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Power for Z-Scale Decoders
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Ric Zimmerman <zimmermane@...>
I am in the process of building a DCC test track for our local NMRA division. Being a HO Scale modeler, I have come across an issue I am nor sure about. Z-scale motors are run on 9 VDC while N-Scale and HO are run on 12 VDC power. When we apply DCC electronics to them, what is the power output?
I don't one want to burn out someone’s Z-scale DCC decoder by applying the wrong voltage to the unit. Does my DCC system (MRCProdigy Express) adjust the power output, or the fact that DCC uses square wave alternating current change the whole paradigm? MRC has suggested that it should not make a difference and that their system will run all scales, but I would like a second opinion that I can understand. -- RicZ
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Don Vollrath
I would certainly want to investigate further on what voltage is appropriate for Z scale locos before assuming that one can simply apply 12-14 volts from the typical N/HO DCC command station or booster. I've never seen a Z scale loco running on DCC track power. It's not necessarily the 'power' but potentially the repetitive Voltage peaks that do the damage. Find a manufacturer of DCC decoders that are used for Z scale and see what their ratings and limitations are. Yes, you can simply set the DCC 'throttle' to a lower speed step to reduce the average voltage and speed of the loco motor. But this does not reduce the peak voltage applied to the decoder from the track or to the motor by PWM from the normal 12-14 track voltage used for N or HO scales.
DonV
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Richard Gagnon <richg_1998@...>
I have run DZ125 deciders on my NCE Poweer Cab many times. The DCC voltage is 13.6 vac. Scope and meter.
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On Tuesday, February 12, 2019, 6:03 PM, Ric Zimmerman <zimmermane@...> wrote:
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Jay <jayfmn@...>
Hi!
Z Scale recommended voltage should be 9V. 12V is pushing the upper limit of the true Z Scale decoders in Z Scale engines. The UP6Z is recommended by Digitrax for operating Z scale. Jay
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Richard Gagnon <richg_1998@...>
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On Tuesday, February 12, 2019, 11:25 PM, Jay <jayfmn@q.com> wrote:
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Mark Cartwright <marcdecapri@...>
Ric Z
Me too ? When I began to consider which of my several DCC Controllers was a Keeper for a future Z Scale Coffee Table Layout...I have yet to decide. Yes, Z Scale is 9 volts. But my ESU ECoS is in excess of 15 volts. Works great for N Scale... An I may keep my Digitrax Chief since the local HO Clubs use this system As for the rest ? I do not know. MRC Prodigy and Prodigy 2, Digitrax Zephyr, Bachmann Dynamis, ESU Navigator,? Again ...I do not know. ===== I have considered putting on resistors to the end of my DCC Controller Leads, just as it reaches the track. Instead ? I gave up (at least for now). I have for now far too many distraction in my daily life to consider yet a 4th scale. Let me know what you figure out Please. :)) Mark
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Mark Cartwright <marcdecapri@...>
One other aspect to such a Question.......
And I am sorry for I don't want to put a too fine a point on it.... However... After reviewing City Permits and work kind of sort of accomplished, inspected and approved by my City's Building Department....of nearly 80 yeas and further with 4 very recent Home Inspections. When it comes to Electricity ? >>> Don't even trust PG&E. ========= With that said.... There is an Old Cherokee Saying about barking up the wrong tree. or .... No, I don't believe you can get there from here. http://z-scaletrains.com/using-correct-controller-z-scale/ Looks to me as if ...Rokuhan and Marlin maybe the answer. Meaning ? Pretty much NOT anything you are gonna find at your American Train Store... Well perhaps ... https://www.yelp.com/biz/ac-euro-trains-stockton-2 Okay these people may actually know. :)) Mark
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Don Vollrath
Ric and others... I stand corrected. Digitrax DZ125/6 is for Z and other scales. They give no specific voltage limits on the spec sheet but Digitrax suggests cutting the DCC voltage down when applied to Z scale tracks with their UP6Z. That may be an option to add to your text apparatus for the Z-scale track.
