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Large Gauge Ground Wire in Parallel with Loconet Gound Wires == Groundloop?

nwsteamer
 

In Allan Gartner's Wiring For DCC website, Booster Network Wiring, RECOMMENDATION #4-6: Run a Heavy Ground Wire Between Your Boosters:, the wiring diagram indicates cutting the two ground wires in the booster Loconet wires and adding a large gauge ground connection between the command station and the each of the boosters.  (Yes he was discussing wiring Digitrax equipment which is what my club has.)

The stated reason is to prevent ground loops causing possible erratic behavior. 

On Mark Gurries' website or the only mention of ground loops is in stating not to connect the booster network ground to house earth ground.  Again, erratic behavior may result.

Larry Puckett, the DCCguy.com website also advocates the ground wire but does not mention ground loops.  He did not mention them in his recent Model Railroader article.

Question: does the large gauge booster network ground wire and the parallel Loconet ground wires constitute a ground loop that may cause problems.  Or are they just wires in parallel. 

In the case of my club all the Loconet connections are daisy chained with a lot of intermediate connections.  So the large gauge wire is shorter with no interrupting connections.

Stating you never had a problem with out disconnecting the loconet wires does not answer my question.

George

Mark Gurries
 


On Dec 14, 2017, at 1:00 PM, modelrr@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



In Allan Gartner's Wiring For DCC website, Booster Network Wiring, RECOMMENDATION #4-6: Run a Heavy Ground Wire Between Your Boosters:, the wiring diagram indicates cutting the two ground wires in the booster Loconet wires and adding a large gauge ground connection between the command station and the each of the boosters.  (Yes he was discussing wiring Digitrax equipment which is what my club has.)

The stated reason is to prevent ground loops causing possible erratic behavior.  

On Mark Gurries' website or the only mention of ground loops is in stating not to connect the booster network ground to house earth ground.  Again, erratic behavior may result.

Larry Puckett, the DCCguy.com website also advocates the ground wire but does not mention ground loops.  He did not mention them in his recent Model Railroader article.

Question: does the large gauge booster network ground wire and the parallel Loconet ground wires constitute a ground loop that may cause problems.  Or are they just wires in parallel.  


Your mixing up two separate problems.

1) Ground Loops involving Earth Ground versus DCC system ground (Booster Ground/ Booster common)

2) The problem of Booster Track Current flowing in Loconet Ground wires.


Your question has nothing to do with Earth Ground.  So #1 is not being discussed.   Your question is #2.


Setup: Two Booster Districts meet each other at a rail joint consisting of double insulated rail joiners (gaps).   Booster X powers the track on the left side of the rail joiners and Booster Y powers the track on the right.  (This has nothing to do with existence of DCC circuit breakers).

Situation:  As a given engine moves across the double insulated rail joiners, the engine will become powered by BOTH boosters at the same time until is completes the crossing.

Operating Problem:  Any locomotive with offset wheel pickup will stall unless the booster X and booster Y have a ground connection between them.  Even if you have a locomotive with all wheel pickup, electrical pickup is never perfect and there is the potential for the locomotive to have offset wheel pickup momentarily for multiple of reasons.  In this case the locomotive will not cross cleany unless you have ground connection between the two boosters involved.

Electrical Problem.  At that moment in time where offset wheel pickup is taking place, the only way current can continue to flow is if the locomotive current is carried between the two boosters via the ground wire.  No ground wire, then you have an open circuit situation and the locomotive loses power.

LOCONET SITUATION:   The loconet cable consist of 6 26AWG or 28AWG wires.  Two of these wires are in parallel to form the “ground" connection.  The ground wires carry the following current

1) Loconet return current.   Very Low current.  Loconet communication.
2) Railsync return current.  Low current.  Booster Signal communication and low current power source for plug in throttles and some loconet devices.
3) Booster ground current.   Momentary Very HIGH Current.  The current flowing depends on the size and efficiency of the locomotive motors for a given scale.

These small gauge wires are NOT designed to support high current flow.   The voltage drop in the wire will be proportional to the length of the wire and the magnitude of the current flowing in it.   

LOCONET PROBLEM:  When you have a locomotive with an offset wheel pickup problem, the locomotive current will flow in the LOCONET Ground wires.  These Motor currents are much much higher the Loconet or railsynce current in the same ground wires.  The higher the current draw of the motor, the higher the voltage drop that will appear across the ground wire between the two boosters.  The momentarily very high voltage drop can prevent reliable communication of Loconet or Railsynce or both at the same time.  The problem can go away one the locomotive completes the power district crossing.

SOLUTION:  Since we cannot change the gauge of the wire in the Loconet cable to support the motor currents, then a parallel wire of a significantly higher gauge must be run between the boosters ground terminals.   This effectively reduces the voltage drop in the loconet ground.  Furthermore since it runs directly from booster to booster with lower resistance than found in the Loconet cable, the motor current will freely choose the lower resistance path and flow in the large wire between the two boosters removing most of that current flow from Loconet wires.  In other words, you greatly relieved the Loconet ground of the responsibility of supporting locomotive current flow.  Loconet and Railsynce communication will be more reliable now that it is being unmolested by the independent and very noisy locomotive current.


