Auto reverse area “dead”


Charles Cauble
 

In the photo albums, the first photo in “Charles layout design” shows the 3 isolation locations on the peninsula for auto rev. #2. I’ve removed all electricity from this area except the output side of a psx-ar and there’s no power in the isolated area. Have I missed something?
The NCE doesn’t short out and I’ve proven the psx-ar to ok.


Blair
 

Charles
There really isn't an answer - if you've truly isolated both rails of the indicated track, and each rail is only wired to one of the two outputs of the PSX-AR, and the PSX-AR is indeed receiving input power from the booster, then either
one rail isn't, in fact, wired to the PSX-AR
or the other rail isn't
or the PSX-AR isn't doing it's job.
So, tell us how you tested the PSX-AR, and how you've verified that the PSX-AR has input power.  There has to be something wrong with the testing, or the test interpretation.
Blair


Charles Cauble
 

I put a jumper J6-1 to J6-2 since I use NCE.  THen I wired it and cut all drops from bus in that section. The lights weren’t on so I traced down a bad connection on the input side and it lit the 2 leds. I’m beginning to think my output wies may not have good connection.  Just to be sure sure, those 2 wires from psx ar are the only power to that section, correct?


Blair
 

I don't have one here, but that's the way I read the instructions on their website.  Have you executed the test on page 3 of the manual?

On 10/11/2021 10:54 AM, Charles Cauble wrote:
I put a jumper J6-1 to J6-2 since I use NCE.  THen I wired it and cut all drops from bus in that section. The lights weren’t on so I traced down a bad connection on the input side and it lit the 2 leds. I’m beginning to think my output wies may not have good connection.  Just to be sure sure, those 2 wires from psx ar are the only power to that section, correct?


Blair
 

And yes, those would be the only two wires to the section.

On 10/11/2021 10:54 AM, Charles Cauble wrote:
I put a jumper J6-1 to J6-2 since I use NCE.  THen I wired it and cut all drops from bus in that section. The lights weren’t on so I traced down a bad connection on the input side and it lit the 2 leds. I’m beginning to think my output wies may not have good connection.  Just to be sure sure, those 2 wires from psx ar are the only power to that section, correct?


Charles Cauble
 

I have the ar #2 section working now from the curve down through the straight side of the turnout on around the outside edge of the peninsula and up through the other switch.  The inner loop in the peninsula stalls right at the switch as it comes back into the outer loop on that same switch. If I use a metal joiner on the outside leg it shorts that block because the polarities collide but if I use a plastic joiner the engine stalls. I have a frog juicer on the switch so I don’t think it’s the frog but what’s going to switch polarities as it comes back into the turnout?


whmvd
 

Charles,

Both rails need to be isolated at both ends, so that starting from the switch into the loop you see:
- track leading off it, left AND right isolated
- continuous track until, before getting to the switch again, you reach\
- another point where both rails are isolated, and only then do you reach
- the switch again, at its other leg.
What you have is, however you configured it (and I don't know) not correctly isolated with regard to the tgrack, or not correctly wired as far as the AR unit is concerned. The track bus goes into the AR unit (polarity does not matter), its outputs (and NOTHING else) go to the left and right doubly-isolated rail between the two legs of the switch (again, polarity does not matter). Then the AR will correct when a train crosses either one of the divides. If a train is too long and crosses both divides, you have a short again. Same thing if you have two different trains crossing the two different divides at the same time. That's just the way it is. Careful positioning of the isolation is needed so you get maximum ease of use out of the final situation.

Wouter


On Tue, 12 Oct 2021 at 12:41, Charles Cauble <drbeetlebaum@...> wrote:
I have the ar #2 section working now from the curve down through the straight side of the turnout on around the outside edge of the peninsula and up through the other switch.  The inner loop in the peninsula stalls right at the switch as it comes back into the outer loop on that same switch. If I use a metal joiner on the outside leg it shorts that block because the polarities collide but if I use a plastic joiner the engine stalls. I have a frog juicer on the switch so I don’t think it’s the frog but what’s going to switch polarities as it comes back into the turnout?


Blair
 

Charles

You cannot do a reversing section with only one rail isolated.  You MUST isolate both rails at all entry/exit points of the portion to be auto-reversed.  If you've done that, and I misunderstand your report below, I apologize, but dual isolation is an absolute.

Have you done the PSX-AR test, as asked yesterday?


On 2021-10-12 7:41, Charles Cauble wrote:
I have the ar #2 section working now from the curve down through the straight side of the turnout on around the outside edge of the peninsula and up through the other switch.  The inner loop in the peninsula stalls right at the switch as it comes back into the outer loop on that same switch. If I use a metal joiner on the outside leg it shorts that block because the polarities collide but if I use a plastic joiner the engine stalls. I have a frog juicer on the switch so I don’t think it’s the frog but what’s going to switch polarities as it comes back into the turnout?


