Topics

Reversing Section Wiring question

Blair & Rasa
 

Hi Folks

I've placed "Wawa_Reversing.jpg" in the files section.  The background is:

The layout is HO, with Digitrax DCC.  This is a sinter mill scene.  A train from the junction will visit the sinter mill once daily, arriving by the lower track at right.  It brings empty ore cars from the steel mill, and occasionally other items, such as plant equipment, additives for the sinter, fuel for the fuel dealer, propane for the propane dealer, log empties for the pulpwood spur, etc. etc.  Generally, all or a portion of the arriving train proceeds straight to the harbour scene, via the track at upper right.  At the harbour, the train drops empties and picks up loads of limestone, coke, and sometimes ore.  Empty fuel tankcars are exchanged for loads at the oil terminal.  The train then returns to the Sinter mill, where things get interesting.

What I'm looking for, though, is just a wiring suggestion.  The section in green clearly needs to be a reversing section, and with three points of entry it can't be based on the position of a single turnout, so should be an automated reverser.  Some trains, however, will be long enough to bridge the short section of reversing track across the top.  I'm considering whether to just flip the whole darn branch to the harbour, as well as the rest of the trackage, as shown in red.  I can't see a down side to doing this.  There will only ever be one train operating on the branch, so only one consist.  However, all cars will have metal wheels, meaning there will be the potential for simultaneous reversal need at both ends of a reversing section.

Suggestions?

Blair Smith

Puckdropper
 

Take a look at that tail track on the right-hand side of the green.  That can be wired to a switch machine to avoid needing a reverser there.

Now, take a look at the lower section in red.  I'd probably put my autoreverser there, depending on how long the area actually is.

If you want a longer reversing section, you may consider putting part of the yard ladder on the reverser and doing the entire loop.  Even though you have what look like multiple entrances to the reversing section, only one can be used at a time.  You always need to stay off the switch to prevent shorts.

I have not analyzed the track plan in detail, so I might have missed something.  Please take these for what they are: ideas.

Puckdropper

---In wiringfordcc@..., <smithbr@...> wrote :

Hi Folks

I've placed "Wawa_Reversing.jpg" in the files section.  The background is:

The layout is HO, with Digitrax DCC.  This is a sinter mill scene.  A
train from the junction will visit the sinter mill once daily, arriving
by the lower track at right.  It brings empty ore cars from the steel
mill, and occasionally other items, such as plant equipment, additives
for the sinter, fuel for the fuel dealer, propane for the propane
dealer, log empties for the pulpwood spur, etc. etc.  Generally, all or
a portion of the arriving train proceeds straight to the harbour scene,
via the track at upper right.  At the harbour, the train drops empties
and picks up loads of limestone, coke, and sometimes ore.  Empty fuel
tankcars are exchanged for loads at the oil terminal.  The train then
returns to the Sinter mill, where things get interesting.

What I'm looking for, though, is just a wiring suggestion.  The section
in green clearly needs to be a reversing section, and with three points
of entry it can't be based on the position of a single turnout, so
should be an automated reverser.  Some trains, however, will be long
enough to bridge the short section of reversing track across the top. 
I'm considering whether to just flip the whole darn branch to the
harbour, as well as the rest of the trackage, as shown in red.  I can't
see a down side to doing this.  There will only ever be one train
operating on the branch, so only one consist.  However, all cars will
have metal wheels, meaning there will be the potential for simultaneous
reversal need at both ends of a reversing section.

Suggestions?

Blair Smith

Vollrath, Don <don.vollrath@...>
 

Blair,
Clearly the Green section of track is a reversing section. It has three entrances.

If all trains will always be shorter than the Green section simply make the Green section an auto-reversing track. Wire the Red track sections the same constant polarity as shown in black.

If train length can span the entire Green section, then wire up all of the Red tracks as part of the Green auto-reversing section.

Since you will be moving only one train at a time there is no real penalty for having an extended length of reversing section.

DonV

-----Original Message-----
From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 5:23 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Reversing Section Wiring question

Hi Folks

I've placed "Wawa_Reversing.jpg" in the files section.  The background is:

The layout is HO, with Digitrax DCC.  This is a sinter mill scene.  A train from the junction will visit the sinter mill once daily, arriving by the lower track at right.  It brings empty ore cars from the steel mill, and occasionally other items, such as plant equipment, additives for the sinter, fuel for the fuel dealer, propane for the propane dealer, log empties for the pulpwood spur, etc. etc.  Generally, all or a portion of the arriving train proceeds straight to the harbour scene, via the track at upper right.  At the harbour, the train drops empties and picks up loads of limestone, coke, and sometimes ore.  Empty fuel tankcars are exchanged for loads at the oil terminal.  The train then returns to the Sinter mill, where things get interesting.