See http://www.digitrax.com/static/apps/products/universal-panel-ir-radio-receivers/up6z/documents/UP6Z_opt.pdf. DonV
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Richard Gagnon <richg_1998@...>
Yes. I saw 12.3 volt PWM pulses out of the orange and grey decoder leads with my Scope. Rich Failure is not an option. it comes bundled with Windows.
On Wednesday, February 13, 2019, 11:04:15 AM EST, Don Vollrath <donevol43@...> wrote:
Ric and others... I stand corrected. Digitrax DZ125/6 is for Z and other scales. They give no specific voltage limits on the spec sheet but Digitrax suggests cutting the DCC voltage down when applied to Z scale tracks with their UP6Z. That may be an option to add to your text apparatus for the Z-scale track. See http://www.digitrax.com/static/apps/products/universal-panel-ir-radio-receivers/up6z/documents/UP6Z_opt.pdf. DonV
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Jay <jayfmn@...>
Hi!
I am using a Digitrax DCS100 on my Z Scale layout. Per the Digitrax recommendation, it has a UP6Z between it & the track. The track is hooked to the 4v output, putting the track at about 9v. Perfect for Z Scale. All of my decoders are Digitrax DZ123Z0 decoders. Jay
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Don Vollrath
Hmmm. Makes me wonder what;s inside the UP6Z box. there are plenty of misc connectors but according to the sales info no real need for a power supply. Anyone ever open the box? Could be just a bunch of 4 amp rated silicon diodes connected in series parallel to give a relatively fix 4-5 volt drop with either polarity.
DonV
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Jay <jayfmn@...>
Hi Don,
Inside of the UP6Z it appears to have 3 resistor arrays. With a Capacitor & a Fusible link to track output. That & 6 Loconet ports. Jay
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Mark Gurries
With respect to the USA Z scale track voltage and Z scale decoder voltage ratings are not directly related. The voltage rating of the DCC electronics are typically the same as N and HO. 30V is common standard of electronic parts used. The voltage rating of the power devices used to drive the motor does not define the physical size of the parts. The NMRA does not define specific voltage for specific scales. They have one standard for all scales: 12V. Does not change with DCC. The purpose of having a specific track voltage as a standard is for reliability purposes for both the motor and lamps. DCC track voltage typically is a bit higher than the DC track voltage because of voltage losses inside the DCC decoder. The goal is to get 12V at the motor terminals, the same motor operating condition under DC without a decoder.
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Hello Mark: I've converted Lionel three rail locomotives and the 12 volt limit is a problem. Lionel and MTH locomotives are wired for 18 volts and some barely move at 12 volt. I'm not quite willing to change to 12 volt motors. Carl. On 2/18/2019 1:18 PM, Mark Gurries
wrote:
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whmvd
Mark, Try G-Scale at 12V. That's virtually a non-starter! Wouter
On Mon, 18 Feb 2019 at 18:18, Mark Gurries <gurriesm@...> wrote:
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Al Silverstein
A little history here might help clear up the DCC voltage to the rails
issues on several different levels.
At one point in time many years ago the NMRA Standards and Recommended
Practices did include voltage to the rail ratings for the scales of N, HO, O/S,
and G. Over the last 10-15 years the NMRA has modified and/or deleted many
Standards and Recommended Practices. The DCC Standards and Recommended Practices
are a perfect example. Several of the DCC Standards have been modified and most
of the Recommended Practices have been deleted. Unless you know where to look
finding the older Standards and Recommended Practices are very difficult. I have
since DCC was first introduced back in 1994 tried to keep up with any and all
information dealing with DCC. It has not always been an easy task. I have a
complete set of the DCC Standards and Recommended Practices as they were back in
2002.
