Topics

Forgive my ignorance! Am I creating several reverse loops on my proposed layout?

Tom G.
 

Hi All,

I'm new to DCC (never used before and haven't yet) and new to N Scale using Kato Unitrack and #6 turnouts. I plan to use Digikeijs DR5000 (https://www.digikeijs.com/en/dr5000-adj-dcc-multi-bus-central.html) and In my yard section, my track does lead around in some way and lead back to itself depending on the route taken. My thought was isolating my turnouts throughout the layout would be enough to prevent shorts between track lines. Am I incorrect in my thoughts and I would need to add auto reversers to my layout? Please let me know your thoughts. 

Layout:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5mzzp46mw5up2dq/TomG_W4DCCQA_Layout.jpg?dl=0


Thanks in advance,
Tom G.

Tom O Hara
 

Hi again,

I'm sorry, but the dash-i-ness (word?) of your lines makes it hard for me to tell what's happening at the left and center where the tracks come close together. Depending on what's happening at the center, you may have a reverse loop at the upper right as well. Sorry, I just can't see it well enough and will leave it to someone else.

....Tom

On Saturday, March 2, 2019, 9:13:49 AM MST, Tom O'Hara <tomohara314@...> wrote:


Sorry. My computer didn't pull up your picture, so you already did what I asked......Tom

On Saturday, March 2, 2019, 9:11:32 AM MST, Tom O'Hara <tomohara314@...> wrote:


Reverse loops can definitely be a problem, and I have seen reverse loops inside of reverse loops. Real problems! You'll probably solve this with auto-reversers, but you just have to make very certain that you aren't shorting between the rails. That means, in general, that you need your entire train inside the section that's reversing. There are exceptions, but it is a good rule to work with. It would help if you could publish a picture of your layout plan that some of us could study a bit.

.....Tom

Tom O Hara
 

Reverse loops can definitely be a problem, and I have seen reverse loops inside of reverse loops. Real problems! You'll probably solve this with auto-reversers, but you just have to make very certain that you aren't shorting between the rails. That means, in general, that you need your entire train inside the section that's reversing. There are exceptions, but it is a good rule to work with. It would help if you could publish a picture of your layout plan that some of us could study a bit.

.....Tom

Tom O Hara
 

Sorry. My computer didn't pull up your picture, so you already did what I asked......Tom

On Saturday, March 2, 2019, 9:11:32 AM MST, Tom O'Hara <tomohara314@...> wrote:


Reverse loops can definitely be a problem, and I have seen reverse loops inside of reverse loops. Real problems! You'll probably solve this with auto-reversers, but you just have to make very certain that you aren't shorting between the rails. That means, in general, that you need your entire train inside the section that's reversing. There are exceptions, but it is a good rule to work with. It would help if you could publish a picture of your layout plan that some of us could study a bit.

.....Tom

Tom G.
 

Hi Tom,

Were you able to view the image? I’ll attach it here in case. My intent isn’t to purposefully create reverse loops. I think by design I’m creating them inadvertently. I haven’t decided yet if I should alter the layout to avoid them. Aside from the extra cost it seems fairly simple? Thanks for the tip about the train fully fitting in the loop. I’m aware from another post but I will make sure. Thank you!



Thanks.
Tom

On Mar 2, 2019, at 11:11 AM, Tom O Hara via Groups.Io <tomohara314@...> wrote:

Reverse loops can definitely be a problem, and I have seen reverse loops inside of reverse loops. Real problems! You'll probably solve this with auto-reversers, but you just have to make very certain that you aren't shorting between the rails. That means, in general, that you need your entire train inside the section that's reversing. There are exceptions, but it is a good rule to work with. It would help if you could publish a picture of your layout plan that some of us could study a bit.

.....Tom

Carl
 

Hello Tom:

My first question is: What is the purpose of your layout, how do you plan to operate? Run trains, switching, scenery, etc.

Plus NMRA has a special interest group that plans layouts, you might look them up.


http://www.ldsig.org/

Carl.

