Topics

Forgive my ignorance! Am I creating several reverse loops on my proposed layout?

David McBrayer
 

Tom,
The images were cut off by what seems to be a policy of Groups.io. Don’t feel bad about this, you’re not the first to be bitten. And, don’t forget we all started at zero at sometime.

Dave McBrayer
Castro Valley, CA

Tom G.
 

Update - fun part coming. I’m sure I’ll need some of your expertise folks! Hopefully you can see these images. 





Thanks.
Tom

On Mar 13, 2019, at 9:56 PM, Don Vollrath <donevol43@...> wrote:

As updated there are no reversing loops except for the turntable itself.
DonV 

Carl
 

Hello Don:

Cool! That works too.

I don't need a reverser on my turntable, I'm 3 rail "O" gauge!

One circuit is the gear motor, the other is the Lazy Susan bearing.

Carl.

On 3/14/2019 9:27 AM, john wrote:
Inside the pit there is a circle of track. It consists of two almost semi-circles with two small insulated sections, the size of the bridge,  opposite each other, in an unused area. 
Each semi is powered as opposite rails on the feed track, when the table rotates each semi powers each pickup at either end, it crosses the dead zone, and reverses as it reaches the powered rails. 
jd
On Thursday, March 14, 2019, 08:58:16 AM EDT, Don Vollrath <donevol43@...> wrote:


Turntables need a reverser only when they actually turn the loco around to head in the other direction.



Virus-free. www.avast.com

john
 

Inside the pit there is a circle of track. It consists of two almost semi-circles with two small insulated sections, the size of the bridge,  opposite each other, in an unused area. 
Each semi is powered as opposite rails on the feed track, when the table rotates each semi powers each pickup at either end, it crosses the dead zone, and reverses as it reaches the powered rails. 
jd

On Thursday, March 14, 2019, 08:58:16 AM EDT, Don Vollrath <donevol43@...> wrote:


Turntables need a reverser only when they actually turn the loco around to head in the other direction.


Don Vollrath
 

Turntables need a reverser only when they actually turn the loco around to head in the other direction.

Tom G.
 

Hi Don,

Are the turntables always in need of an auto reverser by default?

Thanks,
Tom




-----Original Message-----
From: Don Vollrath <donevol43@...>
To: w4dccqa <w4dccqa@groups.io>
Sent: Wed, Mar 13, 2019 9:57 pm
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] Forgive my ignorance! Am I creating several reverse loops on my proposed layout?

As updated there are no reversing loops except for the turntable itself.
DonV 

Don Vollrath
 

As updated there are no reversing loops except for the turntable itself.
DonV 

Mark Cartwright
 

Better....
Tom,

Run some of the Green Track...while also making an attempt to run the Roundtable.
On the way to doing this...
Consider some Structures and Scenery as well as spacing.
I expect a few more epiphanies along the way.
Mark

whmvd
 

HiTom,

You won't regret those changes. That's a lot more reasonable while still giving you lots of options. Like it!
Wouter


On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 at 03:31, Tom G. via Groups.Io <tjg81296=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Made a few updates. Thanks all for the advice.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oqbriyxcawabj5t/SCARM%20-%20playroomScarm_v30.pdf?dl=0

Tom G.
 

Don Vollrath
 

Wouter, I'm assuming that there are no crossover attachments between tracks except where there is an indicated turnout. [Exception - there is a 30 degree X in the tracks near the turntable.] All other 'intersections' in the sketch are at different vertical levels with no actual connections between tracks. I don't see any path selections that actually reverse the direction of train travel except for that one loop around the roundhouse. Putting insulating joiners or gaps at the three tracks leading upwards from that loop isolates them from the actual reversing loop. Complete the isolation of the loop at the first turnout going towards upper right.

DonV

whmvd
 

Don,

There's a lot of peering involved at detail really too small to properly see everything, but I'm quite convinced there's a reversing section on the richt-hand side as well. The small single-track piece between the two turnouts creates a nice short as it is.

I've only seen version 1 of the left hand side, and apart from the red part and the turntable, there was another reversing section involving most of the yard. Either that, or I fell into the too-little-detail trap, or in V2 it was changed.

