Topics

Peco Electrofrog - Adding Gaps

redking56@...
 

I have several Peco Insulfrogs on my layout, and I understand how they work with their power routing feature and without the need to add gaps to prevent shorts.

I do not have any Peco Electrofrogs on my layout, but I do understand how they work and the need to gap the inside rails leading from the frog to prevent shorts.

My question is this.  Why doesn't Peco just cut those two gaps on the inside rails?  I am trying to imagine a situation in which the Peco Electrofrog can operate without cutting those two gaps.

Can someone enlighten me?

Rich

William Teeters <cozyflyr9398@...>
 

Take a good look at the construction. Pretty fragile huh?. I have about 150 Peco Insulfrog switches and quite satisfied with them. Some are ten-twelve years old. Bill Teeters CP&W RR, as seen at RockRail.org



From: "redking56@..."
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 5:55 AM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Peco Electrofrog - Adding Gaps

 
I have several Peco Insulfrogs on my layout, and I understand how they work with their power routing feature and without the need to add gaps to prevent shorts.

I do not have any Peco Electrofrogs on my layout, but I do understand how they work and the need to gap the inside rails leading from the frog to prevent shorts.

My question is this.  Why doesn't Peco just cut those two gaps on the inside rails?  I am trying to imagine a situation in which the Peco Electrofrog can operate without cutting those two gaps.

Can someone enlighten me?

Rich


redking56@...
 

Bill, I am not sure that I understand your reply.  I also have Insulfrogs on my layout, and I am quite satisfied with them.  But, I was asking about the Peco Electrofrog.

Rich


---In WiringForDCC@..., <cozyflyr9398@...> wrote :

Take a good look at the construction. Pretty fragile huh?. I have about 150 Peco Insulfrog switches and quite satisfied with them. Some are ten-twelve years old. Bill Teeters CP&W RR, as seen at RockRail.org



From: "redking56@..." <redking56@...>
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 5:55 AM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Peco Electrofrog - Adding Gaps

 
I have several Peco Insulfrogs on my layout, and I understand how they work with their power routing feature and without the need to add gaps to prevent shorts.

I do not have any Peco Electrofrogs on my layout, but I do understand how they work and the need to gap the inside rails leading from the frog to prevent shorts.

My question is this.  Why doesn't Peco just cut those two gaps on the inside rails?  I am trying to imagine a situation in which the Peco Electrofrog can operate without cutting those two gaps.

Can someone enlighten me?

Rich


William Teeters <cozyflyr9398@...>
 

Yes you have to insulate the two inside rails to keep from shorting out. Just like you would with a Walthers switch. Bill T



From: "
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Peco Electrofrog - Adding Gaps

 
Bill, I am not sure that I understand your reply.  I also have Insulfrogs on my layout, and I am quite satisfied with them.  But, I was asking about the Peco Electrofrog.

Rich


---In WiringForDCC@...,
Take a good look at the construction. Pretty fragile huh?. I have about 150 Peco Insulfrog switches and quite satisfied with them. Some are ten-twelve years old. Bill Teeters CP&W RR, as seen at RockRail.org



From: "redking56@..."
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 5:55 AM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Peco Electrofrog - Adding Gaps

 
I have several Peco Insulfrogs on my layout, and I understand how they work with their power routing feature and without the need to add gaps to prevent shorts.

I do not have any Peco Electrofrogs on my layout, but I do understand how they work and the need to gap the inside rails leading from the frog to prevent shorts.

My question is this.  Why doesn't Peco just cut those two gaps on the inside rails?  I am trying to imagine a situation in which the Peco Electrofrog can operate without cutting those two gaps.

Can someone enlighten me?

Rich




redking56@...
 

OK, let me pose my question again.

I realize that you need to cut gaps on the two inside rails leading away from the frog on a Peco Electrofrog, but my question is why doesn't Peco just cut those gaps when manufacturing the Electrofrog.  Are there situations where you wouldn't cut those two gaps on an Electrofrog?

Rich


---In WiringForDCC@..., <cozyflyr9398@...> wrote :

Yes you have to insulate the two inside rails to keep from shorting out. Just like you would with a Walthers switch. Bill T



From: "
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Peco Electrofrog - Adding Gaps

 
Bill, I am not sure that I understand your reply.  I also have Insulfrogs on my layout, and I am quite satisfied with them.  But, I was asking about the Peco Electrofrog.

