Topics

DCC/DC and Dual Frof Juicer as Auto Reverser.

John Heaps
 

Hi,

I am building a second N scale layout. My existing permanent layout in a 12m x 6m room is powered by an NCE Powercab.

I'm building a smaller portable layout with my grandson to be powered by DCC++ . I also want to be able to run it with DC.

The layout will be a dogbone style and will have two crossovers between the two tracks, hence creating reverse loops. When running under DC these crossovers won't be used so I only have to worry about reverse loops when running under DCC.

I plan on using Tam Valley Dual Frog Juicers as auto reversers. ( I use these on my permanent layout)

I plan on using a 4PDT mini toggle switch so I can completely isolate the Dual Frog Juicers when running DC.

I contacted Tam Valley who told me many people use Dual Frog Juicers with both DCC and DC, even though they say they don't operate under DC.

My questions.

How have other people wired the layout if using Dual frog Juicers with both DCC and DC ?

Would the contacts on a 4PDT mini toggle switch stand up to the rigour of having an auto reverser operating through them ?

Cheers,

John Heaps,

Victoria Australia.

Carl
 

Hello John:

Your layout plan is similar to Jim Behling's layout which I helped wire. His is a folded dog bone with three crossovers wired as reversing loops. With hind sight I now see only the end loops could have been wired as reversing sections.

I would think the longer loops would be easier to wire than the short crossovers. And any reversing options would work fine.

Carl.

On 11/27/2019 7:23 PM, John Heaps wrote:
Hi,

I am building a second N scale layout. My existing permanent layout in a 12m x 6m room is powered by an NCE Powercab.

I'm building a smaller portable layout with my grandson to be powered by DCC++ . I also want to be able to run it with DC.

The layout will be a dogbone style and will have two crossovers between the two tracks, hence creating reverse loops. When running under DC these crossovers won't be used so I only have to worry about reverse loops when running under DCC.

I plan on using Tam Valley Dual Frog Juicers as auto reversers. ( I use these on my permanent layout)

I plan on using a 4PDT mini toggle switch so I can completely isolate the Dual Frog Juicers when running DC.

I contacted Tam Valley who told me many people use Dual Frog Juicers with both DCC and DC, even though they say they don't operate under DC.

My questions.

How have other people wired the layout if using Dual frog Juicers with both DCC and DC ?

Would the contacts on a 4PDT mini toggle switch stand up to the rigour of having an auto reverser operating through them ?

Cheers,

John Heaps,

Victoria Australia.





wirefordcc
 

On my website is a diagram with a folded dogbone and crossovers.

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm#a43

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC

John Heaps
 

Hi Carl and Allan,

Thank you for your replies.

My plan was to wire it as in the diagram in Allan's website.

However I want to be able to run with either DCC or DC.
When running with DC the crossover will not be used, hence no reverse section.

If a reverser, such as a Tam Valley Dual Frog Juicer, has DC applied to it will it:
1. be damaged ?.
2. allow the DC to go through to the track, or do I have to isolate the Dual Frog Juicer ?

I will also need to use a DPDT switch to reverse the polarity of one of the tracks ( one of the black tracks on Allan's diagram) between the end loops when running under DC.

Cheers,
John Heaps,
Vic. Australia.

On 30/11/2019 11:23 am, wirefordcc wrote:
On my website is a diagram with a folded dogbone and crossovers.

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm#a43

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC

John Heaps
 

Hi Carl and Allan,

Thank you for your replies.

My plan was to wire it as in the diagram in Allan's website.

However I want to be able to run with either DCC or DC.
When running with DC the crossover will not be used, hence no reverse section.

If a reverser, such as a Tam Valley Dual Frog Juicer, has DC applied to it will it:
1. be damaged ?.
2. allow the DC to go through to the track, or do I have to isolate the Dual Frog Juicer ?

I will also need to use a DPDT switch to reverse the polarity of one of the tracks ( one of the black tracks on Allan's diagram) between the end loops when running under DC.

Cheers,
John Heaps,
Vic. Australia.

