs both a circuit breaker and rail phasing device.
 
Thus when a train crosses the power district boundary between green and aqua the rail phasing device in the green power district matches the rail phasing in the aqua power district.
 
Thus when a train crosses the power district boundary between green and purple/red the rail phasing device in the green power district matches the rail phasing in the purple/red power district.
 
Note there is nothing in the DCC rules that limits the size of the rail phasing section.
 
There are several circuit breakers and rail phasing devices (reverse loops) on the market that can easily get the job done.
 
Should I own the layout and should I have a lot of engines with sound and should I be a HO scale modeler I would power the purple/red power district with the command station, I would power the aqua power district with a booster, and I would power the green power district with a booster that has auto rail phasing capabilities.
 
Just my thoughts
 
Al Silverstein
 
 

From: whmvd
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2021 5:50 AM
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] Seeking reversing section input
 
Jim,
 
"A reversing situation is a path where a train, moving in the forward direction only - can change directions across the same track."
 
That's one of two. The other is a reversal triangle or wye.
 
There's also the trusty turntable, where a loco can pull of the reversing trick without moving at all.
 
Wouter
 
On Sun, 19 Sept 2021 at 09:30, Jim Betz <jimbetz@...> wrote:
Nick,
  I don't see a "reversing section".  A reversing situation is a path where a train,
moving in the forward direction only - can change directions across the same
track.  I see how trains on your layout can go either way on "the purple track" -
but not without a backing maneuver.  What am I missing?
  The track in red can be handled by an auto-reverser ... but I'm not certain it
is necessary. 
                                                                                                         - Jim
_._,_._,_


Jim Betz
 

Nick,

  I -still- don't see it (a train that reverses direction and goes forward at all times).
Even trying to follow others explanations.

  Would you please do this for me/us?  Add several "letters" to the drawing
(A, B, C, etc.) and then tell us the sequence that you think produces a train
that has reversed itself.  Also please add in what you mean by "yard" (I think
I know but I want to be sure).  
  I have gone thru "running a train on the drawing with my cursor" many times
and I keep coming up with the need for a backing move in order to produce a
path that the train will be reversed.  I can do that - easily - in more than one
way.
                                                                                                      - Jim


Tom O'Hara
 

Hi Folks...

A late contribution/suggestion: if I were doing it, I would remove the three turnouts on the red track starting above the word Westfield and moving to the northeast. That also removes the track and passing siding above Westfield, but that track could become a switchback from the blue loop at the lower left. That makes the operation more visible and manageable. Then, if you still want reversing sections, you could use either the rightmost loop (make it purple) or the blue loop at the very bottom of the picture.

Or not...

...Tom

On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 7:47 AM Jim Betz <jimbetz@...> wrote:
Nick,

  I -still- don't see it (a train that reverses direction and goes forward at all times).
Even trying to follow others explanations.

  Would you please do this for me/us?  Add several "letters" to the drawing
(A, B, C, etc.) and then tell us the sequence that you think produces a train
that has reversed itself.  Also please add in what you mean by "yard" (I think
I know but I want to be sure).  
  I have gone thru "running a train on the drawing with my cursor" many times
and I keep coming up with the need for a backing move in order to produce a
path that the train will be reversed.  I can do that - easily - in more than one
way.
                                                                                                      - Jim


Don Vollrath
 

Once you get going CCW around the main loop there is no way to change the direction to go CW without backing up. Is that what you want?

DonV


Nick Ostrosky
 

My apologies, I'm traveling at the moment and don't have access to my plan.  Once I'm back next week I'll label and re-post so it's clear where my concern is.


Nick Ostrosky
 

Back from my travels.  The original file, New RR Design.pdf, has been labeled with arrows added to make it clear where I see a train departing the yard and arriving in the opposite direction.  Train starts at point A and follows the arrows from there to arrive back at point A.  As before, the tracks in red are planned reversing sections (PSX-ARs) as I see them, and I'm simply looking for confirmation that I haven't missed something.  Thanks!


Nick Ostrosky
 

Thank you, Tim.  I’m trying to understand your recommendation.  I do have two existing PSX-ARs I can re-use.  Are you suggesting eliminating the two turnouts altogether, or simply ending the reversing section before it hits those two turnouts (the turnout are part of a prototype yard I’m trying to mimic)?  It might help if I outline my basic points of confusion, keeping in mind this will be in terms of red (left)/black (right) bus wires:

 

1.       The purple line that exits from the top right of the plan and goes through Wellsville and then hits Westfield – it would appear the line when it hits Westfield red/black wires will be reversed at the turnouts on the left side of Westfield.  Extend the reversing section to include Westfield or set up a separate reversing section just for Westfield?

2.       Balloon track in Galeton – Does the branch at the bottom of the loop running to the left of the yard need to be part of the reversing section (I’m thinking no)?

3.       Not sure I follow your comment re: the Dubois branch to the turnout on the lower left.  Dubois is a point-to-point branch and I don’t see how that is affected by a reversing section.