Rich


---In WiringForDCC@..., <cozyflyr9398@...> wrote :

Take a good look at the construction. Pretty fragile huh?. I have about 150 Peco Insulfrog switches and quite satisfied with them. Some are ten-twelve years old. Bill Teeters CP&W RR, as seen at RockRail.org



From: "redking56@..." <redking56@...>
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 5:55 AM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Peco Electrofrog - Adding Gaps

 
I have several Peco Insulfrogs on my layout, and I understand how they work with their power routing feature and without the need to add gaps to prevent shorts.

I do not have any Peco Electrofrogs on my layout, but I do understand how they work and the need to gap the inside rails leading from the frog to prevent shorts.

My question is this.  Why doesn't Peco just cut those two gaps on the inside rails?  I am trying to imagine a situation in which the Peco Electrofrog can operate without cutting those two gaps.

Can someone enlighten me?

Rich




Scott H. Haycock
 

Rich,

The frog changes polarity, depending on which route the turnout is lined for. That's why there are gaps on any powered frog type turnout,between the frog and the point/closure rails. Even if the tracks beyond the frog are dead end spurs, you still need gaps because when you throw the turnout for the other route, without gaps and feeders, both rails would have the same polarity! If the route rejoins another track, then gaps are necessary to avoid possible shorts. Envision a pair of turnouts at opposite ends of a passing siding, one thrown for the siding, and one thrown for the main. The frogs would be of opposite polarity. without gaps, a short would occur.

As to your question, most track manufacturers assume you will use insulated rail joiners to create the gaps past the frogs when you assemble your track components.

Also remember that you have to power both rails beyond the frog from your track bus, since they are not powered by the frog.    


Scott Haycock
Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantm
ent


 

OK, let me pose my question again.


I realize that you need to cut gaps on the two inside rails leading away from the frog on a Peco Electrofrog, but my question is why doesn't Peco just cut those gaps when manufacturing the Electrofrog.  Are there situations where you wouldn't cut those two gaps on an Electrofrog?

Rich


---In WiringForDCC@..., wrote :

Yes you have to insulate the two inside rails to keep from shorting out. Just like you would with a Walthers switch. Bill T



From: "
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Peco Electrofrog - Adding Gaps

 
Bill, I am not sure that I understand your reply.  I also have Insulfrogs on my layout, and I am quite satisfied with them.  But, I was asking about the Peco Electrofrog.

Rich


---In WiringForDCC@..., wrote :

Take a good look at the construction. Pretty fragile huh?. I have about 150 Peco Insulfrog switches and quite satisfied with them. Some are ten-twelve years old. Bill Teeters CP&W RR, as seen at RockRail.org



From: "redking56@..."
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 5:55 AM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Peco Electrofrog - Adding Gaps

 
I have several Peco Insulfrogs on my layout, and I understand how they work with their power routing feature and without the need to add gaps to prevent shorts.

I do not have any Peco Electrofrogs on my layout, but I do understand how they work and the need to gap the inside rails leading from the frog to prevent shorts.

My question is this.  Why doesn't Peco just cut those two gaps on the inside rails?  I am trying to imagine a situation in which the Peco Electrofrog can operate without cutting those two gaps.

Can someone enlighten me?

Rich








redking56@...
 

Sorry to press the point here, but what I am looking for is a situation with an Electrofrog where you would not gap those two inner rails leading from the frog.  I cannot imagine any situation where you would not gap those two rails, so I am wondering why Peco just doesn't gap those two inner rails at the factory.

Rich



Craig Zeni
 

On Mar 10, 2014, at 9:01 AM, <redking56@...> <redking56@...> wrote:



Sorry to press the point here, but what I am looking for is a situation with an Electrofrog where you would not gap those two inner rails leading from the frog. I cannot imagine any situation where you would not gap those two rails, so I am wondering why Peco just doesn't gap those two inner rails at the factory.
Stub ended sidings where you're feeding power from the switch point end will not require that gapping. Used like that they're power routing turnouts, nothing more. Otherwise use insulated rail joiners on the two 'inner' (frog) rails and a frog juicer or the power routing leads on a Tortoise or other switch machine to power the frog. This is the advantage of an Electrofrog / live frog turnout - it removes the 'dead spot' of an Insulfrog turnout that can make very short wheelbase engines stumble.

As a side note, this is the way turnouts have been made for decades not just by Peco but by Shinohara, BK Enterprises kits, and thousands of those who handlay their own turnouts using solder to fill the frog. Handlayers would gap; store bought guys would use insulated rail joiners.