On 30/11/2019 11:23 am, wirefordcc wrote:
On my website is a diagram with a folded dogbone and crossovers.

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm#a43

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC

wirefordcc
 

Hi John,

Have you contacted Tam Valley and asked them?  You are planning to use the Frog Juicer in a layout in a way it wasn't intended.  I don't want to guess and be wrong.

I thought you said you weren't going to use the crossover when using DC.  If Tam Valley says you won't harm their juicer, one thing is for sure, the juicer won't be able to reverse polarity when DC is applied.  A juicer can reverse polarity for DCC because the DCC power signal is a form of AC.

Good luck!

Allan
Wiring for DCC

John Heaps
 

Hi Allan,

Thanks for your reply.

Tam Valley market the Dual Frog Juicer as an auto reverser.  Their documentation says "This board can be configured to use as an automatic polarity reverser for two frogs, a reversing loop, a turntable, a wye, or a crossing."  A jumper is used to connect 2 pins to use as an auto reverser.

I am using 2 Dual Frog Juicers as auto reversers on my home layout and they do a good job. This layout is DCC only and will never be exposed to DC.

I contacted Tam Valley. Their reply was: 

"Many people have used the frog juicers with DCC and DC on a layout and no one has had any units go bad.
So it is safe to do."

As many people have used them on both DCC and DC I thought there may be some on this list who could give me the benefit of their experience.

I know it will not reverse polarity with DC but wondered if it would allow the DC power to pass through as if was not there. Maybe I need a follow up email to Tam Valley.

My young grandson was very disappointed that I could not take my home layout to a exhibition my club held recently. The new layout is being built as a result of that and to some extent is experimental and I'm trying some things I have not done before.

Cheers,

John Heaps,

Vic. Australia.


On 1/12/2019 12:19 pm, wirefordcc wrote:

Hi John,

Have you contacted Tam Valley and asked them?  You are planning to use the Frog Juicer in a layout in a way it wasn't intended.  I don't want to guess and be wrong.

I thought you said you weren't going to use the crossover when using DC.  If Tam Valley says you won't harm their juicer, one thing is for sure, the juicer won't be able to reverse polarity when DC is applied.  A juicer can reverse polarity for DCC because the DCC power signal is a form of AC.

Good luck!

Allan
Wiring for DCC

Greg Harter
 

Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 09:28:42 -0500
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] Allan Gartner's Wiring for DCC Question and Answer Forum - Digest #272
I think there is a simpler solution to this (potential) problem.  install a
DC/DCC detector in the power to the crossover turnouts.  When the current
on both (mainlines?  Whatever!!) matches, the turnouts operate.  If the
current is different, they won't.  These detectors work on a single track
also.  Just put a 2' section of track between the two that can have DC or
DCC, and the track goes dead if the current sources don't match.  We have
been using these detectors on our large HO club layout for 8 years + with
no problems.  The two guys who designed and constructed these detectors are
both gone, but we have the wiring diagrams and component lists to make
them.  Circuit board is about 4" x 6".   Not hard to do.  We did a clinic
on these at the Indy NMRA show in 2016.  If you'd like more info, or to see
a photo or diagram, just ask!
Greg Harter--Columbus Area Railroad Club, Columbus, Indiana

Paul O
 

Greg,
please post the diagram/schematic in the photo section; I’m sure a number of people would be interested in it.
I know I am.

Paul O

John Heaps
 

Hi Greg,

Thanks for your reply.

The DC/DCC detector sounds very interesting. I would certainly be interested in more details and seeing a diagram.

Cheers,

John Heaps,
Vic, Australia.