In the latest Electrical Standard S-9.1 (Version 2006), on page 3, there
are four charts which indicated the various voltages of the different scales for
DCC. If you are curious about the voltages please follow this link:
Now lets take a minute to look at the DCC Decoders. If one were take a
close look one would find that any DCC decoder is supposed to accept an input
range anywhere from about 12 volts to 22 volts. This holds true for most non
sound mobile decoders. Sound decoders in general cannot handle voltages above, I
believe, about 18 volts. This is a component issue dealing with sound chips. But
all things being equal it is the motor in the scale that determines what voltage
is needed on the rails.
Now as for the voltage output to the rails the issue deals with the market
place. HO has been the most popular scale for at least 30-40 years and HO
layouts have a history of using 0-12 volts DC for operation. With HO being by
far the most popular scale the manufacturers lean in the direction of HO for
most of their support. Just look at Walthers. Walthers today only produces two
general catalogs: O and HO-N-Z. It was only a couple of years ago that Walthers
produced three catalogs: O, HO, and N/Z. The number of products in HO in their
HO-N-Z catalog is much larger than their N scale products which is much larger
than their Z scale products.
DCC manufacturers are in the business of making a profit and thus they
place their major support to the market with the greatest potential for profit
which is the HO market. Thus most of the DCC command systems are HO scale based
when it comes to voltage to the rails. There is a general drop of about 1.4-1.8
volts through a decoder thus in order to get the 12 volts to the motor the
voltage on the rails must be at least 13.8 volts.
It is easily understandable why most of the DCC command system
manufacturers have only one voltage to the rails output and that is most of the
purchasers of their command stations are HO scale modelers. Besides N and Z
being much smaller markets when it comes to model railroading note that N and Z
scale decoders are more expensive because the parts need to be smaller and also
note that it is much more difficult to install a decoder in a N and Z scale
model railroad engine. I have a HO 0-4-0 yard switcher that is over 35 years old
and it was easy to install a N scale decoder in it once I isolated the motor
from the frame. It appears to me that over the last several years there has been
a general drop in the number of model railroaders in the scales of O/S and
above.
The only DCC manufacturer that I am acquainted with that provides easy to
adjust voltage to the rails is Digitrax. All of their command stations with the
exception of the Zephyr have an external voltage to the rails adjustment switch
for N-HO-O/G with the output voltage dependent upon the command station power
source. The current PS615 is great for HO and below while the PS2012e can easily
handle all scales to include the scales above HO. Digitrax a couple of years ago
added to their product line the UP6Z which can easily adjust the voltage to the
rails for Z scale operation to about 8 volts.
The above paragraph is not intended to indicate that Digitrax is any better
than any other DCC command system but only that the Digitrax hardware is geared
to handle a wider variety of model railroading scales. Each DCC command system
manufacturer has chosen which market it wants to support. When choosing a DCC
command station or any other DCC related product one must make the decision that
best fits his, or her, situation. I operate on several different layouts from
time to time and I enjoy every moment no matter what the scale or which command
system is being used.
The one aspect of DCC that I appreciate the most is the ability to move
with my engine without the need of having to keep track of the rail power
routing switches.
Al Silverstein
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David Heine
The Zimo MX10 system has an adjustable track voltage of 10 - 24 V, in 0.2 V increments. The overcurrent setpoint of the main output is also adjustable from 1 - 12 A, in 0.1 A increments. But it is not inexpensive, and if you want the full output you need a big power supply. Factory defaults are typical for HO, 16 V and 5 A. But it can be adjusted from Z to G. Dave Heine Easton, PA
On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 8:03 AM Al Silverstein <alsilverstein@...> wrote:
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Al Silverstein
Dave,
It is nice to know there is at least one other DCC command system
manufacturer that offers a command station with adjustable voltage to the track
that covers a wide range of scales. Your comment about about not inexpensive is
a bit under stated. After a very quick search of the internet I found only one
retailer in North America (Streamlined Backshop www.sbs4dcc.com) and discounted the price tag
is still $1280.