A completely separate issue is other thing that power routing turnouts can lead to - the momentary shorts when the back of the wheels touch the 'open' point rail - the open point rail is of opposite polarity. On DC with mechanical circuit breakers this didn't much matter as the short often cleared before the breaker could trip or the operator even noticed...maybe a stumble. But with DCC the breaker will trip instantly. Insulated frog turnouts have frog rails that don't change polarity so that wheel back issue vanishes...and that's a lot of what makes them "DCC friendly." But...and it's a big but...IF the wheels are in gauge and of correct RP25 profile...AND the turnout's point rails, guard rails and other details are to NMRA spec....the wheel backs cannot reach and touch the open point rails. So if you're equipment and track all meet NMRA specs, the turnout type doesn't matter because it cannot short wheel back/point rail back. Now which is easier to do - install DCC friendly turnouts or sort thru all your track and rolling stock and get it all to spec? That's a no brainer :) ...but it's just some more background info.


CZ
NC

Scott H. Haycock
 

 


CZ wrote:
Stub ended sidings where you're feeding power from the switch point end will not require that gapping.

If the siding is only a single industry, where no locomotives will be operating, you are correct. But if it is  situation where a locomotive will be spotting cars while the turnout is aligned the other way, as in a multi-spot industry, or a short branch into an industrial park,  a condition where both rails are the same polarity (phase, in DCC) will occur, if you don't isolate the frog.

As you noted, using the concepts of DCC friendly turnout wiring is best, even if you are not using DCC, Also, I would wire (and gap) every turnout to these standards, whether necessary or not. When it comes to model railroad wiring, standardization,  consistency, and documentation  in you wiring practices will benefit you down the road, when you find yourself troubleshooting a problem!__





Scott Haycock
Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantm
ent

Dale Gloer
 

You don't need to cut any gaps on the frog rails, all you need to do is use insulated rail joiners on the ends of the frog rails.  The frog rails end before the fouling point on either route so using insulated joiners is sufficient.  See the pictures here for details of using Electrofrog turnouts.  http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_peco.htm

This is from my layout and I have almost 100 code 75 Electrofrog turnouts in service for almost 10 years with no problems.

Dale Gloer

William Teeters <cozyflyr9398@...>
 

Why cut the gaps?. If you use insulators, on the two inside rails, there is no reason to cut any gaps. The short rails you plan on cutting, will give you nothing but grief as the rails are short in size, and will not stay in place. Ask me how I know. Bill Teeters



From: "redking56@..."
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 6:32 AM
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Peco Electrofrog - Adding Gaps

 
OK, let me pose my question again.

I realize that you need to cut gaps on the two inside rails leading away from the frog on a Peco Electrofrog, but my question is why doesn't Peco just cut those gaps when manufacturing the Electrofrog.  Are there situations where you wouldn't cut those two gaps on an Electrofrog?

Rich


---In WiringForDCC@..., wrote :

Yes you have to insulate the two inside rails to keep from shorting out. Just like you would with a Walthers switch. Bill T



From: "
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Peco Electrofrog - Adding Gaps

 
Bill, I am not sure that I understand your reply.  I also have Insulfrogs on my layout, and I am quite satisfied with them.  But, I was asking about the Peco Electrofrog.

Rich


---In WiringForDCC@..., wrote :

Take a good look at the construction. Pretty fragile huh?. I have about 150 Peco Insulfrog switches and quite satisfied with them. Some are ten-twelve years old. Bill Teeters CP&W RR, as seen at RockRail.org



From: "redking56@..."
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 5:55 AM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Peco Electrofrog - Adding Gaps

 
I have several Peco Insulfrogs on my layout, and I understand how they work with their power routing feature and without the need to add gaps to prevent shorts.

I do not have any Peco Electrofrogs on my layout, but I do understand how they work and the need to gap the inside rails leading from the frog to prevent shorts.

My question is this.  Why doesn't Peco just cut those two gaps on the inside rails?  I am trying to imagine a situation in which the Peco Electrofrog can operate without cutting those two gaps.

Can someone enlighten me?

Rich






redking56@...
 

Bill,
I don't plan on cutting any gaps.  As I mentioned at the outset, it was just idle curiosity.  
It just seems to me that in every instance, someone using an Electrofrog is going to gap those rails, so it seems logical that Peco ought to do it for you.
Rich

Bill Aulicino
 

Peco does gap them, but they call them Insulfrogs.
Bill Aulicino

 
 
 
 

Bill,

I don't plan on cutting any gaps.  As I mentioned at the outset, it was just idle curiosity.  
It just seems to me that in every instance, someone using an Electrofrog is going to gap those rails, so it seems logical that Peco ought to do it for you.
Rich

redking56@...
 