Charles Cauble
 

This morning I went through all the steps verifying that the psx-ar is still working correctly. Then I rewired the frog on the left of the peninsula because I didn’t see it blink on the juicer.  It does blink when the loco tries to do the turn out but then the loco stalls and shorts off the power block.  The loco makes it through both peninsula turnouts if they’re left straight but stalls on the left when doing a turnout. The right one works. I also noticed that the psx-ar doesn’t blink when first turned on and does the slow blink once the loco enters the isolated section but it continues to blink from then on whether you go in or out of the isolated section. I assume that since I proved the chip the current at this stage of my layout does not need reversing again. I’m trying to layout and drop track temporarily to see if my lack of completion on other sections is not reversing on the conflict at the left switch. 
.......Charles


Blair
 

See below.

Blair

On 10/12/2021 10:55 AM, Charles Cauble wrote:
This morning I went through all the steps verifying that the psx-ar is still working correctly. Then I rewired the frog on the left of the peninsula because I didn’t see it blink on the juicer.  It does blink when the loco tries to do the turn out but then the loco stalls and shorts off the power block.  The loco makes it through both peninsula turnouts if they’re left straight but stalls on the left when doing a turnout. The right one works. I also noticed that the psx-ar doesn’t blink when first turned on and does the slow blink once the loco enters the isolated section
Okay, so it reversed the outputs when you entered the section.
but it continues to blink from then on whether you go in or out of the isolated section.
Crossing the same gaps?  Once they're aligned, nothing will change.  But if you mean you are crossing the gaps at one of the other ends of the reversing section, it will depend on whether you're aligned with them or not.  If you've been messing with the wiring, it's hard to tell.  Honestly, you need to give us more details.

I assume that since I proved the chip the current at this stage of my layout does not need reversing again.
That did not make sense.
I’m trying to layout and drop track temporarily to see if my lack of completion on other sections is not reversing on the conflict at the left switch.
And that didn't either.
.......Charles


Charles Cauble
 

I've completed all the track.  redrawn it so someone can check the wiring but
 I have forgotten how to get the photo up loaded to the album


Blair
 

Charles,

Did you get it posted?  If not, click on the "reply online" link below, which should take you to the groups' webpage on the groups.io site.  On the left hand side, you'll see links for a photos area, and a files area.  If your plan is now a .jpg file, you should post it in the photos area; if it's a PDF, it should go in the files area.

Blair

On 2021-11-29 13:01, Charles Cauble wrote:
I've completed all the track.  redrawn it so someone can check the wiring but
 I have forgotten how to get the photo up loaded to the album


D B
 

Blair,
Is the “reply online” link to which you refer, the “reply to group” link?
Thank you for the info. how to post. 
Bill D
N&W Steam Only


On Dec 1, 2021, at 8:44 AM, Blair <smithbr@...> wrote:



Charles,

Did you get it posted?  If not, click on the "reply online" link below, which should take you to the groups' webpage on the groups.io site.  On the left hand side, you'll see links for a photos area, and a files area.  If your plan is now a .jpg file, you should post it in the photos area; if it's a PDF, it should go in the files area.

Blair

On 2021-11-29 13:01, Charles Cauble wrote:
I've completed all the track.  redrawn it so someone can check the wiring but
 I have forgotten how to get the photo up loaded to the album


D B
 

Oops!   Missed “view/reply online”.  Not very tech savvy — literalist.  
But when you go there you first need to hit the “menu” (3 parallel horizontal lines) icon. That yields a list including photos and files. 
Learning experience and valuable knowledge. 
Bill D
N&W Steam Only


On Dec 1, 2021, at 9:23 AM, D B via groups.io <1932mgj2@...> wrote:

Blair,
Is the “reply online” link to which you refer, the “reply to group” link?
Thank you for the info. how to post. 
Bill D
N&W Steam Only


On Dec 1, 2021, at 8:44 AM, Blair <smithbr@...> wrote:



Charles,

Did you get it posted?  If not, click on the "reply online" link below, which should take you to the groups' webpage on the groups.io site.  On the left hand side, you'll see links for a photos area, and a files area.  If your plan is now a .jpg file, you should post it in the photos area; if it's a PDF, it should go in the files area.

Blair

On 2021-11-29 13:01, Charles Cauble wrote:
I've completed all the track.  redrawn it so someone can check the wiring but
 I have forgotten how to get the photo up loaded to the album


Charles Cauble
 

Finally got diagram up.  3 power districts run through a PM42.  #1 run perfectly and is all I can use.  #2 shorts out as soon as it’s connected to the PM42. I’ve been trying to find where for 4 weeks. #3 doesn’t short until my engine gets to the switch.  I have isolated each auto reverse section and run power to sections through 3 separate psx-ar’s.  All switches are frog juiced.  I’ve made sure drops, juicers, and auto reversers stay in their respective bus lines and don’t cross to another power district. Each juicer and psx- 42 was run through the instructions test. I use NCE power pro system. All power districts are isolated (dashed lines.)  I can’t think of anything unless I’ve put the isolations for the auto reverse sections in the wrong places. I’ve disconnected the 3 districts and tried each district alone but no change. Hope someone sees something wrong or has ideas. Thank y’all for looking at my diagram.  I retired 2 years ago, built me a train room in my walk-in attic and spend as much time in there as I want. It took a while to get all the track down because I had to build inclines, declines, bridges, trestles etc for the track work. I can’t do much more landscaping until I get the wiring figured out. 