 

If it would help I can post the plan in a PowerPoint or other format so specific notes could be added.  Thanks!

 

Nick

 


Jim Betz
 

Nick,
  OK, I see now how you can go thru the same piece(s) of track in two directions - but
always running forward.  Those pieces are from A to B.  If you are on 'the loop' (the
track that is C,D,E,F and coming back to C (or F in the other direction) you can not
have a reversing situation.  I had to mentally unfold the yard areas (A and B) in order
to see it.  I assume the cross-over between A and B is on the same level - but it 
makes very little difference.
  So thinking about this situation you can describe it as a "loop that goes to very
complicated track from both side/direction of the loop - in other words all of your
main yard (including the branch to Dubois) and the part that I'm going to call 'the
engine facility' that is on the right side and has a black rectangle in it is a wye and
not a reversing loop ... because in order to actually reverse a train running on the
main loop you have to have a backing move.  But it -is- a reversing section.
  Many guys handle wyes by "feeding the power from which ever side of the wye
the train is currently coming from" ... i.e. from the wye switch.

  I predict you are going to have a problem with the -length- of the track from points
C and/or F ... they are fairly short and it is entirely possible that you might end up
with a reversing section that is shorter than your longest train ... perhaps even
highly likely since that section is shorter than your longest yard track. 
  You have 3 turnouts that are "tricky" (in terms of this reversing discussion).
The one nearest C, the one nearest F, and B (the one nearest the cross-over).

  I don't have a solution/recommendation ... at this time.  I'm going to have to
think about it and study your track diagram more.  I'll get back to you.

  BTW - you mentioned having two PSX-AR reversers.  Most layout owners have
had problems with two AR reversers that have a common point.  This is usually
able to be solved by setting up different trip times (think duration between retries).
When you do this the trains -will- run thru ... but sometimes you can still have a
hesitation/stutter.  It is best to avoid having two ARs in adjacent blocks.
                                                                                                                    - Jim


Tim
 

Nick, it might help to do a schematic of the layout so you (and everyone else) can see the track connections without all the convolutions.

As far as reversing sections go, it might be best to make the track from E>F>C>D>E all part of the red section. That is just a loop. Make all of the green section your reversing section. That would work, but you can't have multiple trains crossing the boundaries at the same time. I'd use a PSX-AR for the reversing section, it would serve as both a reverser and a circuit breaker.

Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC


Don Weigt
 

Tim,

I don't understand why you have made the reversing sections where you have, unless you're trying to equalize the loads on the power districts, and the Autoreverser is your fourth district. Most of the mainline is reversed, for no reason I can see.

I'd autoreverse the track beginning with Westfield, gapping both rails of both tracks coming into Westfield from the left, gapping the main line before the first turnout to reduce the number of double gaps. Or, if the turnouts are power routing like my Shinoharas, then gaps will be needed on the point rails between those two turnouts, so I'd gap both rails of all three tracks, just below the left end of the Westfield spur track.

I'd continue the reversing section unbroken through E, F, and C to Dubois, making certain the track from the turnout below C to the double gap at Dubois is at least as long as your longest train. That's all. Not including Dubois or Wellsville.

Every place the yard connects to this autoreverse section needs both rails gapped, of course. There is one place between B and C, where the yard track connects to the mainline, one near Galeton, where the opposite leg of the turnout should be double gapped, one where the green yard track connects again below B and above Westfield, and both tracks near the arrow at F.

I'll try to send printouts with my suggested reversing sections highlighted and pencil marks where I'd gap both rails. Look them over, and see if they leave or create any problems.

Don Weigt
Connecticut

--
Don Weigt
Connecticut


Don Weigt
 

I've uploaded pdf scans to the Files area. I couldn't find Nick's layout folder, so just dropped them in the Files folder. Perhaps someone could move them for me to the folder for Nick's layout.

Don Weigt
Connecticut


--
Don Weigt
Connecticut


Don Weigt
 

While there are many tracks, if you print out the track plan and look at it carefully, you'll see it comes down to a mainline oval, with a yard connected as a wye at F, with multiple tracks for each leg of the wye, a branch line to Dubois off it, and a reversing loop through the yard connecting back to the mainline at Westfield..

Usual practice would be to wire the whole mainline for fixed phase power, and switch the phase of the wye. But, in this case, there could be more trains running in the yard and the branch line than the mainline. Autoreversing is triggered by an overload, or "short", and with multiple trains on the reversing section, that short circuit current limit might need to be very high to prevent nuisance tripping. That's why I suggested wiring only part of the mainline for autoreversing. And, only the connections at the ends of the minimum reversing section ever need to switch phases.

Where the yard crosses over the mainline at B will require a well isolated crossing if it's at grade. The drawing suggests to me that the yard track crosses above the mainline, which would be an interesting feature.

It has been mentioned that care will be needed to prevent  running trains across multiple reversing connections a the same time. That isn't new or unique: it's true of every reversing connection, whether a loop or a wye.





--
Don Weigt
Connecticut