Is it a ground loop?  Technically yes.   But in this specific case the design of the loconet bus brings with it an electrical design flaw straight from the factory.   The permitting of Locomotive current to flow on the Loconet ground.    With small layouts and/or small scale layouts in practice this is not much of a problem.  The loconet cables are short and/or the locomotive currents are low.   But it become a big problem on very large layouts and/or large scale layouts where the loconet cables are long and the locomotive current can be very high.   Adding the large gauge parallel ground wire permitting a ground loop to be establish is the LESSER of the two evils.   


In the case of my club all the Loconet connections are daisy chained with a lot of intermediate connections.  So the large gauge wire is shorter with no interrupting connections.

Great.  That is the best you can do.


Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



nwsteamer
 

Mark,

The way I read this statement the large gauge wire in parallel to the Loconet 'ground'  wires does constitute a 'loop' and could cause a reliability problem.

Thus, the recommendation in Allan Gartner's website to cut the Loconet 'grounds' at the boosters is valid.  Do you agree?

On 12/24/2017 05:03 AM, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] wrote:
Adding the large gauge parallel ground wire permitting a ground loop to be establish is the LESSER of the two evils.

Chris Elliott
 

I’ve found that the new digitrax boosters won’t come on line if the ground wires in the loconet cables are cut.
Chris Elliott

Sent from planet earth

On 25 Dec 2017, at 04:50, nwsteamer modelrr@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 

Mark,

The way I read this statement the large gauge wire in parallel to the
Loconet 'ground'  wires does constitute a 'loop' and could cause a
reliability problem.

Thus, the recommendation in Allan Gartner's website to cut the Loconet
'grounds' at the boosters is valid.  Do you agree?

On 12/24/2017 05:03 AM, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC]
wrote:
> Adding the large gauge parallel ground wire permitting a ground loop
> to be establish is the LESSER of the two evils.

Mark Gurries
 

A true ground loop requires the following.

1) Two parallel current paths.

2) The mixing of two independent currents that should not be mixed together.

Eliminate one or the other eliminates the problem.

The current we do not want to be shared on the Loconet ground is the locomotive current. Fortunately we know that the undesirable locomotive currents originate and end only at the booster locations.

So the solution is to find a way for the locomotive current to flow down the booster ground wire and not the loconet ground.

Additional interesting facts are

1) Booster do not use the Loconet signals. They only monitor the RailSync signals on the Loconet cable during normal operation.

2) Railsync is a lot less sensitive to the problems related to ground current

We can use these two pieces of information to help identify the solution.

To eliminate the "ground loop" would require Splitting the loconet cable right at the command station location into two separate Loconet busses.

a) A Loconet bus for all devices other than the boosters. Call this Throttle Loconet.
b) A Loconet bus for just the boosters. Call this Booster Loconet

With the Throttle Loconet bus and the Booster Loconet bus only tied to each other at a SINGLE point where the command station is located, the two Loconet bus grounds are connected but they will not have the same paths and therefor will not have the same currents on their respective ground wires.

With the Throttle Loconet, we know we only have Railsync signal current and Loconet signal current on the ground.
With the Booster Loconet, we know we only have Railsync signal current and Locomotive current on the ground.

Now you run the Booster Loconet ONLY between Boosters. Do not connect it to any other type of Loconet Device. It only connect to the Command Station at the command station location with a RJ splitter. Now there is no reason for locomotive current to flow down the Throttle Loconet Bus because there is no booster connected to it. It is an Open Circuit as far a Locomotive current goes.

Just doing that one step alone breaks the locomotive current off the Throttle Loconet bus for all the devices that need the reliable loconet signal communication. Technically we now no longer have a ground loop since we are not mixing independent currents much anymore. The only remaining problem is the fact that on the Booster Loconet we can still have momentarily high DC current flowing down the small gauge wires. We solve that by running our large wire gauge wire between the booster grounds. Yes the wires are in parallel, but they are NOW carrying the same current at the same time between the exact same locations. There is no ground loop.

One could cut the ground wires out of the Booster Loconet cable to force 100% of the locomotive ground current to run on the large wire but with reasons to do so are greatly diminished. The locomotive current will naturally choose the large gauge wire since it the path of least resistance.




On Dec 24, 2017, at 9:50 AM, nwsteamer modelrr@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

Mark,

The way I read this statement the large gauge wire in parallel to the
Loconet 'ground' wires does constitute a 'loop' and could cause a
reliability problem.

Thus, the recommendation in Allan Gartner's website to cut the Loconet
'grounds' at the boosters is valid. Do you agree?


On 12/24/2017 05:03 AM, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC]
wrote:
Adding the large gauge parallel ground wire permitting a ground loop
to be establish is the LESSER of the two evils.


------------------------------------
Posted by: nwsteamer <modelrr@...>
------------------------------------

http://www.WiringForDCC.com
------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links


Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com

Mark Gurries
 

Did you have the ground wire installed?


On Dec 24, 2017, at 8:28 PM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



I’ve found that the new digitrax boosters won’t come on line if the ground wires in the loconet cables are cut.
Chris Elliott

Sent from planet earth

On 25 Dec 2017, at 04:50, nwsteamer modelrr@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

Mark,

The way I read this statement the large gauge wire in parallel to the 
Loconet 'ground'  wires does constitute a 'loop' and could cause a 
reliability problem.

