#### K.I.S.S.

PennsyNut

I sincerely want to thank each and everyone that responds. Just so we all enjoy this wonderful hobby. As for CV's, I always advise to stick with the basics. Why bother with CV29 until you actually need it. I program 4 digit loco numbers all the time with the simple method. And I firmly believe that newbies need only CV 3,4,5,6 to get a loco running the way they want. CV 2 is optional. As are most of the other CV's. IMHO. And this may not be the last word. LOL
Morgan Bilbo, new to DCC

Greg Elmassian

Wow, well, I have some experience with DCC and also a lot of experience with teaching and supporting.

When someone asks "how do I program CV29", what do you do?

Here's several legitimate responses:

1. you need to assemble the base 10 number from the bits in the binary representation of CV29
2. you can get a CV calculator

What's best?

Well, you could determine in your mind what is best.

You could spend some time "interviewing" the person to try to give the best response.

You could explain a method and then see if that "took" and if not, try an alternative.

I read this thread and there's some opinions that "anyone can understand binary and you should too", and also "your opinion is bad because you are making someone spend money", and lots of other opinions.

I have my opinions on how I go about answering the question... but won't bring those here.

What I do want to state, and hope my examples help emphasize this: A beginner asking what is a simple question to him, does not necessarily result in a simple answer, and there's many ways to go about it.

If you believe that with very little information other than the "simple question" you can immediately give the "best answer", well, I look up to your capabilities, I surely cannot answer the "CV29 question" without knowing a lot more about the person asking, or spending a lot more time trying various explanations.

So, I think everyone has a point here.

Greg

Lee Phillips

Thanks, Gary.
You are right on.  The more  I read, the dumber I become
I have tried to redo some of the CV with engine on track, but get a reading "Not available" to change OPS in this mode
I guess I will have to program on a dummy track

On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 11:51 AM Gary Chudzinski <chudgr@...> wrote:
Morgan Bilbo writes:   Why do the responses all seem to be: 1> over a beginners head. 2> involve spending money. 3> and sometimes confuse the original requestor. I see this a lot. A man asks about CV's and he gets told to buy a PR4 or it's equivalent to get JMRI and JAVA. Yes, that's good advice, but that isn't what the requester asked. And since I'm guessing that most requester's are novices or beginners, why overload them with future advice.

Morgan,
Being one whose technical knowledge is somewhere between high tech and new to DCC, I think I can answer your question using the KISS principle!  My observation is that when some individuals with a vast technical knowledge answer a technical question, they don't always respond to the most elementary level of the persons understanding.  This is not a slam at these folks, but there is such a wide range of DCC knowledge and understanding by members of the groups. io Lists that it's difficult to respond to the technical level of each.  I share your frustration at times, but I find responding directly, off list, to the person that has confused me brings results.  I think for the most part, if a person bothers to respond to questions, they are willing to clarify and help individually as much as possible.  When new to DCC, there is a lot to learn and patience, study, re-reading the manuals are all necessary!  It might also be helpful to identify in your post, that you are new to DCC with very limited understanding of DCC vernacular.  That should enhance a KISS response!  Hope this helps.

Gary Chudzinski

Morgan Bilbo writes:   Why do the responses all seem to be: 1> over a beginners head. 2> involve spending money. 3> and sometimes confuse the original requestor. I see this a lot. A man asks about CV's and he gets told to buy a PR4 or it's equivalent to get JMRI and JAVA. Yes, that's good advice, but that isn't what the requester asked. And since I'm guessing that most requester's are novices or beginners, why overload them with future advice.

Morgan,
Being one whose technical knowledge is somewhere between high tech and new to DCC, I think I can answer your question using the KISS principle!  My observation is that when some individuals with a vast technical knowledge answer a technical question, they don't always respond to the most elementary level of the persons understanding.  This is not a slam at these folks, but there is such a wide range of DCC knowledge and understanding by members of the groups. io Lists that it's difficult to respond to the technical level of each.  I share your frustration at times, but I find responding directly, off list, to the person that has confused me brings results.  I think for the most part, if a person bothers to respond to questions, they are willing to clarify and help individually as much as possible.  When new to DCC, there is a lot to learn and patience, study, re-reading the manuals are all necessary!  It might also be helpful to identify in your post, that you are new to DCC with very limited understanding of DCC vernacular.  That should enhance a KISS response!  Hope this helps.

whmvd

Tom,

Have you tried explaining to someone how to properly put together a long address field and program it? How to assign outputs to functions? Did you enjoy it? Did the recipient? And have you seen what DecoderPro does instead?