On 2/12/2019 1:32 am, Greg Harter wrote:
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 09:28:42 -0500
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] Allan Gartner's Wiring for DCC Question and Answer Forum - Digest #272
I think there is a simpler solution to this (potential) problem.  install a
DC/DCC detector in the power to the crossover turnouts.  When the current
on both (mainlines?  Whatever!!) matches, the turnouts operate.  If the
current is different, they won't.  These detectors work on a single track
also.  Just put a 2' section of track between the two that can have DC or
DCC, and the track goes dead if the current sources don't match.  We have
been using these detectors on our large HO club layout for 8 years + with
no problems.  The two guys who designed and constructed these detectors are
both gone, but we have the wiring diagrams and component lists to make
them.  Circuit board is about 4" x 6".   Not hard to do.  We did a clinic
on these at the Indy NMRA show in 2016.  If you'd like more info, or to see
a photo or diagram, just ask!
Greg Harter--Columbus Area Railroad Club, Columbus, Indiana

Greg Harter
 

here is the schematic, a components listthe description, a picture, hope this is all you need!

Greg Harter
 

oops, forgot the other diagram.

Greg Harter
 

DC/DCC detectors to permit layouts to run both:

apparently I don't know how to do this.  My note to the group went through, but not the schematics, etc.
Can somebody help me with this?

Greg Harter

David McBrayer
 


Greg,
To get your schematics and other images into the Group you will need to create a folder and then upload to your new folder.

How: click on the “View/Reply Online” item below. Then select “Photos” on the left side of the screen; create a folder with a short descriptive name - your first and last name, or project name will suffice. Upload your images and schematics into the folder. Then post a message stating you’ve done this and the name of your folder.

Cheers,
Dave

On Dec 3, 2019, at 05:34, Greg Harter <greg1462@...> wrote:
DC/DCC detectors to permit layouts to run both:
apparently I don't know how to do this. My note to the group went through, but not the schematics, etc.
Can somebody help me with this?

Greg Harter
--
Dave McBrayer
Castro Valley, CA

Greg Harter
 

to David McBrayer;  Thanks for your detailed instructions.  I don't have photos, only wiring schematics, component lists, and diagrams.  The process you described will not allow anything but photos.  

What can I do to get this information out to the DCC group?

Thanks in advance!

Sincerely,

Greg Harter

Brian Lewis
 

I sigh every time I see this - it happens quite regularly.  This is the only group of which I am a member, that does not allow attachments. Is there any good reason for this?

On 03/12/2019 13:34, Greg Harter wrote:
DC/DCC detectors to permit layouts to run both:

apparently I don't know how to do this.  My note to the group went through, but not the schematics, etc.
Can somebody help me with this?

Greg Harter
--

Regards and thanks

 

Brian Lewis

Blair & Rasa
 

Greg

If you're logged into groups.io, you should be able to open the files folder at the w4dccqa group.  This link should get you there:

https://groups.io/g/w4dccqa/files

When you're on the group home page, the files portion appears as a link on the left hand side of the page, right below photos.

Blair

David McBrayer
 

Greg,
Following on your reply and the message posted this morning from Blair & Rasa.

Since your files are not of an image filetype, I suggest you use the procedure I suggested in the ‘Photos’ tab but now in the ‘Files’ tab. Within your named folder under the ‘Files’ tab you may include a mix of image and document filetypes as well as ‘*.zip’ files, should you so choose. Then post to this group a message announcing you have done the above and include a link to the folder that others may benefit.

—Dave

On Dec 4, 2019, at 05:41, Greg Harter <greg1462@...> wrote:
to David McBrayer; Thanks for your detailed instructions. I don't have photos, only wiring schematics, component lists, and diagrams. The process you described will not allow anything but photos.

What can I do to get this information out to the DCC group?

Thanks in advance!

Sincerely,
Greg Harter
--
Dave McBrayer
Castro Valley, CA

Greg Harter
 

I uploaded the two DC/DCC files after creating a location called DC/DCC.  

BTW, I do think this is involved with wiring for DCC--to accommodate DC, for what it's worth.

Greg Harter

Blair & Rasa
 

if that comment was in response to my "nothing to do with DCC" comment, I was talking about the history of attachments, NOT your discussion of DC/DCC. Just to be clear. That was why I rephrased the subject line.
Blair

On 2019-12-05 9:47, Greg Harter wrote:
///
BTW, I do think this is involved with wiring for DCC--to accommodate DC, for what it's worth.
///