Thus, the recommendation in Allan Gartner's website to cut the Loconet 
'grounds' at the boosters is valid.  Do you agree?

On 12/24/2017 05:03 AM, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] 
wrote:
> Adding the large gauge parallel ground wire permitting a ground loop 
> to be establish is the LESSER of the two evils. 




Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Chris Elliott
 

Yes, I had installed a heavy gauge “home ground” between the boosters and command station. 

Sent from planet earth

On 27 Dec 2017, at 11:15, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 

Did you have the ground wire installed?


On Dec 24, 2017, at 8:28 PM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



I’ve found that the new digitrax boosters won’t come on line if the ground wires in the loconet cables are cut.
Chris Elliott

Sent from planet earth

On 25 Dec 2017, at 04:50, nwsteamer modelrr@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

Mark,

The way I read this statement the large gauge wire in parallel to the 
Loconet 'ground'  wires does constitute a 'loop' and could cause a 
reliability problem.

Thus, the recommendation in Allan Gartner's website to cut the Loconet 
'grounds' at the boosters is valid.  Do you agree?

On 12/24/2017 05:03 AM, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] 
wrote:
> Adding the large gauge parallel ground wire permitting a ground loop 
> to be establish is the LESSER of the two evils. 




Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Mark Gurries
 

How did you make the ground connection?  Details please.

On Dec 26, 2017, at 6:51 PM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



Yes, I had installed a heavy gauge “home ground” between the boosters and command station. 

Sent from planet earth

On 27 Dec 2017, at 11:15, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:


Did you have the ground wire installed?


On Dec 24, 2017, at 8:28 PM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



I’ve found that the new digitrax boosters won’t come on line if the ground wires in the loconet cables are cut.
Chris Elliott

Sent from planet earth

On 25 Dec 2017, at 04:50, nwsteamer modelrr@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

Mark,

The way I read this statement the large gauge wire in parallel to the 
Loconet 'ground'  wires does constitute a 'loop' and could cause a 
reliability problem.

Thus, the recommendation in Allan Gartner's website to cut the Loconet 
'grounds' at the boosters is valid.  Do you agree?

On 12/24/2017 05:03 AM, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] 
wrote:
> Adding the large gauge parallel ground wire permitting a ground loop 
> to be establish is the LESSER of the two evils. 




Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com







Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Chris Elliott
 

I have a DCS100 as the command station. In loconet port A I have a UR92 connected and that’s it. In loconet port B I have the loconet cable that runs to the other boosters. There are no other loconet devices connected anywhere. On the DCS100 the “home ground” is connected to the little digitrax installed pigtail. This pigtail is connected to a lug which is held against the rear heat sink.. 

The “home ground” wire runs for approx 14 metres before reaching the first and second boosters, it is a 2.5 millimetre cable (approx awg 13) It does not connect to anything else.
The “home ground” wire connects to the ground terminal on the front of a DB210 and then daisy chains off to the second DB210 and connects the same way.

I had previously wired a friends layout which has a DCS100 and six DB150’s configured as boosters. I had cut the loconet cables as described in Alan Gartners “booster wiring” and it works without issue.

So when I installed the booster loconet cable on my layout, I cut the wires as described on Alan’s website and as I’d done previously. But the DB210’s would not wake up. The LEDs on the front on the DB210 were not correct and trains would not run on the DB210s power districts. The both rails at boundary between power districts are gaped and insulated. Reterminating the booster loconet cable so that all 6 wires are connected corrected the issue.


Sent from planet earth

On 30 Dec 2017, at 11:53, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 

How did you make the ground connection?  Details please.

On Dec 26, 2017, at 6:51 PM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



Yes, I had installed a heavy gauge “home ground” between the boosters and command station. 

Sent from planet earth

On 27 Dec 2017, at 11:15, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:


Did you have the ground wire installed?


On Dec 24, 2017, at 8:28 PM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



I’ve found that the new digitrax boosters won’t come on line if the ground wires in the loconet cables are cut.
Chris Elliott

Sent from planet earth

On 25 Dec 2017, at 04:50, nwsteamer modelrr@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

Mark,

The way I read this statement the large gauge wire in parallel to the 
Loconet 'ground'  wires does constitute a 'loop' and could cause a 
reliability problem.

Thus, the recommendation in Allan Gartner's website to cut the Loconet 
'grounds' at the boosters is valid.  Do you agree?

On 12/24/2017 05:03 AM, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] 
wrote:
> Adding the large gauge parallel ground wire permitting a ground loop 
> to be establish is the LESSER of the two evils. 




Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com







Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Mark Gurries
 



Ok,

I have no first hand experience with the new systems.  I am not sure what has changed with the new systems.   The documentation of the new system promotes the ground wire as a AC Earth ground connection which makes no sense since it assumes that they have a safety liability situation which they do not.  They are not making the AC power supply which does have a liability situation and cannot be legally be sold unless it addresses that safety issue per UL, ETL or equivalent safety agency requirement.

Anyway, if it is intended as a Earth Ground connection, then it must be connected to the metal chassis.

