Topics

Scratch built diamonds

Lee Hanna
 

All, I am referencing David Klemm's scratch built diamonds (http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm) he made for his DCC layout.


I fully understand  his diagram, but on our club layout the two tracks that cross are on different power districts.  Will this be a problem in hooking up an auto reverse circuit or a frog juicer?


Thanks much in advance.

Lee


David Klemm
 

Lee,

I had that as an option my module as well.  I controlled it underneath by the way I hooked up the buss via a terminal strip. 

David Klemm

On Apr 10, 2016, at 20:31, lee.hanna60@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 

All, I am referencing David Klemm's scratch built diamonds (http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm) he made for his DCC layout.


I fully understand  his diagram, but on our club layout the two tracks that cross are on different power districts.  Will this be a problem in hooking up an auto reverse circuit or a frog juicer?


Thanks much in advance.

Lee


Paul O
 

Lee, why not build your crossover with isolated corners where opposite rails intersect.

No need for a reverser or juicer. No problem with power districts.

Look at the design of an Atlas crossover: http://www.atlasrr.com/Images/Track/Trackphotos/0176.JPG

 

Paul O

 

Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 8:20 PM
All, I am referencing David Klemm's scratch built diamonds (http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm) he made for his DCC layout.

I fully understand  his diagram, but on our club layout the two tracks that cross are on different power districts.  Will this be a problem in hooking up an auto reverse circuit or a frog juicer?

Thanks much in advance.

Lee

Bill Aulicino
 

Forgive me folks but that’s not a crossover...that’s a crossing. A crossover requires two parallel tracks and two
turnouts. By the way Peco makes much nicer crossings.
Bill Aulicino
 

Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 10:46 PM
Subject: RE: [WiringForDCC] Scratch built diamonds
 
 

Lee, why not build your crossover with isolated corners where opposite rails intersect.

No need for a reverser or juicer. No problem with power districts.

Look at the design of an Atlas crossover: http://www.atlasrr.com/Images/Track/Trackphotos/0176.JPG

Paul O

Sent: Sunday, April 10, 20 16 8:20 PM
All, I am referencing David Klemm's scratch built diamonds (http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm) he made for his DCC layout.

I fully understand  his diagram, but on our club layout the two tracks that cross are on different power districts.  Will this be a problem in hooking up an auto reverse circuit or a frog juicer?

Thanks much in advance.

Lee

Puckdropper
 


Have you considered making the trackwork part of one power district or the other?  Then all you have to do is hook the reverser/juicer up like normal. Even though you've got more entrances and exits to worry about, they're only a worry for autoreversing sections.

Puckdropper

---In wiringfordcc@..., <lee.hanna60@...> wrote :

All, I am referencing David Klemm's scratch built diamonds (http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm) he made for his DCC layout.


I fully understand  his diagram, but on our club layout the two tracks that cross are on different power districts.  Will this be a problem in hooking up an auto reverse circuit or a frog juicer?


Thanks much in advance.

Lee


David Klemm
 

Paul,

The problem with the pre-built crossing is the amount of plastic used to keep the power isolated. In the Wabash/IC crossing that has 5 in a row it amounted to something like 3 inches of dead space in 9 inches. This causes a lot of 4 axle engines to stall.  With hand built the issue goes away. 

David Klemm
6s Plus




On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 8:23 PM -0700, "'Bill Aulicino' bill@... [WiringForDCC]" <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 

Forgive me folks but that’s not a crossover...that’s a crossing. A crossover requires two parallel tracks and two
turnouts. By the way Peco makes much nicer crossings.
Bill Aulicino
 
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 10:46 PM
Subject: RE: [WiringForDCC] Scratch built diamonds
 
 

Lee, why not build your crossover with isolated corners where opposite rails intersect.

No need for a reverser or juicer. No problem with power districts.

Look at the design of an Atlas crossover: http://www.atlasrr.com/Images/Track/Trackphotos/0176.JPG

Paul O

Sent: Sunday, April 10, 20 16 8:20 PM
All, I am referencing David Klemm's scratch built diamonds (http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm) he made for his DCC layout.

I fully understand  his diagram, but on our club layout the two tracks that cross are on different power districts.  Will this be a problem in hooking up an auto reverse circuit or a frog juicer?

Thanks much in advance.

Lee

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

Lee,

The simple answer is “Yes”. You may have issues with a frog juicer and/or auto-reverser if the entrance and exit paths cross between two different boosters or different circuit breaker limited power districts. Difficult to explain but multiple incident reports of just that. Might have something to do with using single or double or hex juicers, or older units vs newer ‘improved’ designs.

 

There are a few options: 1) use a crossing with a better design that uses smaller dead frogs. 2) Wire the entire crossing from only one power district and a PSX A-R unit powered from that district. Yes, a train traveling in the other path will momentarily connect the two districts together. 3)  Power the frog areas of the crossing via a DPDT relay triggered to select the proper district source and polarity from approaching train (track occupancy) sensors, or train dispatcher controlled permission operation.

 

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 7:20 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Scratch built diamonds

 




All, I am referencing David Klemm's scratch built diamonds (http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm) he made for his DCC layout.