I don't see any argument for beginners being well off with just CV numbers and values they often have to cobble together in the most unintelligable way, whether decimal or hexadecimal - both are a pain, only a different sort of pain.

BTW: trying to get a 'last word' in there and then saying you don't want to argue the pros and cons does not work. At all. If you start an argument, you will get to hear the other side.

As to the original post: I think it's a tiny minority of cases where a beginning poster is overloaded with too much and too difficult information. Yes, it happens. Sometimes by somebody explaining at a level that is not appropriate for the audience. Yes, it is a pity when that does happen. On the other hand, it is very often impossible to give factually correct information without getting into the nitty-gritty. Difficult things being, well, difficult. But we can all only try. And I'm sure we all do. Sometimes more successfully than at other times.

Wouter

Wouter

On Mon, 20 May 2019 at 19:45, Tom O'Hara <tomohara5@...> wrote:
I'm afraid that we are getting close to causing grief here, but there is a significant point to be made. Programming can be done easily with the basic DCC system. There is no need for hexadecimal or bits. It can be done with standard base-ten numbers. As I said previously, I have done this on three different systems. (And I do comprehend hex.)

Later, if he wants to add Decoder Pro, it will still be there. I don't want to argue the pros and cons of approaching the programming by different methods. That's starting to sound like the start of a war. But is IS easy to program with a command station and a throttle. I do it all the time, and I do have Decoder Pro available for times when I want to use it.

.....Tom

On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 1:24 PM David Klemm <davidklemm7511@...> wrote:
Morgan

How is telling a person something that requires an understanding of hexadecimal and bits simpler?  Obviously he didn’t know what he didn’t know but giving advice on a solution that allows the use of plain English versus bits is a simpler solution.  Sure the person could have done a better job of leading the person with the question to that conclusion by showing what it means to have to program the ‘old’ fashioned way.

David Klemm
Xs Max

From: w4dccqa@groups.io <w4dccqa@groups.io> on behalf of PennsyNut <pennsynut@...>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2019 11:52
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: [w4dccqa] K.I.S.S.

I want to address a problem I see. Not specifically this forum. But when someone asks a question, has a problem, etc. Why do the responses all seem to be: 1> over a beginners head. 2> involve spending money. 3> and sometimes confuse the original requestor. I see this a lot. A man asks about CV's and he gets told to buy a PR4 or it's equivalent to get JMRI and JAVA. Yes, that's good advice, but that isn't what the requester asked. And since I'm guessing that most requester's are novices or beginners, why overload them with future advice. I did respond about CV's in a K.I.S.S. manner because that's what I thought the original request was for. Not to go buy more. A DC402 is NOT required. A PR4 is NOT required. The simple Zephyr or whatever will suffice until the beginner/novice/requester get his/her feet wet. After a bit of experiment, and a little more confidence, he/she can then decide on Decoder Pro or whatever. Sorry for this if it offends anyone. I do not intend to do that. I only request that y'all be considerate of other people. And don't "over-answer" with advice that is premature.
Morgan Bilbo, new to DCC

--
... Tom

Gandy Dancer

Once again - an excellent post.

On May 20, 2019, at 9:51 AM, PennsyNut <pennsynut@...> wrote:

I want to address a problem I see. Not specifically this forum. But when someone asks a question, has a problem, etc. Why do the responses all seem to be: 1> over a beginners head. 2> involve spending money. 3> and sometimes confuse the original requestor. I see this a lot. A man asks about CV's and he gets told to buy a PR4 or it's equivalent to get JMRI and JAVA. Yes, that's good advice, but that isn't what the requester asked. And since I'm guessing that most requester's are novices or beginners, why overload them with future advice. I did respond about CV's in a K.I.S.S. manner because that's what I thought the original request was for. Not to go buy more. A DC402 is NOT required. A PR4 is NOT required. The simple Zephyr or whatever will suffice until the beginner/novice/requester get his/her feet wet. After a bit of experiment, and a little more confidence, he/she can then decide on Decoder Pro or whatever. Sorry for this if it offends anyone. I do not intend to do that. I only request that y'all be considerate of other people. And don't "over-answer" with advice that is premature.
Morgan Bilbo, new to DCC

Gandy Dancer

I think they are trying to show off - how superior they are.  They really turn off the novice.