If you have an ohm better, check if there is continuity between the ground terminal and the metal case.  There should be if supposed to fulfill its safety requirement.

The next step is to measure electrical continuity between the ground terminal and the loconet ground pins 3 and 4.   I know there is on the older Digitrax systems.  I measured it and you know it works because your suing the large ground wire with the older systems.   If the new system BREAKS that continuity, that would explain why the large ground wire does not work and you must relay on the Digitrax Loconet ground for the booster common function.






On Dec 30, 2017, at 3:01 AM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



I have a DCS100 as the command station. In loconet port A I have a UR92 connected and that’s it. In loconet port B I have the loconet cable that runs to the other boosters. There are no other loconet devices connected anywhere. On the DCS100 the “home ground” is connected to the little digitrax installed pigtail. This pigtail is connected to a lug which is held against the rear heat sink.. 

The “home ground” wire runs for approx 14 metres before reaching the first and second boosters, it is a 2.5 millimetre cable (approx awg 13) It does not connect to anything else.
The “home ground” wire connects to the ground terminal on the front of a DB210 and then daisy chains off to the second DB210 and connects the same way.

I had previously wired a friends layout which has a DCS100 and six DB150’s configured as boosters. I had cut the loconet cables as described in Alan Gartners “booster wiring” and it works without issue.

So when I installed the booster loconet cable on my layout, I cut the wires as described on Alan’s website and as I’d done previously. But the DB210’s would not wake up. The LEDs on the front on the DB210 were not correct and trains would not run on the DB210s power districts. The both rails at boundary between power districts are gaped and insulated. Reterminating the booster loconet cable so that all 6 wires are connected corrected the issue.


Sent from planet earth

On 30 Dec 2017, at 11:53, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:


How did you make the ground connection?  Details please.

On Dec 26, 2017, at 6:51 PM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



Yes, I had installed a heavy gauge “home ground” between the boosters and command station. 

Sent from planet earth

On 27 Dec 2017, at 11:15, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:


Did you have the ground wire installed?


On Dec 24, 2017, at 8:28 PM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



I’ve found that the new digitrax boosters won’t come on line if the ground wires in the loconet cables are cut.
Chris Elliott

Sent from planet earth

On 25 Dec 2017, at 04:50, nwsteamer modelrr@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

Mark,

The way I read this statement the large gauge wire in parallel to the 
Loconet 'ground'  wires does constitute a 'loop' and could cause a 
reliability problem.

Thus, the recommendation in Allan Gartner's website to cut the Loconet 
'grounds' at the boosters is valid.  Do you agree?

On 12/24/2017 05:03 AM, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] 
wrote:
> Adding the large gauge parallel ground wire permitting a ground loop 
> to be establish is the LESSER of the two evils. 




Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com







Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com







Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Chris Elliott
 

Hi Mark, sorry for the slow response.

So as requested I've taken a few measurements and I'm a little surprised by the results, but it certainly explains a few things. My results are in the redish colour.

You asked
If you have an ohm better, check if there is continuity between the ground terminal and the metal case.
My result, I removed a case screw and stuck the probe into the thread due to all the metal having a black "coating". The measured resistance between the thread and the ground pin on the front connector was 6.8 ohms.

The next step is to measure electrical continuity between the ground terminal and the loconet ground pins 3 and 4.
My result, to my surprise 74Kohms. Yes 74,000 ohms! This was measured between the ground pin on the front connector and the middle conductors of a dummy loconet cable.

Measurements were taken with a Fluke 1587 and the booster was totally disconnected from the layout and power supply.

Regards
Chris Elliott





On Monday, 8 January 2018, 10:46, "Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC]" wrote:


 


Ok,

I have no first hand experience with the new systems.  I am not sure what has changed with the new systems.   The documentation of the new system promotes the ground wire as a AC Earth ground connection which makes no sense since it assumes that they have a safety liability situation which they do not.  They are not making the AC power supply which does have a liability situation and cannot be legally be sold unless it addresses that safety issue per UL, ETL or equivalent safety agency requirement.

Anyway, if it is intended as a Earth Ground connection, then it must be connected to the metal chassis.

If you have an ohm better, check if there is continuity between the ground terminal and the metal case.  There should be if supposed to fulfill its safety requirement.

The next step is to measure electrical continuity between the ground terminal and the loconet ground pins 3 and 4.   I know there is on the older Digitrax systems.  I measured it and you know it works because your suing the large ground wire with the older systems.   If the new system BREAKS that continuity, that would explain why the large ground wire does not work and you must relay on the Digitrax Loconet ground for the booster common function.






On Dec 30, 2017, at 3:01 AM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



I have a DCS100 as the command station. In loconet port A I have a UR92 connected and that’s it. In loconet port B I have the loconet cable that runs to the other boosters. There are no other loconet devices connected anywhere. On the DCS100 the “home ground” is connected to the little digitrax installed pigtail. This pigtail is connected to a lug which is held against the rear heat sink.. 

The “home ground” wire runs for approx 14 metres before reaching the first and second boosters, it is a 2.5 millimetre cable (approx awg 13) It does not connect to anything else.
The “home ground” wire connects to the ground terminal on the front of a DB210 and then daisy chains off to the second DB210 and connects the same way.