 

I fully understand  his diagram, but on our club layout the two tracks that cross are on different power districts.  Will this be a problem in hooking up an auto reverse circuit or a frog juicer?

 

Thanks much in advance.

Lee

 




David Klemm
 

Lee/Don,

In my diamonds which are 3 x 5 for 15 diamonds I have a 2 inch buffer around them.  I then have a PSX A-R flipping power on the one side of each direction.  The buffer is needed because if an engine is going East and West then an engine cannot be in the buffer zone for the North and South route.  I can't recall a single instance of an issue with an engine coming in from each direction which would have caused the PSX A-R to flip out.

To add to the complexity, I had interchange tracks on 3 of the four sides connecting the two routes.  I had a dedicated PSX A-R for the diamonds.  I had a second PSX A-R that addressed flipping the power on the interchange track that required it.  

David


To: WiringForDCC@...
From: WiringForDCC@...
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 14:39:54 +0000
Subject: RE: [WiringForDCC] Scratch built diamonds

 

Lee,

The simple answer is “Yes”. You may have issues with a frog juicer and/or auto-reverser if the entrance and exit paths cross between two different boosters or different circuit breaker limited power districts. Difficult to explain but multiple incident reports of just that. Might have something to do with using single or double or hex juicers, or older units vs newer ‘improved’ designs.

 

There are a few options: 1) use a crossing with a better design that uses smaller dead frogs. 2) Wire the entire crossing from only one power district and a PSX A-R unit powered from that district. Yes, a train traveling in the other path will momentarily connect the two districts together. 3)  Power the frog areas of the crossing via a DPDT relay triggered to select the proper district source and polarity from approaching train (track occupancy) sensors, or train dispatcher controlled permission operation.

 

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 7:20 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Scratch built diamonds

 




All, I am referencing David Klemm's scratch built diamonds (http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm) he made for his DCC layout.
 
I fully understand  his diagram, but on our club layout the two tracks that cross are on different power districts.  Will this be a problem in hooking up an auto reverse circuit or a frog juicer?
 
Thanks much in advance.
Lee
 





Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

David,

You did a hybrid of my 2) and 3) whereas your ‘buffer’ zone isolated the entire crossing and path occupancy permission control is somewhat obvious, even if manual by train engineers. Yes you can power the entire ‘isolated’ crossing via a PSX-AR. However the design of the frogs is still important to avoid dead spots or shorts.

Lee’s questions brought in the possibility of issues of using a frog juicer… a different product than the PSX-AR… or other brand A-R units for that matter… and workability with two separate CB power districts. Either of these have been demonstrated by others to be somewhat problematic depending on choices of other equipment.

 

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 9:51 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: RE: [WiringForDCC] Scratch built diamonds

 




Lee/Don,

 

In my diamonds which are 3 x 5 for 15 diamonds I have a 2 inch buffer around them.  I then have a PSX A-R flipping power on the one side of each direction.  The buffer is needed because if an engine is going East and West then an engine cannot be in the buffer zone for the North and South route.  I can't recall a single instance of an issue with an engine coming in from each direction which would have caused the PSX A-R to flip out.

 

To add to the complexity, I had interchange tracks on 3 of the four sides connecting the two routes.  I had a dedicated PSX A-R for the diamonds.  I had a second PSX A-R that addressed flipping the power on the interchange track that required it.  

 

David


To: WiringForDCC@...
From: WiringForDCC@...
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 14:39:54 +0000
Subject: RE: [WiringForDCC] Scratch built diamonds

 

 

Lee,

The simple answer is “Yes”. You may have issues with a frog juicer and/or auto-reverser if the entrance and exit paths cross between two different boosters or different circuit breaker limited power districts. Difficult to explain but multiple incident reports of just that. Might have something to do with using single or double or hex juicers, or older units vs newer ‘improved’ designs.

 

There are a few options: 1) use a crossing with a better design that uses smaller dead frogs. 2) Wire the entire crossing from only one power district and a PSX A-R unit powered from that district. Yes, a train traveling in the other path will momentarily connect the two districts together. 3)  Power the frog areas of the crossing via a DPDT relay triggered to select the proper district source and polarity from approaching train (track occupancy) sensors, or train dispatcher controlled permission operation.

 

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 7:20 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Scratch built diamonds

 



All, I am referencing David Klemm's scratch built diamonds (http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm) he made for his DCC layout.
 
I fully understand  his diagram, but on our club layout the two tracks that cross are on different power districts.  Will this be a problem in hooking up an auto reverse circuit or a frog juicer?
 
Thanks much in advance.
Lee
 



 




Paul O
 

David, I understand, however, Lee mentioned only two tracks crossing.

It was just a thought to make things easier for him.

 

Paul O

 

Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 8:17 AM
Paul,

 

The problem with the pre-built crossing is the amount of plastic used to keep the power isolated. In the Wabash/IC crossing that has 5 in a row it amounted to something like 3 inches of dead space in 9 inches. This causes a lot of 4 axle engines to stall.  With hand built the issue goes away. 

David Klemm
6s Plus