What I'm looking for, though, is just a wiring suggestion.  The section in green clearly needs to be a reversing section, and with three points of entry it can't be based on the position of a single turnout, so should be an automated reverser.  Some trains, however, will be long enough to bridge the short section of reversing track across the top. I'm considering whether to just flip the whole darn branch to the harbour, as well as the rest of the trackage, as shown in red.  I can't see a down side to doing this.  There will only ever be one train operating on the branch, so only one consist.  However, all cars will have metal wheels, meaning there will be the potential for simultaneous reversal need at both ends of a reversing section.

Suggestions?

Blair Smith



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Blair & Rasa
 

Thanks, Don.  That was my thinking; since the A/D train will often be longer than the green, it makes sense to make the green plus red all one large autoreversing section.  Consists will often be 4 SD40-2 units, lead and trailing units sound equipped, so a relay reverser doesn't really cut it, unless one puts up with the sound resets, or outfits all applicable locos with keep-alive addons to avoid the resets, or artificially restricts the use of the switch at the lower right so that it never needs changing with sound units in the reversing section.  Not prototypical, as they arrived by running LH through that switch, but departed through the RH position after switching the harbour, then the sinter plant.

It does remain a little hairy, however, when I think about all the possible switching patterns, and whether they're adequately covered off by the large reverser.  I'll have to think it through a bit more, and if I see an exposed reversing scenario, I'll be back.

Thanks, both of you

Blair

Vollrath, Don <don.vollrath@...>
 

Your operating description is a little hard to follow as there are no location names shown on the track sketch.
Also not sure if it is drawn to any scale or if there are other track extensions off to the right of either the upper or lower black stub tracks. Your saving grace is that the plan is to move only one train at a time. The only possible hooker is if you leave a steel wheeled car stuck in a gap at one end while you move the loco out the other end. The fix for that is to make track gaps large enough and fill them with plastic shaped to the railhead so that a steel wheel can never touch both sides of the gap at the same time. A loco is then free to traverse the gaps at the other end and let the A-R unit to do its thing.

On my home layout I got tired of playing with relay or track switched reversing controllers and put in an OGAR. It auto-polarity trips at ~4 amps and acts as a circuit breaker in the case of derailment. Works like a charm from my 5 amp booster. No headlight blinks or sound disturbances at either end.

DonV

-----Original Message-----
From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 11:19 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Reversing Section Wiring question

Thanks, Don.  That was my thinking; since the A/D train will often be longer than the green, it makes sense to make the green plus red all one large autoreversing section.  Consists will often be 4 SD40-2 units, lead and trailing units sound equipped, so a relay reverser doesn't really cut it, unless one puts up with the sound resets, or outfits all applicable locos with keep-alive addons to avoid the resets, or artificially restricts the use of the switch at the lower right so that it never needs changing with sound units in the reversing section.  Not prototypical, as they arrived by running LH through that switch, but departed through the RH position after switching the harbour, then the sinter plant.

It does remain a little hairy, however, when I think about all the possible switching patterns, and whether they're adequately covered off by the large reverser.  I'll have to think it through a bit more, and if I see an exposed reversing scenario, I'll be back.

Thanks, both of you

Blair




------------------------------------
Posted by: Blair & Rasa <smithbr@...>
------------------------------------

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------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links

Blair & Rasa
 

Don

In my original email, I described traffic as follows:

"A train from the junction will visit the sinter mill once daily, arriving by the lower track at right... Generally, all or a portion of the arriving train proceeds straight to the harbour scene, via the track at upper right... The train then returns to the sinter mill, where things get interesting."

So what isn't clear?  trains arrive lower right, exit to harbour,  and return, via upper right.  I didn't say it, but scale is HO, the grid is 12"; trains are expected to consist of 4 SD40-2 units plus 25 +/-  Ortner ore cars (6" ea), for a typical length around 15 feet.  Surely the visual ratio of switch lengths to track lengths gives you some idea of the constraints?  If a track is 4x the length of a switch, in HO or N, or likely G,  the track probably holds 6-8 cars, depending on car length and switch size obviously. 

The issue is, depending upon how one switches that center diagonal track pair, one can easily end up bridging from normal-power main to the reversing section at both ends of the train, even with the augmented large reversing section as depicted.  
But maybe I've found it.  See my new posting to files.  I think this works, satisfying the longest possible trains.  I added clarification info where necessary.