On 3/2/2019 6:58 PM, Tom G. via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi Tom,

Were you able to view the image? I’ll attach it here in case. My intent isn’t to purposefully create reverse loops. I think by design I’m creating them inadvertently. I haven’t decided yet if I should alter the layout to avoid them. Aside from the extra cost it seems fairly simple? Thanks for the tip about the train fully fitting in the loop. I’m aware from another post but I will make sure. Thank you!



Thanks.
Tom

On Mar 2, 2019, at 11:11 AM, Tom O Hara via Groups.Io <tomohara314@...> wrote:

Reverse loops can definitely be a problem, and I have seen reverse loops inside of reverse loops. Real problems! You'll probably solve this with auto-reversers, but you just have to make very certain that you aren't shorting between the rails. That means, in general, that you need your entire train inside the section that's reversing. There are exceptions, but it is a good rule to work with. It would help if you could publish a picture of your layout plan that some of us could study a bit.

.....Tom

Virus-free. www.avast.com

Tom G.
 

Hi Carl,

The purpose of the layout is to run trains with my 7 year old and get him building different pieces. Not as structured as some. Being able to run multiple trains and for him to play in different sections. Thanks for the link!

Thanks.
Tom

On Mar 3, 2019, at 9:20 AM, Carl <carl.blum@...> wrote:

Hello Tom:

My first question is: What is the purpose of your layout, how do you plan to operate? Run trains, switching, scenery, etc.

Plus NMRA has a special interest group that plans layouts, you might look them up.


http://www.ldsig.org/

Carl.

On 3/2/2019 6:58 PM, Tom G. via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi Tom,

Were you able to view the image? I’ll attach it here in case. My intent isn’t to purposefully create reverse loops. I think by design I’m creating them inadvertently. I haven’t decided yet if I should alter the layout to avoid them. Aside from the extra cost it seems fairly simple? Thanks for the tip about the train fully fitting in the loop. I’m aware from another post but I will make sure. Thank you!



Thanks.
Tom

On Mar 2, 2019, at 11:11 AM, Tom O Hara via Groups.Io <tomohara314@...> wrote:

Reverse loops can definitely be a problem, and I have seen reverse loops inside of reverse loops. Real problems! You'll probably solve this with auto-reversers, but you just have to make very certain that you aren't shorting between the rails. That means, in general, that you need your entire train inside the section that's reversing. There are exceptions, but it is a good rule to work with. It would help if you could publish a picture of your layout plan that some of us could study a bit.

.....Tom

Virus-free. www.avast.com

Carl
 

Hello Tom:

Next question: How will you control turnouts?

1) Master Dispatcher panel?

2) Point of use, controls at fascia or hand control at tracks?

I think you said this will be N or HO, so I would suggest using power routing at turnouts with quite a lead before you get to the frog. That way you won't be derailing at points thrown against the train. On Jim's layout we used power routing to also control signals, not prototypical, but useful.

Tell us more!

Carl.

On 3/3/2019 10:01 AM, Tom G. via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi Carl,

The purpose of the layout is to run trains with my 7 year old and get him building different pieces. Not as structured as some. Being able to run multiple trains and for him to play in different sections. Thanks for the link!

Thanks.
Tom

On Mar 3, 2019, at 9:20 AM, Carl <carl.blum@...> wrote:

Hello Tom:

My first question is: What is the purpose of your layout, how do you plan to operate? Run trains, switching, scenery, etc.

Plus NMRA has a special interest group that plans layouts, you might look them up.


http://www.ldsig.org/

Carl.

On 3/2/2019 6:58 PM, Tom G. via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi Tom,

Were you able to view the image? I’ll attach it here in case. My intent isn’t to purposefully create reverse loops. I think by design I’m creating them inadvertently. I haven’t decided yet if I should alter the layout to avoid them. Aside from the extra cost it seems fairly simple? Thanks for the tip about the train fully fitting in the loop. I’m aware from another post but I will make sure. Thank you!



Thanks.
Tom

On Mar 2, 2019, at 11:11 AM, Tom O Hara via Groups.Io <tomohara314@...> wrote:

Reverse loops can definitely be a problem, and I have seen reverse loops inside of reverse loops. Real problems! You'll probably solve this with auto-reversers, but you just have to make very certain that you aren't shorting between the rails. That means, in general, that you need your entire train inside the section that's reversing. There are exceptions, but it is a good rule to work with. It would help if you could publish a picture of your layout plan that some of us could study a bit.