Hmmm, OK, since no one seems to want to address the question as I originally phrased it, I will withdraw the question.  Thanks, anyhow.
Rich


---In WiringForDCC@..., <bill@...> wrote :

Peco does gap them, but they call them Insulfrogs.
Bill Aulicino

 
 
 
 

Bill,

I don't plan on cutting any gaps.  As I mentioned at the outset, it was just idle curiosity.  
It just seems to me that in every instance, someone using an Electrofrog is going to gap those rails, so it seems logical that Peco ought to do it for you.
Rich

William Teeters <cozyflyr9398@...>
 

O.K. A lot of interest in this. The two legs that make up the inner rails are fragile. The insulators are the gaps. If needed, Maybe Peco should furnish insulators to make up the gap. I'm sure this would increase the cost of the switch, Plus, The distributor and Hobbie dealer would factor in a profit if the addition were added. Bill T



From: "redking56@..."
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Peco Electrofrog - Adding Gaps

 
Hmmm, OK, since no one seems to want to address the question as I originally phrased it, I will withdraw the question.  Thanks, anyhow.
Rich


---In WiringForDCC@..., wrote :

Peco does gap them, but they call them Insulfrogs.
Bill Aulicino
 
 
 
 
Bill,
I don't plan on cutting any gaps.  As I mentioned at the outset, it was just idle curiosity.  
It just seems to me that in every instance, someone using an Electrofrog is going to gap those rails, so it seems logical that Peco ought to do it for you.
Rich


Annette and Dante Fuligni
 

Rich,

I have some Walthers/Shinohara older, non-DCC friendly turnouts that are power-routing. Typically, I do in effect gap the rails from the frog by using insulating joiners. However, there are a couple of locations where these turnouts feed and power stub yard tracks. The layout is small, and I don’t anticipate running two locos simultaneously on the stub yard tracks in question; therefore, I only need to power one of these adjacent tracks at a time. Therefore, I don’t have to gap the rails from those frogs. I believe the same reasoning would apply to the use of PECO Electrofrogs (to reply to your basic question). :-)

Dante

Bob H <rehandjr@...>
 

Dante,

I think you are the first who answered the question that was asked. I think this is exactly the information that Rich wanted.

Thanks. bob

---- Original Message ----
From: "Annette and Dante Fuligni" <dfuligni2144@...>
Sent: 3/10/2014 11:51:55 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Re: Peco Electrofrog - Adding Gaps

Rich,

I have some Walthers/Shinohara older, non-DCC friendly turnouts that are power-routing. Typically, I do in effect gap the rails from the frog by using insulating joiners. However, there are a couple of locations where these turnouts feed and power stub yard tracks. The layout is small, and I don’t anticipate running two locos simultaneously on the stub yard tracks in question; therefore, I only need to power one of these adjacent tracks at a time. Therefore, I don’t have to gap the rails from those frogs. I believe the same reasoning would apply to the use of PECO Electrofrogs (to reply to your basic question). :-)

Dante

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William Teeters <cozyflyr9398@...>
 

A lot of people throw the term "gap" out there with no explanation as what they mean which, leads to a lot of misunderstanding. Is the rail being cut?. or are insulators being used?. An explanation of actually what is being done would stop a lot of confusion and cost to the person who is not wise to where the rail can actually can be cut without a disaster, such as the small rail sections falling out in a persons hand when the cut is made.. Just a thought, a lot of great information on this site. Bill Teeters Chicago,Peoria and Western RR. As seen on the RockRail.org site, Located Rockford, Ill.



From: Scott H. Haycock
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Peco Electrofrog - Adding Gaps

 
 

CZ wrote:
Stub ended sidings where you're feeding power from the switch point end will not require that gapping.

If the siding is only a single industry, where no locomotives will be operating, you are correct. But if it is  situation where a locomotive will be spotting cars while the turnout is aligned the other way, as in a multi-spot industry, or a short branch into an industrial park,  a condition where both rails are the same polarity (phase, in DCC) will occur, if you don't isolate the frog.
As you noted, using the concepts of DCC friendly turnout wiring is best, even if you are not using DCC, Also, I would wire (and gap) every turnout to these standards, whether necessary or not. When it comes to model railroad wiring, standardization,  consistency, and documentation  in you wiring practices will benefit you down the road, when you find yourself troubleshooting a problem!__




Scott Haycock
Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantm
ent