Blair Smith




On 2017-12-06 13:37, 'Vollrath, Don' don.vollrath@... [WiringForDCC] wrote:
Your operating description is a little hard to follow as there are no location names shown on the track sketch.
Also not sure if it is drawn to any scale or if there are other track extensions off to the right of either the upper or lower black stub tracks. Your saving grace is that the plan is to move only one train at a time. The only possible hooker is if you leave a steel wheeled car stuck in a gap at one end while you move the loco out the other end. The fix for that is to make track gaps large enough and fill them with plastic shaped to the railhead so that a steel wheel can never touch both sides of the gap at the same time. A loco is then free to traverse the gaps at the other end and let the A-R unit to do its thing. 

On my home layout I got tired of playing with relay or track switched reversing controllers and put in an OGAR. It auto-polarity trips at ~4 amps and acts as a circuit breaker in the case of derailment. Works like a charm from my 5 amp booster. No headlight blinks or sound disturbances at either end.

DonV  

-----Original Message-----
From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 11:19 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Reversing Section Wiring question

Thanks, Don.  That was my thinking; since the A/D train will often be longer than the green, it makes sense to make the green plus red all one large autoreversing section.  Consists will often be 4 SD40-2 units, lead and trailing units sound equipped, so a relay reverser doesn't really cut it, unless one puts up with the sound resets, or outfits all applicable locos with keep-alive addons to avoid the resets, or artificially restricts the use of the switch at the lower right so that it never needs changing with sound units in the reversing section.  Not prototypical, as they arrived by running LH through that switch, but departed through the RH position after switching the harbour, then the sinter plant.

It does remain a little hairy, however, when I think about all the possible switching patterns, and whether they're adequately covered off by the large reverser.  I'll have to think it through a bit more, and if I see an exposed reversing scenario, I'll be back.

Thanks, both of you

Blair




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Blair & Rasa
 

I'll try to post it later.  Yahoo won't let me post it, for some reason.

B


On 2017-12-06 14:43, Blair & Rasa smithbr@... [WiringForDCC] wrote:

Don

In my original email, I described traffic as follows:

"A train from the junction will visit the sinter mill once daily, arriving by the lower track at right... Generally, all or a portion of the arriving train proceeds straight to the harbour scene, via the track at upper right... The train then returns to the sinter mill, where things get interesting."

So what isn't clear?  trains arrive lower right, exit to harbour,  and return, via upper right.  I didn't say it, but scale is HO, the grid is 12"; trains are expected to consist of 4 SD40-2 units plus 25 +/-  Ortner ore cars (6" ea), for a typical length around 15 feet.  Surely the visual ratio of switch lengths to track lengths gives you some idea of the constraints?  If a track is 4x the length of a switch, in HO or N, or likely G,  the track probably holds 6-8 cars, depending on car length and switch size obviously. 

The issue is, depending upon how one switches that center diagonal track pair, one can easily end up bridging from normal-power main to the reversing section at both ends of the train, even with the augmented large reversing section as depicted.  
But maybe I've found it.  See my new posting to files.  I think this works, satisfying the longest possible trains.  I added clarification info where necessary.

Blair Smith




On 2017-12-06 13:37, 'Vollrath, Don' don.vollrath@... [WiringForDCC] wrote:
Your operating description is a little hard to follow as there are no location names shown on the track sketch.
Also not sure if it is drawn to any scale or if there are other track extensions off to the right of either the upper or lower black stub tracks. Your saving grace is that the plan is to move only one train at a time. The only possible hooker is if you leave a steel wheeled car stuck in a gap at one end while you move the loco out the other end. The fix for that is to make track gaps large enough and fill them with plastic shaped to the railhead so that a steel wheel can never touch both sides of the gap at the same time. A loco is then free to traverse the gaps at the other end and let the A-R unit to do its thing. 

On my home layout I got tired of playing with relay or track switched reversing controllers and put in an OGAR. It auto-polarity trips at ~4 amps and acts as a circuit breaker in the case of derailment. Works like a charm from my 5 amp booster. No headlight blinks or sound disturbances at either end.

DonV  

-----Original Message-----
From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 11:19 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Reversing Section Wiring question

Thanks, Don.  That was my thinking; since the A/D train will often be longer than the green, it makes sense to make the green plus red all one large autoreversing section.  Consists will often be 4 SD40-2 units, lead and trailing units sound equipped, so a relay reverser doesn't really cut it, unless one puts up with the sound resets, or outfits all applicable locos with keep-alive addons to avoid the resets, or artificially restricts the use of the switch at the lower right so that it never needs changing with sound units in the reversing section.  Not prototypical, as they arrived by running LH through that switch, but departed through the RH position after switching the harbour, then the sinter plant.