I had previously wired a friends layout which has a DCS100 and six DB150’s configured as boosters. I had cut the loconet cables as described in Alan Gartners “booster wiring” and it works without issue.

So when I installed the booster loconet cable on my layout, I cut the wires as described on Alan’s website and as I’d done previously. But the DB210’s would not wake up. The LEDs on the front on the DB210 were not correct and trains would not run on the DB210s power districts. The both rails at boundary between power districts are gaped and insulated. Reterminating the booster loconet cable so that all 6 wires are connected corrected the issue.


Sent from planet earth

On 30 Dec 2017, at 11:53, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:


How did you make the ground connection?  Details please.

On Dec 26, 2017, at 6:51 PM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



Yes, I had installed a heavy gauge “home ground” between the boosters and command station. 

Sent from planet earth

On 27 Dec 2017, at 11:15, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:


Did you have the ground wire installed?


On Dec 24, 2017, at 8:28 PM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



I’ve found that the new digitrax boosters won’t come on line if the ground wires in the loconet cables are cut.
Chris Elliott

Sent from planet earth

On 25 Dec 2017, at 04:50, nwsteamer modelrr@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

Mark,

The way I read this statement the large gauge wire in parallel to the 
Loconet 'ground'  wires does constitute a 'loop' and could cause a 
reliability problem..

Thus, the recommendation in Allan Gartner's website to cut the Loconet 
'grounds' at the boosters is valid.  Do you agree?

On 12/24/2017 05:03 AM, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] 
wrote:
> Adding the large gauge parallel ground wire permitting a ground loop 
> to be establish is the LESSER of the two evils. 




Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com







Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com







Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com





Mark Gurries
 

Well that explains why the booster ground wire does not work.

With these new products, what I do not know is if this is a manufacturing defect, an intentional design change by Digitrax or a accidental design omission.

One would need to examine more of these new unit to eliminate the manufacturing defect variable.

I would contact Digitrax and ask them about this.




On Jan 31, 2018, at 7:42 AM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



Hi Mark, sorry for the slow response.

So as requested I've taken a few measurements and I'm a little surprised by the results, but it certainly explains a few things. My results are in the redish colour.

You asked
If you have an ohm better, check if there is continuity between the ground terminal and the metal case.
My result, I removed a case screw and stuck the probe into the thread due to all the metal having a black "coating". The measured resistance between the thread and the ground pin on the front connector was 6.8 ohms.

The next step is to measure electrical continuity between the ground terminal and the loconet ground pins 3 and 4. 
My result, to my surprise 74Kohms. Yes 74,000 ohms! This was measured between the ground pin on the front connector and the middle conductors of a dummy loconet cable.

Measurements were taken with a Fluke 1587 and the booster was totally disconnected from the layout and power supply.

Regards
Chris Elliott





On Monday, 8 January 2018, 10:46, "Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC]" <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:




Ok,

I have no first hand experience with the new systems.  I am not sure what has changed with the new systems.   The documentation of the new system promotes the ground wire as a AC Earth ground connection which makes no sense since it assumes that they have a safety liability situation which they do not.  They are not making the AC power supply which does have a liability situation and cannot be legally be sold unless it addresses that safety issue per UL, ETL or equivalent safety agency requirement.

Anyway, if it is intended as a Earth Ground connection, then it must be connected to the metal chassis.

If you have an ohm better, check if there is continuity between the ground terminal and the metal case.  There should be if supposed to fulfill its safety requirement.

The next step is to measure electrical continuity between the ground terminal and the loconet ground pins 3 and 4.   I know there is on the older Digitrax systems.  I measured it and you know it works because your suing the large ground wire with the older systems.   If the new system BREAKS that continuity, that would explain why the large ground wire does not work and you must relay on the Digitrax Loconet ground for the booster common function.






On Dec 30, 2017, at 3:01 AM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



I have a DCS100 as the command station. In loconet port A I have a UR92 connected and that’s it. In loconet port B I have the loconet cable that runs to the other boosters. There are no other loconet devices connected anywhere. On the DCS100 the “home ground” is connected to the little digitrax installed pigtail. This pigtail is connected to a lug which is held against the rear heat sink.. 

The “home ground” wire runs for approx 14 metres before reaching the first and second boosters, it is a 2.5 millimetre cable (approx awg 13) It does not connect to anything else.
The “home ground” wire connects to the ground terminal on the front of a DB210 and then daisy chains off to the second DB210 and connects the same way.

I had previously wired a friends layout which has a DCS100 and six DB150’s configured as boosters. I had cut the loconet cables as described in Alan Gartners “booster wiring” and it works without issue.

So when I installed the booster loconet cable on my layout, I cut the wires as described on Alan’s website and as I’d done previously. But the DB210’s would not wake up. The LEDs on the front on the DB210 were not correct and trains would not run on the DB210s power districts. The both rails at boundary between power districts are gaped and insulated. Reterminating the booster loconet cable so that all 6 wires are connected corrected the issue.


Sent from planet earth

On 30 Dec 2017, at 11:53, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:


How did you make the ground connection?  Details please.

On Dec 26, 2017, at 6:51 PM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



Yes, I had installed a heavy gauge “home ground” between the boosters and command station. 