Wouter

Wouter


On Tue, 5 Mar 2019 at 02:59, Don Vollrath <donevol43@...> wrote:
Tom,
Although there is a lot of loopy track that yields the appearance of bi-directional travel, I see only one actual polarity reversing problem section... Plus the turntable itself. It is the 'inside' loop of Red track running around the roundhouse near bottom left of the drawing. Easily solved with an auto-reverser with double isolating gaps at 1) the last turnout leading into the red loop around the roundhouse, and 2) each of the 2 Red staging tracks to the left of the roundhouse and the connecting Blue return line toward the top of the layout. Gap both rails at the frog end of those respective turnouts and wire that whole loop, including those 2 turnouts, through an auto-reverser. Be careful to ensure that you wire up all other double-track areas using the same Right-Left / North-South polarity convention so as to avoid polarity shorting issues at places where there are cross-overs despite which direction the trains will actually be moving. [With DCC forward is always forward.] If there is another path to actually cause a train to reverse directions on a previously traveled section, I don't see it..
However, I agree with Mark C. that the layout looks to be very tight with way too many short radius curves and steep grades.

DonV 

Don Vollrath
 

Tom,
Although there is a lot of loopy track that yields the appearance of bi-directional travel, I see only one actual polarity reversing problem section... Plus the turntable itself. It is the 'inside' loop of Red track running around the roundhouse near bottom left of the drawing. Easily solved with an auto-reverser with double isolating gaps at 1) the last turnout leading into the red loop around the roundhouse, and 2) each of the 2 Red staging tracks to the left of the roundhouse and the connecting Blue return line toward the top of the layout. Gap both rails at the frog end of those respective turnouts and wire that whole loop, including those 2 turnouts, through an auto-reverser. Be careful to ensure that you wire up all other double-track areas using the same Right-Left / North-South polarity convention so as to avoid polarity shorting issues at places where there are cross-overs despite which direction the trains will actually be moving. [With DCC forward is always forward.] If there is another path to actually cause a train to reverse directions on a previously traveled section, I don't see it..
However, I agree with Mark C. that the layout looks to be very tight with way too many short radius curves and steep grades.

DonV 

Tom G.
 

Brian,

I’m missing your point. 

Thanks.
Tom

On Mar 4, 2019, at 6:45 AM, Brian Lewis <brian@...> wrote:

There is certainly a better way. It called 'Attachments'.......

I can scarcely believe that, in 2019, there are still elists  that do not allow them. Why is that pray?

On 04/03/2019 09:34, whmvd wrote:

--

Regards and thanks

 

Brian Lewis

Brian Lewis
 

There is certainly a better way. It called 'Attachments'.......

I can scarcely believe that, in 2019, there are still elists  that do not allow them. Why is that pray?

On 04/03/2019 09:34, whmvd wrote:

--

Regards and thanks

 

Brian Lewis

Tom G.
 

Mark/Tom/Wouter,

I cannot thank you guys enough for your input. I agree with Mark, I'm trying to fit as much in here as possible and will end up suffering, It's easier to add than take away later and have money tossed for parts I don't need. I'm concerned at the level of technical difficulty in operations as well. I did my best to keep my radius above 11" using only two curves at 11" with the majority in 13 3/4" and 12 3/8". Based on what you said, should I be steering away from Kato? I looked at the links you sent and man, my space shrunk by a lot. If I need 28" radius how does Kato even stay in business? I thought I was doing well with my curves. I'd like to know more but I don't want to flood everyone with emails since the group gets them all.

I am sharing the track plan made with Scarm ( if it makes it easier to see the layout) My thoughts on Scarm and the layout is I will make adjustments as I go along the build process. 

I changed the right side to more of an oval helix like a train around a mountain.

Scarm Layout:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/q78e8nhkd63t3tn/GradyPlayroomScarm_v25.scarm?dl=0

Yard:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qp7f0vm1jfcsxpi/TomG_W4DCCQA_Layout_Yard_LeftSideV25.jpg?dl=0

Center Section:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xx6co6a1gv80g90/TomG_W4DCCQA_Layout_CenterV25.jpg?dl=0

Mountain/Right Side Section:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/alfeqd96i6z18pv/TomG_W4DCCQA_Layout_RightSideMountainV25.jpg?dl=0

3D Rendering of Layout:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1opkf41roi55vjx/TomG_W4DCCQA_Layout_3D.jpg?dl=0

Carl
 

Hi Brian:

I'm not a member of the group, but they always have a busy room at the National Convention. Since my layout is finished, it isn't an interest to me. I used John Armstrong's suggestions in my planning, 20 years ago!! How time flies. If you join the group they may have more options for help??

The design elements I did use were:

Around the walls plan. Stair way up into the center for people, so no duck under.

Double track main line around the room three times.

Main Yard on one wall and three towns to switch on the other walls.

