Topics

Newbie Reversing Loop Help!


Larry Moray
 

Hi All:

Long story short; I am totally new to model railroading and DCC.  Although Allen recommends starting off simply, I’m a big learn by doing person and have created a layout that requires a little guidance.

The layout runs around and across an existing HO slot car table and I am planning another level, but the current main level contains multiple reserving loops and I’m hoping someone can give me a hand.

I plan to use Digitrax AR1 modules, but am not sure exactly;y where to gap the track or solder the AR1’s.  
Please take a look at my layout, I’d appreciate any and all insights you might have to offer.


Thanks VERY much for your patience and guidance.

Have a GREAT weekend!

Larry J Moray, DDS, MS
President, The Happy Tooth featuring MyOrthodontist
919.259.2280

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Larry Moray
 

PS: You can see where I have already anticipated double gaps and one AR1, but I realize this set up is more complex!!

THX!!
Larry J Moray, DDS, MS
President, The Happy Tooth featuring MyOrthodontist
919.259.2280

Statement of Confidentiality
 
The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are confidential and are intended solely for addressee. The information may also be legally privileged. This transmission is sent in trust, for the sole purpose of delivery to the intended recipient. If you have received this transmission in error, any use, reproduction or dissemination of this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please immediately notify the sender by reply e-mail or phone and delete this message and its attachments, if any.





On Oct 18, 2020, at 8:00 AM, Larry Moray via groups.io <Larry.Moray@...> wrote:

Hi All:

Long story short; I am totally new to model railroading and DCC.  Although Allen recommends starting off simply, I’m a big learn by doing person and have created a layout that requires a little guidance.

The layout runs around and across an existing HO slot car table and I am planning another level, but the current main level contains multiple reserving loops and I’m hoping someone can give me a hand.

I plan to use Digitrax AR1 modules, but am not sure exactly;y where to gap the track or solder the AR1’s.  
Please take a look at my layout, I’d appreciate any and all insights you might have to offer.


Thanks VERY much for your patience and guidance.

Have a GREAT weekend!

Larry J Moray, DDS, MS
President, The Happy Tooth featuring MyOrthodontist
919.259.2280

Statement of Confidentiality
 
The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are confidential and are intended solely for addressee. The information may also be legally privileged. This transmission is sent in trust, for the sole purpose of delivery to the intended recipient. If you have received this transmission in error, any use, reproduction or dissemination of this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please immediately notify the sender by reply e-mail or phone and delete this message and its attachments, if any.







D B
 

Larry,

Haven’t quite figured out the layout, but I was in a similar position a short time ago.  A couple of important principles (Rules) I learned are:

1.  You must have a non-reversing segment between any two reversing segments, i.e., two reversing segments should not be back-to-back.

2.  The reversing segment must be longer than your longest train.  Looking at your layout it appears that some of your segments likely would violate this rule.  

Originally I believed my layout would require 6 AR circuits.  That was incorrectly based on mistakenly applying block detection concepts.  I learned that in reality I only had 2.   You might not have as many as you thought. 

Decide on what is your “base” (non-switching) path.  Then ignore sidings and turn-outs which result in trains that go in the same direction (no change in “polarity/phase”).  Those are wired the sane as the base track with no AR circuitry  Those segments do not need AR isolation.

Now identify segments which “reverse” the train’s direction as it returns to the “base” layout.  Be sure the length of the segment is adequate.  Now install plastic insulating joiners at both ends — before and after the respective turnouts from and to the base layout.  

Do not attempt to wire multiple AR segments in series.  If you want to put a second reversing loop within a segment that is already a reversing segment, you’d need a non-reversing segment, wired with the same “polarity/phase” as the base layout and at least as long as the longest train, separating the two AR segments.  That might be difficult to achieve on your layout since some of the potential candidate segments appear to be quite short.  

Initially I found the length-of-train rule difficult to understand because I was focused on looking at what was happening as the train moved “forward” across the gap between segments.  But you also look backwards and remember that steel wheels on cars will create a similar short at the rear of the train as they cross a different gap, resulting in AR segments switching back and forth and effectively fighting against one another until they quickly fry their brains (a non-technical term 😀).

Hope that helps a bit.

Bill D
N&W Steam only


On Oct 18, 2020, at 8:00 AM, Larry Moray via groups.io <Larry.Moray@...> wrote:


Hi All:

Long story short; I am totally new to model railroading and DCC.  Although Allen recommends starting off simply, I’m a big learn by doing person and have created a layout that requires a little guidance.

The layout runs around and across an existing HO slot car table and I am planning another level, but the current main level contains multiple reserving loops and I’m hoping someone can give me a hand.