It does remain a little hairy, however, when I think about all the possible switching patterns, and whether they're adequately covered off by the large reverser.  I'll have to think it through a bit more, and if I see an exposed reversing scenario, I'll be back.

Thanks, both of you

Blair




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Posted by: "Vollrath, Don" 
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Blair & Rasa
 

Don't know what's with groups.  Restarted my browser, entered groups via email link instead of neo, still nothing.  Click on upload, select file, add comment, click save, window grays out and nothing happens.
Oh well.  I'll send the file to Don via email.
Blair

Blair & Rasa
 

Hi Don
New sketch attached.
Regards
Blair


On 2017-12-06 14:43, Blair & Rasa smithbr@... [WiringForDCC] wrote:


Don

In my original email, I described traffic as follows:

"A train from the junction will visit the sinter mill once daily,
arriving by the lower track at right... Generally, all or a portion of
the arriving train proceeds straight to the harbour scene, via the
track at upper right... The train then returns to the sinter mill,
where things get interesting." So what isn't clear? trains arrive
lower right, exit to harbour, and return, via upper right. I didn't
say it, but scale is HO, the grid is 12"; trains are expected to
consist of 4 SD40-2 units plus 25 +/- Ortner ore cars (6" ea), for a
typical length around 15 feet. Surely the visual ratio of switch
lengths to track lengths gives you some idea of the constraints? If a
track is 4x the length of a switch, in HO or N, or likely G, the track
probably holds 6-8 cars, depending on car length and switch size
obviously. The issue is, depending upon how one switches that center
diagonal track pair, one can easily end up bridging from normal-power
main to the reversing section at both ends of the train, even with the
augmented large reversing section as depicted.
But maybe I've found it.  See my new posting to files.  I think this
works, satisfying the longest possible trains.  I added clarification
info where necessary.

Blair Smith




On 2017-12-06 13:37, 'Vollrath, Don' don.vollrath@...
[WiringForDCC] wrote:
Your operating description is a little hard to follow as there are no location names shown on the track sketch.
Also not sure if it is drawn to any scale or if there are other track extensions off to the right of either the upper or lower black stub tracks. Your saving grace is that the plan is to move only one train at a time. The only possible hooker is if you leave a steel wheeled car stuck in a gap at one end while you move the loco out the other end. The fix for that is to make track gaps large enough and fill them with plastic shaped to the railhead so that a steel wheel can never touch both sides of the gap at the same time. A loco is then free to traverse the gaps at the other end and let the A-R unit to do its thing.

On my home layout I got tired of playing with relay or track switched reversing controllers and put in an OGAR. It auto-polarity trips at ~4 amps and acts as a circuit breaker in the case of derailment. Works like a charm from my 5 amp booster. No headlight blinks or sound disturbances at either end.

DonV

-----Original Message-----
From:WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 11:19 AM
To:WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Reversing Section Wiring question

Thanks, Don.  That was my thinking; since the A/D train will often be longer than the green, it makes sense to make the green plus red all one large autoreversing section.  Consists will often be 4 SD40-2 units, lead and trailing units sound equipped, so a relay reverser doesn't really cut it, unless one puts up with the sound resets, or outfits all applicable locos with keep-alive addons to avoid the resets, or artificially restricts the use of the switch at the lower right so that it never needs changing with sound units in the reversing section.  Not prototypical, as they arrived by running LH through that switch, but departed through the RH position after switching the harbour, then the sinter plant.

It does remain a little hairy, however, when I think about all the possible switching patterns, and whether they're adequately covered off by the large reverser.  I'll have to think it through a bit more, and if I see an exposed reversing scenario, I'll be back.

Thanks, both of you

Blair




------------------------------------
Posted by: Blair & Rasa<smithbr@...>
------------------------------------

http://www.WiringForDCC.com
------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links





------------------------------------
Posted by: "Vollrath, Don"<Don.Vollrath@...>
------------------------------------

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------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Blair & Rasa
 

Still can't post anything to files.  Don has helped me determine the best solution, anyway, but it's impossible to provide the final version.  Thanks, folks.

Blair



On 2017-12-06 15:14, smithbr@... [WiringForDCC] wrote:
Don't know what's with groups.  Restarted my browser, entered groups via email link instead of neo, still nothing.  Click on upload, select file, add comment, click save, window grays out and nothing happens.
Oh well.  I'll send the file to Don via email.
Blair