Hidden in a mountain two reversing loops where the track drops, so one loop over the mains, and one under.

During operating sessions the layout is run as a dog bone, so the main is three times clock wise and then three times counter clock wise.

For visitor displays I can run two trains on loops.

40% of the main is in tunnels, so it makes the runs appear longer.

Carl.

On 3/4/2019 8:28 AM, Brian Eiland wrote:

Plus NMRA has a special interest group that plans layouts, you might look them up.

http://www.ldsig.org/

Carl.

************************************************
I looked up this site that you quoted, and I didn't detect that there was 'active help' in designing a new track plan. And it appeared as though some of the material is very dated (I saw one reference to 2006).

One of the reasons I was drawn to this conversation is that I am building a new double deck layout,...and I'm new to DCC,....and I am challenged by the electrical wiring. So I am definitely going to need help on wiring, and particularly reverse loops.

Brian

Virus-free. www.avast.com

Brian Eiland
 

Plus NMRA has a special interest group that plans layouts, you might look them up.

http://www.ldsig.org/

Carl.

************************************************
I looked up this site that you quoted, and I didn't detect that there was 'active help' in designing a new track plan. And it appeared as though some of the material is very dated (I saw one reference to 2006).

One of the reasons I was drawn to this conversation is that I am building a new double deck layout,...and I'm new to DCC,....and I am challenged by the electrical wiring. So I am definitely going to need help on wiring, and particularly reverse loops.

Brian

Mark Cartwright
 

Tom....

Three Suggestions as you are new to DCC and perhaps N Scale Unitrack
(but for now...I will only burden you with one)
1. Kato Unitrack (computer generated) plans can be a bit deceptive as to actual performance and even given spacing.
 Looking at your basic design, I believe you will be running short 4 Wheel Switchers and short trains of 5-7 cars.
That is not Passenger Trains of ABBA consists with upwards of 17-21 cars or even short to medium steam locomotives.
And in the retrospect...
That is after you have created this plan for actual use....
>>> You maybe sorry.
Every switch, every tight curve, every reverse loop and every graduation of track into an ever increasing percentage of grade is just looking for trouble.
Plus when ever possible Avoid S Curves or those transitions which even suggest such a thing.
So..
>>>  My first suggestion is to ONLY run the outside single track first. <<<
That is the Green Line.
This too will change as you test it and run it with your preferred locomotive and train length.
Once you have it up and running....
Step back and think again.....
FIRST = Find Success !
============================
There is so much more to learn and un-learn.
I would really like to see you SURVIVE your first layout.
:)) Mark

Consider this Man's Journey through N Scale as inspiration to your own efforts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUTS7qXQERX8n9x8dgIFxI0w&time_continue=373&v=DXEMFjB-u00

One more strong suggestion...
Share with us...Which of the many or few perhaps just one N Scale Locomotive you are considering operating upon your layout.
Not everything in N Scale will operate well even on 19 inch curves; nor through #6 Kato Switches.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/267707.aspx

And Yes, Manufacturers Lie; while most Train Store Clerks don't actually have an Operational N Scale Layout at Home.
They are simply doing what the Economics of Today demand and are throwing a wider loop to bring in a larger herd.
With that said....I tend to be a Maverick and test everything for and upon my layout.
My given radius for my N Scale Layout is currently 28 to 71 inches and includes mostly Parabolic Curves...Not 90 Degree Curves.

whmvd
 

Hi Tom,

It *IS* a lot clearer, thanks!

So far, after looking for about 5 minutes, I spotted four reversing sections, but I haven't paid enough attention yet to what's going on top right. There might well be a fifth lurking there. Truth is, I'm getting a bit dizzy! :-)

Wouter


On Mon, 4 Mar 2019 at 02:02, Tom G. via Groups.Io <tjg81296=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Tom,

Hopefully this is clearer. The main concern is that I have the yard approachable from both sides. Would that be considered a reverse loop even if I insulate the rail joiners at the switches and bus power on both sides individually?

Am I incorrectly looking at the wiring?

I color coded to make it clearer. I know, it's not perfect but you can differentiate the lines a bit more.

I took a snip of each section Left, Center and Right. Links below:
If there's  a better way for all to view please let me know!
Thank you!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ur1n6s459r2safj/TomG_W4DCCQA_LayoutYard_LeftSide.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d9c8lb1xbh06kxi/TomG_W4DCCQA_LayoutCenter.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/84vf6h3t4edq9ld/TomG_W4DCCQA_LayoutMountain_RightSide.jpg?dl=0