I plan to use Digitrax AR1 modules, but am not sure exactly;y where to gap the track or solder the AR1’s.  
Please take a look at my layout, I’d appreciate any and all insights you might have to offer.


Thanks VERY much for your patience and guidance.

Have a GREAT weekend!

Larry J Moray, DDS, MS
President, The Happy Tooth featuring MyOrthodontist
919.259.2280

Statement of Confidentiality
 
The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are confidential and are intended solely for addressee. The information may also be legally privileged. This transmission is sent in trust, for the sole purpose of delivery to the intended recipient. If you have received this transmission in error, any use, reproduction or dissemination of this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please immediately notify the sender by reply e-mail or phone and delete this message and its attachments, if any.






wirefordcc
 

Hi Larry,

Welcome to model railroading and Digital Command Control!

I see one reversing section.   That is the entire section you have labeled as "A" between the two turnouts at each end of "A".  Insulate both rails at each end of section "A" right after it leaves the turnouts.  

Attach the output of the AR1 to section "A".  The input of your AR1 connects to your booster.

Check out my website: http://www.wiringfordcc.com/   You will want to read the page on DCC for Beginners.  http://www.wiringfordcc.com/intro2dcc.htm  Be sure to check out the info on reversing:  http://www.wiringfordcc.com/intro2dcc.htm#a26   and http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm#c4 before you get too far.

Enjoy!

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC


Larry Moray
 

Thx Bill et all!

To clarify my layout: If you look closely you’ll see a rectangular table, that is 12’x4’ and I have added extension shelves to allow room for the layout.  It began as one big oval, but…

Starting at the lower right, the trains would be coming up from a lower level and have the option of taking either the ‘A’ leg or ‘C’ leg.  The ‘A’ leg would set up a counter-clockwise rotation path while the ‘C’ leg would allow clockwise rotation.  

Either clockwise or counter-clockwise directions would permit the train to run on the larger oval around the table, or taking the ‘C’ leg turn out off of the counter-clockwise path or the ‘A’ leg turn out off of the clockwise path would enable the train to head back to the lower level.

Am I making sense??  Does that change anyone’s perspective??

Thanks VERY much for your help, it’s clear I have lots of reading to do, and then trial by fire!  😁

Larry J Moray, DDS, MS
President, The Happy Tooth featuring MyOrthodontist
919.259.2280

Statement of Confidentiality
 
The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are confidential and are intended solely for addressee. The information may also be legally privileged. This transmission is sent in trust, for the sole purpose of delivery to the intended recipient. If you have received this transmission in error, any use, reproduction or dissemination of this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please immediately notify the sender by reply e-mail or phone and delete this message and its attachments, if any.





On Oct 18, 2020, at 9:22 AM, D B <1932mgj2@...> wrote:

Larry,

Haven’t quite figured out the layout, but I was in a similar position a short time ago.  A couple of important principles (Rules) I learned are:

1.  You must have a non-reversing segment between any two reversing segments, i.e., two reversing segments should not be back-to-back.

2.  The reversing segment must be longer than your longest train.  Looking at your layout it appears that some of your segments likely would violate this rule.  

Originally I believed my layout would require 6 AR circuits.  That was incorrectly based on mistakenly applying block detection concepts.  I learned that in reality I only had 2.   You might not have as many as you thought. 

Decide on what is your “base” (non-switching) path.  Then ignore sidings and turn-outs which result in trains that go in the same direction (no change in “polarity/phase”).  Those are wired the sane as the base track with no AR circuitry  Those segments do not need AR isolation.

Now identify segments which “reverse” the train’s direction as it returns to the “base” layout.  Be sure the length of the segment is adequate.  Now install plastic insulating joiners at both ends — before and after the respective turnouts from and to the base layout.  

Do not attempt to wire multiple AR segments in series.  If you want to put a second reversing loop within a segment that is already a reversing segment, you’d need a non-reversing segment, wired with the same “polarity/phase” as the base layout and at least as long as the longest train, separating the two AR segments.  That might be difficult to achieve on your layout since some of the potential candidate segments appear to be quite short.  

Initially I found the length-of-train rule difficult to understand because I was focused on looking at what was happening as the train moved “forward” across the gap between segments.  But you also look backwards and remember that steel wheels on cars will create a similar short at the rear of the train as they cross a different gap, resulting in AR segments switching back and forth and effectively fighting against one another until they quickly fry their brains (a non-technical term 😀).

Hope that helps a bit.

Bill D
N&W Steam only


On Oct 18, 2020, at 8:00 AM, Larry Moray via groups.io <Larry.Moray@...> wrote:


Hi All:

Long story short; I am totally new to model railroading and DCC.  Although Allen recommends starting off simply, I’m a big learn by doing person and have created a layout that requires a little guidance.

