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Older Shinohara Turnout Confusion

Rick Beatty
 

Allan's page for wiring older Shinohara turnouts has two methods for making them DCC friendly and how to subsequently wire them.

There is also a short section that says you can try to use them unmodified out of the box and hope you don't have shorts.  (I am paraphrasing.)  That seems too simple compared to the major modifications in the other methods.

What am I missing here?  Is there more to the modifications than just avoiding a short?

Rick

Craig Zeni
 

On May 10, 2019, at 9:33 AM, Richard Beatty wrote:

Allan's page for wiring older Shinohara turnouts has two methods for making them DCC friendly and how to subsequently wire them.

There is also a short section that says you can try to use them unmodified out of the box and hope you don't have shorts. (I am paraphrasing.) That seems too simple compared to the major modifications in the other methods.

What am I missing here? Is there more to the modifications than just avoiding a short?
The common problem with old Shinohara turnouts is that the open point rail is too close to the backside of the wheel, eg, the point rail gap aka back-to-back doesn't meet the NMRA guage. When the backside of the wheel touches the open point, it's a dead short thru the wheel to the rail it's running on. We ran for years on a layout with a hundred old Shinoharas that had been gone thru over time (as they created issues); eventually they ran without shorting problems and ran reliably. IF ( and that's a giant IF) your wheels and your turnouts are all up to NMRA scratch, you'll have good performance.

Craig Zeni
Cary NC

wirefordcc
 

Hi Rick,

Do you really have some of the older Shinohara turnouts?  I'd imagine they are pretty rare now.

Before I answer your question, be aware that there will be new Walthers turnouts in a few months.  There may be some differences from the Walthers/Shinoharas that everyone loved until the factory shut down late last year.  I'm eager to see one when they come out.

Whether you modify your turnouts really depends on your soldering skills.  Soldering pieces of metal rail attached to plastic ties can be a challenge and isn't for everyone.  I'd hate for you to ruin a bunch of turnouts trying to get the job done.  Now that you can't get Walthers/Shinohara turnouts right now, it would not only be expensive to damage them, but replacing them may be impossible.  Note that other brands of turnouts are usually not physically interchangeable.

Allan Gartner
Wiring For DCC

Rick Beatty
 

I built my layout about 20 years ago and used mainly Peco electrofrog turnouts.   They were all modified to make them DCC friendly.  There was one section where I put a Shinohara turnout on the mainline to go into an industrial siding. I designed it to use another Shinohara turnout to create two tracks and bought them, but only used the one on the mainline that goes to nowhere. 

I am finally getting around to finishing that section and needed to bone up on how to wire and modify the turnouts. The scene is a steel mill high line and I will just back ore cars onto it.  The locomotives won’t go past the first turnout. 

I am inclined to roll the dice but wanted to ask for opinions first. 

Brian Eiland
 

I have a couple of those older Shinohara double crossovers, and I am really hoping to use at least one of them,...and particularly because of its 2" centerline track dimensions. Here is a subject thread I started on the subject just recently,..

Double-Crossover Dissection, and particularly Shinohara

https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/36467 

One appendix I saw on Allan's site was this one,...


Double Crossover Tutorial

G.T. Galyon has shared his experience with the Walther's/Shinohara double crossovers.  Click below on his tutorial on implementing these crossovers.

DoubleCrossover_Galyon.pdf

 

This is one of the most clear explanations I have run across. He also describes how to utilize the older crossovers with very minimal modifications. I need to reread it again to insure I understand it all.

There are a few additional questions I would like to ask of him. Would anyone know how to contact the gentleman thru email??

 

Jennifer Lobo
 

Peco streamline points are all based on 2 inch spacing too.


Geoff Clarke


On Saturday, May 11, 2019, 9:55:08 a.m. EDT, Brian Eiland <railandsail@...> wrote:


I have a couple of those older Shinohara double crossovers, and I am really hoping to use at least one of them,...and particularly because of its 2" centerline track dimensions. Here is a subject thread I started on the subject just recently,..