.....Tom

Virus-free. www.avast.com

Tom G.
 

Hi Carl,

Thanks for your response. This is N Scale Kato Unitrack with #6 turnouts. I’d like to have a panel but I haven’t gotten to that point yet. The plan is to us the Digikeijs DR 5000 along with their DR4018 switch decoder and DR4101 switch motor interface. I’d like to make a lighted panel for switch position as well. I planned to isolate the turnouts and not use power routing, forgive me I thought DCC you powered all track at all times. 

Thanks.
Tom

On Mar 3, 2019, at 10:11 AM, Carl <carl.blum@...> wrote:

Hello Tom:

Next question: How will you control turnouts?

1) Master Dispatcher panel?

2) Point of use, controls at fascia or hand control at tracks?

I think you said this will be N or HO, so I would suggest using power routing at turnouts with quite a lead before you get to the frog. That way you won't be derailing at points thrown against the train. On Jim's layout we used power routing to also control signals, not prototypical, but useful.

Tell us more!

Carl.

On 3/3/2019 10:01 AM, Tom G. via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi Carl,

The purpose of the layout is to run trains with my 7 year old and get him building different pieces. Not as structured as some. Being able to run multiple trains and for him to play in different sections. Thanks for the link!

Thanks.
Tom

On Mar 3, 2019, at 9:20 AM, Carl <carl.blum@...> wrote:

Hello Tom:

My first question is: What is the purpose of your layout, how do you plan to operate? Run trains, switching, scenery, etc.

Plus NMRA has a special interest group that plans layouts, you might look them up.


http://www.ldsig.org/

Carl.

On 3/2/2019 6:58 PM, Tom G. via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi Tom,

Were you able to view the image? I’ll attach it here in case. My intent isn’t to purposefully create reverse loops. I think by design I’m creating them inadvertently. I haven’t decided yet if I should alter the layout to avoid them. Aside from the extra cost it seems fairly simple? Thanks for the tip about the train fully fitting in the loop. I’m aware from another post but I will make sure. Thank you!



Thanks.
Tom

On Mar 2, 2019, at 11:11 AM, Tom O Hara via Groups.Io <tomohara314@...> wrote:

Reverse loops can definitely be a problem, and I have seen reverse loops inside of reverse loops. Real problems! You'll probably solve this with auto-reversers, but you just have to make very certain that you aren't shorting between the rails. That means, in general, that you need your entire train inside the section that's reversing. There are exceptions, but it is a good rule to work with. It would help if you could publish a picture of your layout plan that some of us could study a bit.

.....Tom

Virus-free. www.avast.com

Tom O Hara
 

I  saw the image, but I couldn't follow it through the places where the tracks came close together. If you could reprint/rescan in a format that would be a little more clear in those areas, I am sure a number of us would take a shot at it. Perhaps other people have a better view of it than I do. I have definitely hunted down those reverse loops on other layouts as lots of us have. I once analyzed a layout for a friend who had a loop inside a loop inside a loop. We redrew the layout.

.... Tom

Tom G.
 

I will color code the track lines

Thanks.
Tom

On Mar 3, 2019, at 1:40 PM, Tom O Hara via Groups.Io <tomohara314@...> wrote:

I  saw the image, but I couldn't follow it through the places where the tracks came close together. If you could reprint/rescan in a format that would be a little more clear in those areas, I am sure a number of us would take a shot at it. Perhaps other people have a better view of it than I do. I have definitely hunted down those reverse loops on other layouts as lots of us have. I once analyzed a layout for a friend who had a loop inside a loop inside a loop. We redrew the layout.

.... Tom

Tom G.
 

Tom,

Hopefully this is clearer. The main concern is that I have the yard approachable from both sides. Would that be considered a reverse loop even if I insulate the rail joiners at the switches and bus power on both sides individually?

Am I incorrectly looking at the wiring?