Sent from planet earth

On 27 Dec 2017, at 11:15, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:


Did you have the ground wire installed?


On Dec 24, 2017, at 8:28 PM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



I’ve found that the new digitrax boosters won’t come on line if the ground wires in the loconet cables are cut.
Chris Elliott

Sent from planet earth

On 25 Dec 2017, at 04:50, nwsteamer modelrr@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

Mark,

The way I read this statement the large gauge wire in parallel to the 
Loconet 'ground'  wires does constitute a 'loop' and could cause a 
reliability problem..

Thus, the recommendation in Allan Gartner's website to cut the Loconet 
'grounds' at the boosters is valid.  Do you agree?

On 12/24/2017 05:03 AM, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] 
wrote:
> Adding the large gauge parallel ground wire permitting a ground loop 
> to be establish is the LESSER of the two evils. 




Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com







Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com







Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com








Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Mark Gurries
 

Chris,

I have one more question. Did you order the “opto" version of the DB210.  Opto and optical isolated version of the DB210?


On Feb 2, 2018, at 10:04 AM, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



Well that explains why the booster ground wire does not work.

With these new products, what I do not know is if this is a manufacturing defect, an intentional design change by Digitrax or a accidental design omission.

One would need to examine more of these new unit to eliminate the manufacturing defect variable.

I would contact Digitrax and ask them about this.




On Jan 31, 2018, at 7:42 AM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



Hi Mark, sorry for the slow response.

So as requested I've taken a few measurements and I'm a little surprised by the results, but it certainly explains a few things. My results are in the redish colour.

You asked
If you have an ohm better, check if there is continuity between the ground terminal and the metal case.
My result, I removed a case screw and stuck the probe into the thread due to all the metal having a black "coating". The measured resistance between the thread and the ground pin on the front connector was 6.8 ohms.

The next step is to measure electrical continuity between the ground terminal and the loconet ground pins 3 and 4. 
My result, to my surprise 74Kohms. Yes 74,000 ohms! This was measured between the ground pin on the front connector and the middle conductors of a dummy loconet cable.

Measurements were taken with a Fluke 1587 and the booster was totally disconnected from the layout and power supply.

Regards
Chris Elliott





On Monday, 8 January 2018, 10:46, "Mark Gurries gurriesm@comcast..net [WiringForDCC]" <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:




Ok,

I have no first hand experience with the new systems.  I am not sure what has changed with the new systems.   The documentation of the new system promotes the ground wire as a AC Earth ground connection which makes no sense since it assumes that they have a safety liability situation which they do not.  They are not making the AC power supply which does have a liability situation and cannot be legally be sold unless it addresses that safety issue per UL, ETL or equivalent safety agency requirement.

Anyway, if it is intended as a Earth Ground connection, then it must be connected to the metal chassis.

If you have an ohm better, check if there is continuity between the ground terminal and the metal case.  There should be if supposed to fulfill its safety requirement.

The next step is to measure electrical continuity between the ground terminal and the loconet ground pins 3 and 4.   I know there is on the older Digitrax systems.  I measured it and you know it works because your suing the large ground wire with the older systems..   If the new system BREAKS that continuity, that would explain why the large ground wire does not work and you must relay on the Digitrax Loconet ground for the booster common function.






On Dec 30, 2017, at 3:01 AM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



I have a DCS100 as the command station. In loconet port A I have a UR92 connected and that’s it. In loconet port B I have the loconet cable that runs to the other boosters. There are no other loconet devices connected anywhere. On the DCS100 the “home ground” is connected to the little digitrax installed pigtail. This pigtail is connected to a lug which is held against the rear heat sink.. 

The “home ground” wire runs for approx 14 metres before reaching the first and second boosters, it is a 2.5 millimetre cable (approx awg 13) It does not connect to anything else.
The “home ground” wire connects to the ground terminal on the front of a DB210 and then daisy chains off to the second DB210 and connects the same way.

I had previously wired a friends layout which has a DCS100 and six DB150’s configured as boosters. I had cut the loconet cables as described in Alan Gartners “booster wiring” and it works without issue.

So when I installed the booster loconet cable on my layout, I cut the wires as described on Alan’s website and as I’d done previously. But the DB210’s would not wake up. The LEDs on the front on the DB210 were not correct and trains would not run on the DB210s power districts. The both rails at boundary between power districts are gaped and insulated. Reterminating the booster loconet cable so that all 6 wires are connected corrected the issue.


Sent from planet earth

On 30 Dec 2017, at 11:53, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:


How did you make the ground connection?  Details please.

On Dec 26, 2017, at 6:51 PM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



Yes, I had installed a heavy gauge “home ground” between the boosters and command station. 

Sent from planet earth

On 27 Dec 2017, at 11:15, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:


Did you have the ground wire installed?


On Dec 24, 2017, at 8:28 PM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



I’ve found that the new digitrax boosters won’t come on line if the ground wires in the loconet cables are cut.
Chris Elliott

Sent from planet earth

On 25 Dec 2017, at 04:50, nwsteamer modelrr@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

Mark,

The way I read this statement the large gauge wire in parallel to the 
Loconet 'ground'  wires does constitute a 'loop' and could cause a 
reliability problem..

Thus, the recommendation in Allan Gartner's website to cut the Loconet 
'grounds' at the boosters is valid.  Do you agree?