The layout runs around and across an existing HO slot car table and I am planning another level, but the current main level contains multiple reserving loops and I’m hoping someone can give me a hand.

I plan to use Digitrax AR1 modules, but am not sure exactly;y where to gap the track or solder the AR1’s.  
Please take a look at my layout, I’d appreciate any and all insights you might have to offer.


Thanks VERY much for your patience and guidance.

Have a GREAT weekend!

Larry J Moray, DDS, MS
President, The Happy Tooth featuring MyOrthodontist
919.259.2280

Statement of Confidentiality
 
The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are confidential and are intended solely for addressee. The information may also be legally privileged. This transmission is sent in trust, for the sole purpose of delivery to the intended recipient. If you have received this transmission in error, any use, reproduction or dissemination of this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please immediately notify the sender by reply e-mail or phone and delete this message and its attachments, if any.







wirefordcc
 

Hi Larry,

Walk before you run.  You might fall and chip a tooth! :)  Read my section on reversing:  http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm#c4  It will help you understand what you are trying to do.

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC


Larry Moray
 

👍👌😄

Larry J Moray, DDS, MS
President, MyOrthodontist
Serving Our Communities with a Life Time of Smiles
Dr.LarryMoray@MyOrthodontistUS.com

Statement of Confidentiality
 
The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are confidential and are intended solely for addressee. The information may also be legally privileged. This transmission is sent in trust, for the sole purpose of delivery to the intended recipient. If you have received this transmission in error, any use, reproduction or dissemination of this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please immediately notify the sender by reply e-mail or phone and delete this message and its attachments, if any.

On Oct 18, 2020, at 11:31 AM, wirefordcc <bigboy@...> wrote:

Hi Larry,

Walk before you run.  You might fall and chip a tooth! :)  Read my section on reversing:  http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm#c4  It will help you understand what you are trying to do.

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC


Don Vollrath
 

Larry you only have a 1//2 reversing loop. Path A is the only reversing path. Once you are running CCW in section D there is no way to reverse the train without backing up. 

DonV


D B
 

Larry,

Your explanation was most helpful. I agree with Allan (who is the expert here) and Don Vorath’s excellent observation.

A problem with this arrangement is that once your counterclockwise trains return to the lower level via “C” or the clockwise running trains return to the lower level via “A”, they will be facing the wrong direction and would need to be physically reorganized (removed from the track and reordered) unless you don’t mind bringing the train back to the main level of the layout in reverse — hardly prototypical.

You might consider adding another access point to the main layout from the other end of the lower level in order to get the train back onto the main level facing the correct direction.

Bill D
N&W Steam only


Larry Moray
 

I viewed this as one large reversing loop folded over on itself so that the turnout on the lower right is the wye leading into and out of the reversing loop.

I know I’m missing something, maybe wiring by section will allow me to figure out where the shorts occur?

For example, I started out laying the track section by section and running a DC loco around the loop. To start I had the blue track layout set up without the B, C and D legs and I ran the loco both ways up and down and around the A leg.

However, when I added the B and C segments, I had a short, so the plan has been to double gap after the intersections (gaps are the red lines) and wire the AR1 to the ‘mainline' to the right of the wye and to the A leg.

I haven’t done this yet, but it should be easy to test once I get more wiring completed and the DCC system set up.  It’s slow going for me so this conversation is probably premature, but I wanted to be sure I wasn’t going too far down the garden path!  😁

Thanks to you all for your insights!

Have a GREAT week!

Larry J Moray, DDS, MS
President, The Happy Tooth featuring MyOrthodontist
919.259.2280

Statement of Confidentiality
 
The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are confidential and are intended solely for addressee. The information may also be legally privileged. This transmission is sent in trust, for the sole purpose of delivery to the intended recipient. If you have received this transmission in error, any use, reproduction or dissemination of this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please immediately notify the sender by reply e-mail or phone and delete this message and its attachments, if any.





On Oct 18, 2020, at 5:34 PM, D B <1932mgj2@...> wrote:

Larry,

Your explanation was most helpful.  I agree with Allan (who is the expert here) and Don Vorath’s excellent observation.

A problem with this arrangement is that once your counterclockwise trains return to the lower level via “C” or the clockwise running trains return to the lower level via “A”, they will be facing the wrong direction and would need to be physically reorganized (removed from the track and reordered) unless you don’t mind bringing the train back to the main level of the layout in reverse — hardly prototypical.

You might consider adding another access point to the main layout from the other end of the lower level in order to get the train back onto the main level facing the correct direction.