I color coded to make it clearer. I know, it's not perfect but you can differentiate the lines a bit more.

I took a snip of each section Left, Center and Right. Links below:
If there's  a better way for all to view please let me know!
Thank you!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ur1n6s459r2safj/TomG_W4DCCQA_LayoutYard_LeftSide.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d9c8lb1xbh06kxi/TomG_W4DCCQA_LayoutCenter.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/84vf6h3t4edq9ld/TomG_W4DCCQA_LayoutMountain_RightSide.jpg?dl=0

Paul O
 

Tom et all, I did a cut&paste of your colored track layout.
In the PHOTOS section: "Tom G's Layout"
Hope this helps everyone.

Paul O

Tom O Hara
 

It is much easier to see with your colorizing.

Someone suggested that you take this to the layout design group, and I agree that is a better place to get more opinions. But I would make a few comments to get you started. The left end with the yard has at least three reversing loops... maybe four. Including ones inside others. These would be very difficult to wire and maintain the logic. The middle second goes around and around with not much operation connection to the rest of the railroad. The right hand end is a spaghetti  bowl of track that would be hard to build and goes around the same scenery in a confusing and, I think you'd find, very redundant path. There may be another reverse loop trapped between the right and left ends, but I am not sure.

Again, I think this is more a subject for the Layout Design group. But I really hope you'll reconsider the center and right sections to have less track and a simpler flow. I think you'd like the operation much better. 

.....Tom

whmvd
 

Hi Tom,

It *IS* a lot clearer, thanks!

So far, after looking for about 5 minutes, I spotted four reversing sections, but I haven't paid enough attention yet to what's going on top right. There might well be a fifth lurking there. Truth is, I'm getting a bit dizzy! :-)

Wouter


On Mon, 4 Mar 2019 at 02:02, Tom G. via Groups.Io <tjg81296=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Tom,

Hopefully this is clearer. The main concern is that I have the yard approachable from both sides. Would that be considered a reverse loop even if I insulate the rail joiners at the switches and bus power on both sides individually?

Am I incorrectly looking at the wiring?

I color coded to make it clearer. I know, it's not perfect but you can differentiate the lines a bit more.

I took a snip of each section Left, Center and Right. Links below:
If there's  a better way for all to view please let me know!
Thank you!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ur1n6s459r2safj/TomG_W4DCCQA_LayoutYard_LeftSide.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d9c8lb1xbh06kxi/TomG_W4DCCQA_LayoutCenter.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/84vf6h3t4edq9ld/TomG_W4DCCQA_LayoutMountain_RightSide.jpg?dl=0

Mark Cartwright
 

Tom....

Three Suggestions as you are new to DCC and perhaps N Scale Unitrack
(but for now...I will only burden you with one)
1. Kato Unitrack (computer generated) plans can be a bit deceptive as to actual performance and even given spacing.
 Looking at your basic design, I believe you will be running short 4 Wheel Switchers and short trains of 5-7 cars.
That is not Passenger Trains of ABBA consists with upwards of 17-21 cars or even short to medium steam locomotives.
And in the retrospect...
That is after you have created this plan for actual use....
>>> You maybe sorry.
Every switch, every tight curve, every reverse loop and every graduation of track into an ever increasing percentage of grade is just looking for trouble.
Plus when ever possible Avoid S Curves or those transitions which even suggest such a thing.
So..
>>>  My first suggestion is to ONLY run the outside single track first. <<<
That is the Green Line.
This too will change as you test it and run it with your preferred locomotive and train length.
Once you have it up and running....
Step back and think again.....
FIRST = Find Success !
============================
There is so much more to learn and un-learn.
I would really like to see you SURVIVE your first layout.
:)) Mark

Consider this Man's Journey through N Scale as inspiration to your own efforts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUTS7qXQERX8n9x8dgIFxI0w&time_continue=373&v=DXEMFjB-u00

One more strong suggestion...
Share with us...Which of the many or few perhaps just one N Scale Locomotive you are considering operating upon your layout.
Not everything in N Scale will operate well even on 19 inch curves; nor through #6 Kato Switches.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/267707.aspx

And Yes, Manufacturers Lie; while most Train Store Clerks don't actually have an Operational N Scale Layout at Home.
They are simply doing what the Economics of Today demand and are throwing a wider loop to bring in a larger herd.
With that said....I tend to be a Maverick and test everything for and upon my layout.
My given radius for my N Scale Layout is currently 28 to 71 inches and includes mostly Parabolic Curves...Not 90 Degree Curves.