On 12/24/2017 05:03 AM, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] 
wrote:
> Adding the large gauge parallel ground wire permitting a ground loop 
> to be establish is the LESSER of the two evils. 




Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com







Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www..markgurries.com







Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com








Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com






Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Chris Elliott
 

Hi Mark, the boosters have the model number DB210 on the front of them. They do not have any indication on them that they are opto isolated and I certainly did not order or pay for that option as it would be of no benefit to my operation.
Good question though!
Regards
Chris Elliott

Sent from planet earth

On 21 Feb 2018, at 05:46, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 

Chris,

I have one more question. Did you order the “opto" version of the DB210.  Opto and optical isolated version of the DB210?


On Feb 2, 2018, at 10:04 AM, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



Well that explains why the booster ground wire does not work.

With these new products, what I do not know is if this is a manufacturing defect, an intentional design change by Digitrax or a accidental design omission..

One would need to examine more of these new unit to eliminate the manufacturing defect variable.

I would contact Digitrax and ask them about this.




On Jan 31, 2018, at 7:42 AM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



Hi Mark, sorry for the slow response.

So as requested I've taken a few measurements and I'm a little surprised by the results, but it certainly explains a few things. My results are in the redish colour.

You asked
If you have an ohm better, check if there is continuity between the ground terminal and the metal case.
My result, I removed a case screw and stuck the probe into the thread due to all the metal having a black "coating". The measured resistance between the thread and the ground pin on the front connector was 6.8 ohms.

The next step is to measure electrical continuity between the ground terminal and the loconet ground pins 3 and 4. 
My result, to my surprise 74Kohms. Yes 74,000 ohms! This was measured between the ground pin on the front connector and the middle conductors of a dummy loconet cable.

Measurements were taken with a Fluke 1587 and the booster was totally disconnected from the layout and power supply.

Regards
Chris Elliott





On Monday, 8 January 2018, 10:46, "Mark Gurries gurriesm@comcast..net [WiringForDCC]" <WiringForDCC@yahoogroups..com> wrote:




Ok,

I have no first hand experience with the new systems.  I am not sure what has changed with the new systems.   The documentation of the new system promotes the ground wire as a AC Earth ground connection which makes no sense since it assumes that they have a safety liability situation which they do not.  They are not making the AC power supply which does have a liability situation and cannot be legally be sold unless it addresses that safety issue per UL, ETL or equivalent safety agency requirement.

Anyway, if it is intended as a Earth Ground connection, then it must be connected to the metal chassis.

If you have an ohm better, check if there is continuity between the ground terminal and the metal case.  There should be if supposed to fulfill its safety requirement.

The next step is to measure electrical continuity between the ground terminal and the loconet ground pins 3 and 4.   I know there is on the older Digitrax systems.  I measured it and you know it works because your suing the large ground wire with the older systems..   If the new system BREAKS that continuity, that would explain why the large ground wire does not work and you must relay on the Digitrax Loconet ground for the booster common function.






On Dec 30, 2017, at 3:01 AM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



I have a DCS100 as the command station. In loconet port A I have a UR92 connected and that’s it. In loconet port B I have the loconet cable that runs to the other boosters. There are no other loconet devices connected anywhere. On the DCS100 the “home ground” is connected to the little digitrax installed pigtail. This pigtail is connected to a lug which is held against the rear heat sink.. 

The “home ground” wire runs for approx 14 metres before reaching the first and second boosters, it is a 2.5 millimetre cable (approx awg 13) It does not connect to anything else.
The “home ground” wire connects to the ground terminal on the front of a DB210 and then daisy chains off to the second DB210 and connects the same way.

I had previously wired a friends layout which has a DCS100 and six DB150’s configured as boosters. I had cut the loconet cables as described in Alan Gartners “booster wiring” and it works without issue.

So when I installed the booster loconet cable on my layout, I cut the wires as described on Alan’s website and as I’d done previously. But the DB210’s would not wake up. The LEDs on the front on the DB210 were not correct and trains would not run on the DB210s power districts. The both rails at boundary between power districts are gaped and insulated. Reterminating the booster loconet cable so that all 6 wires are connected corrected the issue.


Sent from planet earth

On 30 Dec 2017, at 11:53, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:


How did you make the ground connection?  Details please.

On Dec 26, 2017, at 6:51 PM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



Yes, I had installed a heavy gauge “home ground” between the boosters and command station. 

Sent from planet earth

On 27 Dec 2017, at 11:15, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:


Did you have the ground wire installed?


On Dec 24, 2017, at 8:28 PM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



I’ve found that the new digitrax boosters won’t come on line if the ground wires in the loconet cables are cut.
Chris Elliott

Sent from planet earth

On 25 Dec 2017, at 04:50, nwsteamer modelrr@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

Mark,

The way I read this statement the large gauge wire in parallel to the 
Loconet 'ground'  wires does constitute a 'loop' and could cause a 
reliability problem...

Thus, the recommendation in Allan Gartner's website to cut the Loconet 
'grounds' at the boosters is valid.  Do you agree?

On 12/24/2017 05:03 AM, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] 
wrote:
> Adding the large gauge parallel ground wire permitting a ground loop 
> to be establish is the LESSER of the two evils. 




Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com







Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www..markgurries.com







Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com








Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com






Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Mark Gurries
 


Thank you.


On Feb 24, 2018, at 9:09 AM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



Hi Mark, the boosters have the model number DB210 on the front of them. They do not have any indication on them that they are opto isolated and I certainly did not order or pay for that option as it would be of no benefit to my operation.
Good question though!
Regards
Chris Elliott

Sent from planet earth

On 21 Feb 2018, at 05:46, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:


Chris,

I have one more question. Did you order the “opto" version of the DB210.  Opto and optical isolated version of the DB210?


On Feb 2, 2018, at 10:04 AM, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



Well that explains why the booster ground wire does not work.

With these new products, what I do not know is if this is a manufacturing defect, an intentional design change by Digitrax or a accidental design omission..

One would need to examine more of these new unit to eliminate the manufacturing defect variable.

I would contact Digitrax and ask them about this.




On Jan 31, 2018, at 7:42 AM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



Hi Mark, sorry for the slow response.

So as requested I've taken a few measurements and I'm a little surprised by the results, but it certainly explains a few things. My results are in the redish colour.

You asked
If you have an ohm better, check if there is continuity between the ground terminal and the metal case.
My result, I removed a case screw and stuck the probe into the thread due to all the metal having a black "coating". The measured resistance between the thread and the ground pin on the front connector was 6..8 ohms.

The next step is to measure electrical continuity between the ground terminal and the loconet ground pins 3 and 4. 
My result, to my surprise 74Kohms. Yes 74,000 ohms! This was measured between the ground pin on the front connector and the middle conductors of a dummy loconet cable.

Measurements were taken with a Fluke 1587 and the booster was totally disconnected from the layout and power supply.

Regards
Chris Elliott





On Monday, 8 January 2018, 10:46, "Mark Gurries gurriesm@comcast..net [WiringForDCC]" <WiringForDCC@yahoogroups..com> wrote:




Ok,

I have no first hand experience with the new systems.  I am not sure what has changed with the new systems.   The documentation of the new system promotes the ground wire as a AC Earth ground connection which makes no sense since it assumes that they have a safety liability situation which they do not.  They are not making the AC power supply which does have a liability situation and cannot be legally be sold unless it addresses that safety issue per UL, ETL or equivalent safety agency requirement.

Anyway, if it is intended as a Earth Ground connection, then it must be connected to the metal chassis.

If you have an ohm better, check if there is continuity between the ground terminal and the metal case.  There should be if supposed to fulfill its safety requirement.

The next step is to measure electrical continuity between the ground terminal and the loconet ground pins 3 and 4.   I know there is on the older Digitrax systems.  I measured it and you know it works because your suing the large ground wire with the older systems..   If the new system BREAKS that continuity, that would explain why the large ground wire does not work and you must relay on the Digitrax Loconet ground for the booster common function.






On Dec 30, 2017, at 3:01 AM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



I have a DCS100 as the command station. In loconet port A I have a UR92 connected and that’s it. In loconet port B I have the loconet cable that runs to the other boosters. There are no other loconet devices connected anywhere. On the DCS100 the “home ground” is connected to the little digitrax installed pigtail. This pigtail is connected to a lug which is held against the rear heat sink.. 

The “home ground” wire runs for approx 14 metres before reaching the first and second boosters, it is a 2.5 millimetre cable (approx awg 13) It does not connect to anything else.
The “home ground” wire connects to the ground terminal on the front of a DB210 and then daisy chains off to the second DB210 and connects the same way.

I had previously wired a friends layout which has a DCS100 and six DB150’s configured as boosters. I had cut the loconet cables as described in Alan Gartners “booster wiring” and it works without issue.

So when I installed the booster loconet cable on my layout, I cut the wires as described on Alan’s website and as I’d done previously. But the DB210’s would not wake up. The LEDs on the front on the DB210 were not correct and trains would not run on the DB210s power districts. The both rails at boundary between power districts are gaped and insulated. Reterminating the booster loconet cable so that all 6 wires are connected corrected the issue.


Sent from planet earth

On 30 Dec 2017, at 11:53, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:


How did you make the ground connection?  Details please.

On Dec 26, 2017, at 6:51 PM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



Yes, I had installed a heavy gauge “home ground” between the boosters and command station. 

Sent from planet earth

On 27 Dec 2017, at 11:15, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:


Did you have the ground wire installed?


On Dec 24, 2017, at 8:28 PM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



I’ve found that the new digitrax boosters won’t come on line if the ground wires in the loconet cables are cut.
Chris Elliott

Sent from planet earth

On 25 Dec 2017, at 04:50, nwsteamer modelrr@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

Mark,

The way I read this statement the large gauge wire in parallel to the 
Loconet 'ground'  wires does constitute a 'loop' and could cause a 
reliability problem...

Thus, the recommendation in Allan Gartner's website to cut the Loconet 
'grounds' at the boosters is valid.  Do you agree?

On 12/24/2017 05:03 AM, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] 
wrote:
> Adding the large gauge parallel ground wire permitting a ground loop 
> to be establish is the LESSER of the two evils. 




Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com







Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www..markgurries.com







Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com








Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com






Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com







Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com