Al
From:
David Heine
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 1:29 PM
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] Power for Z-Scale Decoders The Zimo MX10 system has an adjustable track voltage of 10 - 24 V, in 0.2 V
increments. The overcurrent setpoint of the main output is also adjustable from
1 - 12 A, in 0.1 A increments. But it is not inexpensive, and if you want the
full output you need a big power supply. Factory defaults are typical for HO, 16
V and 5 A. But it can be adjusted from Z to G.
Dave Heine
Easton, PA On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 8:03 AM Al Silverstein
<alsilverstein@...> wrote:
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Jay <jayfmn@...>
Hi!
If you can get a Digitrax DCS100 or DB150, they also have a voltage adjustment potentiometer. I was able to drive my DSC100 down to 10v track voltage in N Scale setting. Jay
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Mark Cartwright <marcdecapri@...>
Al - EXCELLENT !
I am by nature a Historian, having traced out my own American History back to the 1600's. So it simply makes sense to me to be sitting right next to a Bound Book of The Model Railroader 1934 Yes, Vol 1 No. 1 It's nearly amazing to me; to begin to understand how very well informed and sophisticated this hobby was in 1934. How old is our hobby ? There was soon to be an article on a Layout which had already been in operation since 1913. Imagine if you will standing in a basement of a 1908 house with such an understanding....Cause I have. ===== Imagine further.... The very beginnings of the NMRA ....What did these merry band of original Model Railroaders propose, even upon their very first meetings ? > Standards And yes one of the first standards put forth? > Voltage Each to it's own Scale and NOT all the same. Was it easy to agree...Well not right off...but eventually groups of like minded model railroaders began to set standards. ====== However ? When I learn that into the 21st Century, standards were being dropped? I refer back to an open letter from John Allen which informs us of the same phenomenon circa 1967. Two years before I began N Scale and Model Railroading once again. ======= I do a lot of Begin Agains.... So without the use of the NMRA or the Walthers/Kalmbach Cartel...I have recreated my own standards. Many of which are based on Modern BNSF Specifications and those found in the annals of the The Model Railroader between 1934 and 1941. NMRA ? Well not lately. For the most part I used NMRA Standards to 1952 and before.... Such as the use of Parabolic Curves.... https://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/d3b3.pdf 1952? The year before I was even born. ======= So what about Electronics and DCC....? Euclid's First Common Notion..... Those things which are equal to the same things are then equal to each other. Well Duh Me ? Z scale is NOT equal to O scale anymore than it is to HO or N. Anymore than a 20 amp circuit in a house should be wired with 14 gauge wire; and excuse me for saying.... A 50 amp circuit breaker should not be supplied with 10 Gauge Aluminum Wire and the main panel only grounded to the Gas Meter. A thing like that could ruin your whole day. So... BEFORE you plug in that expensive $895 ESU ECoS DCC Controller...You better damn well be assured it is of the proper voltage/amps is grounded and IN Phase. And then as night follows the day... I am Not Hooking up my $125 LokSound Sound Decoders to just any old DCC Controller. ============================================================================== But I digress...... If you can possibly take GREED out of the equation.....and for the most part get thrown out of the Train Store.... Becoming Bonafide with your own standards.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqtz7B-Og6A The best thing I ever did was get hit by a Train. Well over 90% of my Layouts Needs have been purchased second hand via previously constructed but mostly LNIB supplies from defunct layouts. At a percentage to MSRP, between 10 and 23%. Yes 75+% off. Meaning..... For the most part I stay out of Train Stores. ===== So to some it all up.... With over a dozen different DCC Controllers....? Oops! None of them are particularly suited to Z Scale. ===== My Coffee Table Layout, will mostly be a short steam N Scale layout with 4-4-0's and 2-6-0's with the Motor decoder in the California Dispatch car behind the tender, then the sound decoder in the next box car with the speaker in the third boxcar. Ii will employ either my Bachmann Dynamis or ESU Navigator to such a task. Thank you all in helping me to make this determination. :)) Mark At age 65 and in need of new glasses.... That is unless I find a Zimo MX-10 Z Scale DCC Controller at 10% to the MSRP $.
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