On May 20, 2019, at 10:38 AM, george hohon3 <Hohon3@...> wrote:

Spot on comments. I too am amazed at how many responses don't even address the requestor's question or inquiry.  It's like they didn't even read the post, or if they did, they just want show their level of ignorance.

On May 20, 2019, at 9:51 AM, PennsyNut <pennsynut@...> wrote:

I want to address a problem I see. Not specifically this forum. But when someone asks a question, has a problem, etc. Why do the responses all seem to be: 1> over a beginners head. 2> involve spending money. 3> and sometimes confuse the original requestor. I see this a lot. A man asks about CV's and he gets told to buy a PR4 or it's equivalent to get JMRI and JAVA. Yes, that's good advice, but that isn't what the requester asked. And since I'm guessing that most requester's are novices or beginners, why overload them with future advice. I did respond about CV's in a K.I.S.S. manner because that's what I thought the original request was for. Not to go buy more. A DC402 is NOT required. A PR4 is NOT required. The simple Zephyr or whatever will suffice until the beginner/novice/requester get his/her feet wet. After a bit of experiment, and a little more confidence, he/she can then decide on Decoder Pro or whatever. Sorry for this if it offends anyone. I do not intend to do that. I only request that y'all be considerate of other people. And don't "over-answer" with advice that is premature.
Morgan Bilbo, new to DCC

Richard Gagnon <richg_1998@...>

When I started, I used the KISS method. I followed the instructions in my NCE power cab manual and decoder CV listing. Used Google for any questions. No need for JMRI or asking questions in forums. Any issues, reset decoder.

Rich

On Monday, May 20, 2019, 2:44 PM, Tom O'Hara <tomohara5@...> wrote:

I'm afraid that we are getting close to causing grief here, but there is a significant point to be made. Programming can be done easily with the basic DCC system. There is no need for hexadecimal or bits. It can be done with standard base-ten numbers. As I said previously, I have done this on three different systems. (And I do comprehend hex.)

Later, if he wants to add Decoder Pro, it will still be there. I don't want to argue the pros and cons of approaching the programming by different methods. That's starting to sound like the start of a war. But is IS easy to program with a command station and a throttle. I do it all the time, and I do have Decoder Pro available for times when I want to use it.

.....Tom

On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 1:24 PM David Klemm <davidklemm7511@...> wrote:
Morgan

How is telling a person something that requires an understanding of hexadecimal and bits simpler?  Obviously he didn’t know what he didn’t know but giving advice on a solution that allows the use of plain English versus bits is a simpler solution.  Sure the person could have done a better job of leading the person with the question to that conclusion by showing what it means to have to program the ‘old’ fashioned way.

David Klemm
Xs Max

From: w4dccqa@groups.io <w4dccqa@groups.io> on behalf of PennsyNut <pennsynut@...>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2019 11:52
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: [w4dccqa] K.I.S.S.

I want to address a problem I see. Not specifically this forum. But when someone asks a question, has a problem, etc. Why do the responses all seem to be: 1> over a beginners head. 2> involve spending money. 3> and sometimes confuse the original requestor. I see this a lot. A man asks about CV's and he gets told to buy a PR4 or it's equivalent to get JMRI and JAVA. Yes, that's good advice, but that isn't what the requester asked. And since I'm guessing that most requester's are novices or beginners, why overload them with future advice. I did respond about CV's in a K.I.S.S. manner because that's what I thought the original request was for. Not to go buy more. A DC402 is NOT required. A PR4 is NOT required. The simple Zephyr or whatever will suffice until the beginner/novice/requester get his/her feet wet. After a bit of experiment, and a little more confidence, he/she can then decide on Decoder Pro or whatever. Sorry for this if it offends anyone. I do not intend to do that. I only request that y'all be considerate of other people. And don't "over-answer" with advice that is premature.
Morgan Bilbo, new to DCC

--
... Tom

Tom O'Hara

I'm afraid that we are getting close to causing grief here, but there is a significant point to be made. Programming can be done easily with the basic DCC system. There is no need for hexadecimal or bits. It can be done with standard base-ten numbers. As I said previously, I have done this on three different systems. (And I do comprehend hex.)

Later, if he wants to add Decoder Pro, it will still be there. I don't want to argue the pros and cons of approaching the programming by different methods. That's starting to sound like the start of a war. But is IS easy to program with a command station and a throttle. I do it all the time, and I do have Decoder Pro available for times when I want to use it.