Brian Eiland
 

Plus NMRA has a special interest group that plans layouts, you might look them up.

http://www.ldsig.org/

Carl.

************************************************
I looked up this site that you quoted, and I didn't detect that there was 'active help' in designing a new track plan. And it appeared as though some of the material is very dated (I saw one reference to 2006).

One of the reasons I was drawn to this conversation is that I am building a new double deck layout,...and I'm new to DCC,....and I am challenged by the electrical wiring. So I am definitely going to need help on wiring, and particularly reverse loops.

Brian

Carl
 

Hi Brian:

I'm not a member of the group, but they always have a busy room at the National Convention. Since my layout is finished, it isn't an interest to me. I used John Armstrong's suggestions in my planning, 20 years ago!! How time flies. If you join the group they may have more options for help??

The design elements I did use were:

Around the walls plan. Stair way up into the center for people, so no duck under.

Double track main line around the room three times.

Main Yard on one wall and three towns to switch on the other walls.

Hidden in a mountain two reversing loops where the track drops, so one loop over the mains, and one under.

During operating sessions the layout is run as a dog bone, so the main is three times clock wise and then three times counter clock wise.

For visitor displays I can run two trains on loops.

40% of the main is in tunnels, so it makes the runs appear longer.

Carl.

On 3/4/2019 8:28 AM, Brian Eiland wrote:

Plus NMRA has a special interest group that plans layouts, you might look them up.

http://www.ldsig.org/

Carl.

************************************************
I looked up this site that you quoted, and I didn't detect that there was 'active help' in designing a new track plan. And it appeared as though some of the material is very dated (I saw one reference to 2006).

One of the reasons I was drawn to this conversation is that I am building a new double deck layout,...and I'm new to DCC,....and I am challenged by the electrical wiring. So I am definitely going to need help on wiring, and particularly reverse loops.

Brian

Virus-free. www.avast.com

Tom G.
 

Mark/Tom/Wouter,

I cannot thank you guys enough for your input. I agree with Mark, I'm trying to fit as much in here as possible and will end up suffering, It's easier to add than take away later and have money tossed for parts I don't need. I'm concerned at the level of technical difficulty in operations as well. I did my best to keep my radius above 11" using only two curves at 11" with the majority in 13 3/4" and 12 3/8". Based on what you said, should I be steering away from Kato? I looked at the links you sent and man, my space shrunk by a lot. If I need 28" radius how does Kato even stay in business? I thought I was doing well with my curves. I'd like to know more but I don't want to flood everyone with emails since the group gets them all.

I am sharing the track plan made with Scarm ( if it makes it easier to see the layout) My thoughts on Scarm and the layout is I will make adjustments as I go along the build process. 

I changed the right side to more of an oval helix like a train around a mountain.

Scarm Layout:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/q78e8nhkd63t3tn/GradyPlayroomScarm_v25.scarm?dl=0

Yard:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qp7f0vm1jfcsxpi/TomG_W4DCCQA_Layout_Yard_LeftSideV25.jpg?dl=0

Center Section:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xx6co6a1gv80g90/TomG_W4DCCQA_Layout_CenterV25.jpg?dl=0

Mountain/Right Side Section:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/alfeqd96i6z18pv/TomG_W4DCCQA_Layout_RightSideMountainV25.jpg?dl=0

3D Rendering of Layout:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1opkf41roi55vjx/TomG_W4DCCQA_Layout_3D.jpg?dl=0

Brian Lewis
 

There is certainly a better way. It called 'Attachments'.......

I can scarcely believe that, in 2019, there are still elists  that do not allow them. Why is that pray?

On 04/03/2019 09:34, whmvd wrote:

--

Regards and thanks

 

Brian Lewis