Bill D
N&W Steam only






Jim Betz
 

Allan/all,
  I think it does not serve new users well if we don't mention the "limitations"
of the AR-1 reversers.  The AR-1 was designed far too long ago and is
not "acceptable" (at least to me) as a circuit breaker for today's layouts.
  You only have to experience just one "short that the reverser won't
recover from" to understand this situation.
  It isn't that the AR-1s don't work - it's that they don't work the way you
want them to work in all situations.

  The PSX-AR reversers are -far- better ... especially if you intend to run
any sound equipped locos, multiple locos on one train (such as ABBA),
or lighted passenger trains.
  My personal practices are to never use any DCC circuit breaker 
other that the PSX line.  And to have ALL track protected by a DCC
circuit breaker (no track is powered directly from the booster).  There
are some layouts that don't require it - primarily one person layouts
and/or layouts that never use any of the 3 "gotchas" in the prior
paragraph.  My experience is that most layouts have abandoned
their AR-1s and gone to PSX breakers "sooner or later" and usually
sooner.
  I also set up my circuit breakers (and those for others) by the
way the layout is used rather than by physical areas.  For example
most main line running has fewer derailments/need for a 
circuit breaker/fewer trains running.  So I set up for larger areas
of main line on a single breaker and add breakers for yards and
industrial areas where the likelihood of a short is higher.
                                                                                               - Jim

                                                                                                 - Jim


D B
 

Good advice Jim.

I have a circuit breaker between my power source and both the AR switches and the non-AR segments, with the response time of the AR switches “faster” than that of the circuit breaker so the circuit breaker isn’t triggered unless the AR malfunctions or the short is on a segment without AR. I’m personally using the Tam Valley switches and circuit breaker because of the timing coordination, and would recommend that whatever AR switches are used, the same brand of circuit breaker be used to facilitate that coordination.

Bill D
N&W Steam only


Don Vollrath
 

Larry, in your drawing where sections A and C cross the lead from D at the lower portion of your drawing are those track level crossings ? Have you verified that those crossings are DCC compatible ? If so the only needed AR section is track A from the upper turnout to the crossing of D. Everything else is constant DCC polarity/phase allowing you to run a train up from below and operate CW or CCW on the upper loop via A or C and return it to the lower tracks.

DonV


Larry Moray
 

Hi Don and Gang:

Sorry I didn’t see this post sooner. Yes, the intersections are track level crossings.  Not sure if they are DCC compatible, that was my assumption, but…

Is there an easy way to determine DCC compatibility?  This is Bachmann Nickel Silver Code 100 EZ-Track.  As a newbie I thought this would be less time consuming than laying track?  I’ve uploaded a couple of pictures to help with what I’m thinking relative to the two levels.  Basically I’m considering this one main line with a reserving loop on either end.  I haven’t finalized the lower level yet, but I am not following your suggestions for the upper level relative to the reversing loop section.

Thanks for your help!




Larry J Moray, DDS, MS
President, The Happy Tooth featuring MyOrthodontist
919.259.2280

Statement of Confidentiality
 
The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are confidential and are intended solely for addressee. The information may also be legally privileged. This transmission is sent in trust, for the sole purpose of delivery to the intended recipient. If you have received this transmission in error, any use, reproduction or dissemination of this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please immediately notify the sender by reply e-mail or phone and delete this message and its attachments, if any.





On Oct 20, 2020, at 9:26 AM, Don Vollrath <donevol43@...> wrote:

Larry, in your drawing where sections A and C cross the lead from D at the lower portion of your drawing are those track level crossings ? Have you verified that those crossings are DCC compatible ? If so the only needed AR section is track A from the upper turnout to the crossing of D. Everything else is constant DCC polarity/phase allowing you to run a train up from below and operate CW or CCW on the upper loop via A or C and return it to the lower tracks.

DonV






Don Vollrath
 

Larry the AR controller needs to be fed directly from the booster. No EB1 involved.


DonV


Larry Moray
 

Thanks!!

Larry J Moray, DDS, MS
President, The Happy Tooth featuring MyOrthodontist
919.259.2280

Statement of Confidentiality
 
The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are confidential and are intended solely for addressee. The information may also be legally privileged. This transmission is sent in trust, for the sole purpose of delivery to the intended recipient. If you have received this transmission in error, any use, reproduction or dissemination of this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please immediately notify the sender by reply e-mail or phone and delete this message and its attachments, if any.





On Nov 2, 2020, at 9:10 AM, Don Vollrath <donevol43@...> wrote:

Larry the AR controller needs to be fed directly from the booster. No EB1 involved.


DonV