.....Tom

On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 1:24 PM David Klemm <davidklemm7511@...> wrote:
Morgan

How is telling a person something that requires an understanding of hexadecimal and bits simpler?  Obviously he didn’t know what he didn’t know but giving advice on a solution that allows the use of plain English versus bits is a simpler solution.  Sure the person could have done a better job of leading the person with the question to that conclusion by showing what it means to have to program the ‘old’ fashioned way.

David Klemm
Xs Max

From: w4dccqa@groups.io <w4dccqa@groups.io> on behalf of PennsyNut <pennsynut@...>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2019 11:52
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: [w4dccqa] K.I.S.S.

I want to address a problem I see. Not specifically this forum. But when someone asks a question, has a problem, etc. Why do the responses all seem to be: 1> over a beginners head. 2> involve spending money. 3> and sometimes confuse the original requestor. I see this a lot. A man asks about CV's and he gets told to buy a PR4 or it's equivalent to get JMRI and JAVA. Yes, that's good advice, but that isn't what the requester asked. And since I'm guessing that most requester's are novices or beginners, why overload them with future advice. I did respond about CV's in a K.I.S.S. manner because that's what I thought the original request was for. Not to go buy more. A DC402 is NOT required. A PR4 is NOT required. The simple Zephyr or whatever will suffice until the beginner/novice/requester get his/her feet wet. After a bit of experiment, and a little more confidence, he/she can then decide on Decoder Pro or whatever. Sorry for this if it offends anyone. I do not intend to do that. I only request that y'all be considerate of other people. And don't "over-answer" with advice that is premature.
Morgan Bilbo, new to DCC

--
... Tom

David Klemm

Morgan

How is telling a person something that requires an understanding of hexadecimal and bits simpler?  Obviously he didn’t know what he didn’t know but giving advice on a solution that allows the use of plain English versus bits is a simpler solution.  Sure the person could have done a better job of leading the person with the question to that conclusion by showing what it means to have to program the ‘old’ fashioned way.

David Klemm
Xs Max

From: w4dccqa@groups.io <w4dccqa@groups.io> on behalf of PennsyNut <pennsynut@...>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2019 11:52
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: [w4dccqa] K.I.S.S.

I want to address a problem I see. Not specifically this forum. But when someone asks a question, has a problem, etc. Why do the responses all seem to be: 1> over a beginners head. 2> involve spending money. 3> and sometimes confuse the original requestor. I see this a lot. A man asks about CV's and he gets told to buy a PR4 or it's equivalent to get JMRI and JAVA. Yes, that's good advice, but that isn't what the requester asked. And since I'm guessing that most requester's are novices or beginners, why overload them with future advice. I did respond about CV's in a K.I.S.S. manner because that's what I thought the original request was for. Not to go buy more. A DC402 is NOT required. A PR4 is NOT required. The simple Zephyr or whatever will suffice until the beginner/novice/requester get his/her feet wet. After a bit of experiment, and a little more confidence, he/she can then decide on Decoder Pro or whatever. Sorry for this if it offends anyone. I do not intend to do that. I only request that y'all be considerate of other people. And don't "over-answer" with advice that is premature.
Morgan Bilbo, new to DCC

george hohon3

Spot on comments. I too am amazed at how many responses don't even address the requestor's question or inquiry.  It's like they didn't even read the post, or if they did, they just want show their level of ignorance.

On May 20, 2019, at 9:51 AM, PennsyNut <pennsynut@...> wrote:

I want to address a problem I see. Not specifically this forum. But when someone asks a question, has a problem, etc. Why do the responses all seem to be: 1> over a beginners head. 2> involve spending money. 3> and sometimes confuse the original requestor. I see this a lot. A man asks about CV's and he gets told to buy a PR4 or it's equivalent to get JMRI and JAVA. Yes, that's good advice, but that isn't what the requester asked. And since I'm guessing that most requester's are novices or beginners, why overload them with future advice. I did respond about CV's in a K.I.S.S. manner because that's what I thought the original request was for. Not to go buy more. A DC402 is NOT required. A PR4 is NOT required. The simple Zephyr or whatever will suffice until the beginner/novice/requester get his/her feet wet. After a bit of experiment, and a little more confidence, he/she can then decide on Decoder Pro or whatever. Sorry for this if it offends anyone. I do not intend to do that. I only request that y'all be considerate of other people. And don't "over-answer" with advice that is premature.