Don Weigt
 

Don't offhand see anything wrong with power district two. But the lower turnout in power district 3 is gapped wrong. Not the + signs are opposite sides of the two tracks coming down to it. Those tracks (above the turnout as drawn) need both rails gapped at the turnout. No gaps are needed in the single track coming off the bottom of the turnout.

--
Don Weigt
Connecticut


Blair
 

"3 power districts run through a PM42.  #1 run perfectly and is all I can use.  #2 shorts out as soon as it’s connected to the PM42. I’ve been trying to find where for 4 weeks. #3 doesn’t short until my engine gets to the switch.  I have isolated each auto reverse section and run power to sections through 3 separate psx-ar’s.  All switches are frog juiced.  I’ve made sure drops, juicers, and auto reversers stay in their respective bus lines and don’t cross to another power district. Each juicer and psx- 42 was run through the instructions test. I use NCE power pro system. All power districts are isolated (dashed lines.)  I can’t think of anything unless I’ve put the isolations for the auto reverse sections in the wrong places.

Actually, if it's wired as depicted there's problems, for sure.   Follow the rightmost track on the left side as it turns to the right near the top.  At the turnout, the + changes sides on that track without any isolation.  If wired that way, yes, district 2 will have a dead short.

The stretch of track from the turnout on the left of the center peninsula that runs to the turnout in the lower section of PD3 is wired with the wrong polarity.

As I see it the gapping is okay as is, but the wiring as shown is a problem.  If you distill the drawing to it's relevant elements, it's pretty straightforward.  I'll post that elemental sketch to Charles' folder.  The section that's miswired is depicted in red on my sketch.

Blair

On 12/2/2021 9:50 AM, Don Weigt wrote:
Don't offhand see anything wrong with power district two. But the lower turnout in power district 3 is gapped wrong. Not the + signs are opposite sides of the two tracks coming down to it. Those tracks (above the turnout as drawn) need both rails gapped at the turnout. No gaps are needed in the single track coming off the bottom of the turnout.

--
Don Weigt
Connecticut


Charles Cauble
 

I don’t understand elemental sketches but your description of the track needing it’s polarity swapped helped. I rewired all the way from the left switch in power district 2 till it met the switch in power district 3.  Thanks.  It’s helped because now both #1 and #3 work with no shorts, etc.  Power District 2 still shorts out as soon as I try to hook it up so I have something else wrong


Don Weigt
 

Charles,

I missed that problem in #2's phase being switched at the turnout without gapping. I'm glad Blair caught it! And rewiring that removed the need to regap at the turnout in District 3. I'm glad District 3 is working now!

I don't see anything wrong now with revised District 2. There's more there that you're not showing us, or a gap that's shorted, or something like that. Maybe a crossed feeder pair.

I think you need to disconnect most of the feeders to District 2, until the short goes away, and part of it is powered, then look at the dead track and wiring related to it, and the boundaries where the dead track meets the live. Sounds like a chore, but less trouble than four weeks' head scratching!

Good luck

--
Don Weigt
Connecticut


Blair
 

elemental sketch - just de-curve your layout drawing, trying to minimize the points where tracks cross over, etc. I do this to try and figure out how I would depict the layout on a control panel.  For me, it makes the layout "essential features" much more easily determined.  In your case, it makes the simple loop nature of your layout clear, so observing where reversing sections are needed is straightforward.

Anyway, glad the comment helped.  If zone 2 is still giving you grief, and you've verified all of your booster gapping is indeed gapped (with no feeders inadvertently crossing from one zone to the other, for example, then it comes down to checking each and every feeder.  Tedious.  As Don said, it may come down to cutting/disconnecting feeders until the short goes away, then reconnecting, testing as you go.  If you have to do this, then consider having a buzzer and battery connected instead of the booster.  That's how I wire my feeders, and as a result I know immediately if something is wrong.

Good luck

Blair


On 2021-12-02 21:18, Charles Cauble wrote:
I don’t understand elemental sketches but your description of the track needing it’s polarity swapped helped. I rewired all the way from the left switch in power district 2 till it met the switch in power district 3.  Thanks.  It’s helped because now both #1 and #3 work with no shorts, etc.  Power District 2 still shorts out as soon as I try to hook it up so I have something else wrong