Double-Crossover Dissection, and particularly Shinohara

https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/36467 

One appendix I saw on Allan's site was this one,...





Double Crossover Tutorial

G.T. Galyon has shared his experience with the Walther's/Shinohara double crossovers.  Click below on his tutorial on implementing these crossovers.

DoubleCrossover_Galyon.pdf

 

This is one of the most clear explanations I have run across. He also describes how to utilize the older crossovers with very minimal modifications. I need to reread it again to insure I understand it all.

There are a few additional questions I would like to ask of him. Would anyone know how to contact the gentleman thru email??

 

Don Vollrath
 

It is interesting to note that if one flips all 4 throwbars to either be straight or 'X-over' there is no need to worry about shorts at the frogs. No special gaps required or other bonding wires. Yes this does rely on the rail points for making good electrical contact. The exception of course is that older wheel sets with over sized flanges or ones out of gauge may still lick an opposite polarity rail on the back side. Not totally 'DCC Friendly' according to the letters but mine give flawless performance.
DonV 

Bill Wilken
 

I threw in the towel with the Code 83 #6 crossovers.  Long wheelbase 4-8-4s just cannot negotiate them decently.


On May 11, 2019, at 9:55 AM, Brian Eiland <railandsail@...> wrote:

I have a couple of those older Shinohara double crossovers, and I am really hoping to use at least one of them,...and particularly because of its 2" centerline track dimensions. Here is a subject thread I started on the subject just recently,..

Double-Crossover Dissection, and particularly Shinohara

https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/36467 

One appendix I saw on Allan's site was this one,...


Double Crossover Tutorial

G.T. Galyon has shared his experience with the Walther's/Shinohara double crossovers.  Click below on his tutorial on implementing these crossovers.

DoubleCrossover_Galyon.pdf

 

This is one of the most clear explanations I have run across. He also describes how to utilize the older crossovers with very minimal modifications. I need to reread it again to insure I understand it all.

There are a few additional questions I would like to ask of him. Would anyone know how to contact the gentleman thru email??

 

Rick Beatty
 

Thanks for those links.  After reading those and some other discussions I now have a better understanding of the issues.

George Galyon
 

On the Shinohara double x-overs I am familiar with the "flipping all 4 crossbars" technique eliminates shorts on the "newer" code 100 doubles (the ones with the single crossbar) but it is not sufficient of and by itself for the older
code 100 double cross-bar doubles.  For the older double crossbar crossovers you need to do a little insulation work on the K crossings (the leftmost and the rightmost crossings) by coating the sidewalls of the rails on all 4 sides of the crossing point/s.  Nail polish will work but only for a little while.  I ended up using JB weld and we have run successfully for over 2 years now w/o shorting through the K or X crossings.  We also get through the point-stock rail gaps w/o shorting...maybe our gaps were on the high side of the spec. because some reports indicate that long cars can't make it through without shorting between the point rail and the stock rail.  I have run 80' passenger cars and a Westside Q-2 (4-4-6-4...solid frame) through 4 different Shinohara code 100 double X-overs w/o any shorting problems...could be that I am just lucky..

I do note that some of Alan Gartner's W4DCC authors have quite different experiences with the Shinohara doubles...they apparently had to go the "gap, switch,  and wire" route to get short-free performance.  I got the impression that we
were not working with the same hardware...

I will miss the Shinohara turnouts.  I had a layout with Shinohara code 70 track, turnouts, and a C70 double x-over.  Our current club layout has "very old" Shinohara C100 doubles and a "very old" Shionohara C100 three-way...all worked very well as long as you could jumper wire the point to closure rail connection (if necessary).   And you could see how the Shinohara family constantly improved their product over the years...they really paid attention.  Yes..their little contact
strips at the points could get jammed up...on occasion.  But that was fixable...no biggie. 

BTW...none of the commercially available turnouts are "perfect"...they all have their little gremlins. 

George Galyon
 

You can contact me at redvdub1@...
G. T. Galyon