Topics

Shinohara Turnout

David Klemm
 

Question to see how others fixed an issue. I have some Shinohara turnouts that are installed that have lost power to some of the point rails through the joiner. These did not have the modification that is shown on the website. These are ballasted turnouts so removing them is not an option.

My initial reaction is to solder the rail joiner to both sides. I realize this reduces flexibility but given the joiner is only a quarter inch long, I can't imagine that this would impact rail gauge etc. These are number 8 and 10's so the point rail is very long.

My other thought was to drill 2 holes through the table and add one side of a feeder wire to the pivot rail and the other end to the fixed rail.

Thanks

David

Bill Aulicino
 

WOULD SOLDERING A WIRE TO SPAN THE RAIL JOINER WORK??
BILL

David Klemm
 

Bill;

I actually thought about that as well. My thought was to pull some wire out of the sheathing and only use the wire so as to not interfer with the wheels.

David Klemm





To: WiringForDCC@...
From: bill@...
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 08:34:37 -0500
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Shinohara Turnout






WOULD SOLDERING A WIRE TO SPAN THE RAIL JOINER WORK??
BILL

wirefordcc <wire4dcc@...>
 

David,

The biggest problem with soldering the joiners is that it stiffens up the point rails. Not all switch machines have "enough strength" to move these stiffened point rails. It will also take a little while to solder the entire joiner. That isn't good. Finally, you can't clean the joint. Liquid flux can flow around the joiner whereas normal solder with a rosin core flux can't or will take a lot of heat while waiting for it to flow.

The next best approach is to solder a small wire, like a #24 AWG wire around the joiner. This will require two solder joints on each rail (1 point and 1 closure rail connection)

The approach with the least mechanical resistance is to drop feeders to the point rails. It also has the advantage of you only having to make one solder connection to each rail.

Whatever approach you pursue, you must solder very carefully and quickly to avoid melting anything. Use enough heat that the rail heats quickly, but get off of it as soon as your joint forms. Some form of heat sink, like foreceps will help draw away the heat from melting plastic connections.

I recommend liquid flux, solid (no-core) solder, and a resitance soldering iron to do this. Visit my website for ordering liquid flux at: http://www.WiringForDCC.com/solder.htm#a10

Allan
Wiring For DCC

--- In WiringForDCC@..., "BILL AULICINO" <bill@...> wrote:

WOULD SOLDERING A WIRE TO SPAN THE RAIL JOINER WORK??
BILL

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

David Klemm
 

Allan;

Would decoder wire work? I was thinking of using it because it is flexible and small.

David

-----Original Message-----

From: wirefordcc
Sent: 29 Dec 2011 16:34:41 GMT
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Re: Shinohara Turnout

David,

The biggest problem with soldering the joiners is that it stiffens up the point rails. Not all switch machines have "enough strength" to move these stiffened point rails. It will also take a little while to solder the entire joiner. That isn't good. Finally, you can't clean the joint. Liquid flux can flow around the joiner whereas normal solder with a rosin core flux can't or will take a lot of heat while waiting for it to flow.

The next best approach is to solder a small wire, like a #24 AWG wire around the joiner. This will require two solder joints on each rail (1 point and 1 closure rail connection)

The approach with the least mechanical resistance is to drop feeders to the point rails. It also has the advantage of you only having to make one solder connection to each rail.

Whatever approach you pursue, you must solder very carefully and quickly to avoid melting anything. Use enough heat that the rail heats quickly, but get off of it as soon as your joint forms. Some form of heat sink, like foreceps will help draw away the heat from melting plastic connections.

I recommend liquid flux, solid (no-core) solder, and a resitance soldering iron to do this. Visit my website for ordering liquid flux at: http://www.WiringForDCC.com/solder.htm#a10

Allan
Wiring For DCC

--- In WiringForDCC@..., "BILL AULICINO" <bill@...> wrote:

WOULD SOLDERING A WIRE TO SPAN THE RAIL JOINER WORK??
BILL


wirefordcc <wire4dcc@...>
 

David,

Decoder wire might work. The solder may wick along the stranded wire and make it stiff; after all, you are talking about a short piece of wire.

Whether you use decoder or any other small diameter wire, I would practice on a piece of scrap rail. Cut the rail to about the length of your points before you start. A little shorter would be better. You are trying to match the metal mass of your points. Then solder. If you melt the ties, try again on a fresh piece.

--- In WiringForDCC@..., DAVID KLEMM <davidklemm7511@...> wrote:

Allan;

Would decoder wire work? I was thinking of using it because it is flexible and small.

David

-----Original Message-----

From: wirefordcc
Sent: 29 Dec 2011 16:34:41 GMT
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Re: Shinohara Turnout

David,

The biggest problem with soldering the joiners is that it stiffens up the point rails. Not all switch machines have "enough strength" to move these stiffened point rails. It will also take a little while to solder the entire joiner. That isn't good. Finally, you can't clean the joint. Liquid flux can flow around the joiner whereas normal solder with a rosin core flux can't or will take a lot of heat while waiting for it to flow.

The next best approach is to solder a small wire, like a #24 AWG wire around the joiner. This will require two solder joints on each rail (1 point and 1 closure rail connection)

The approach with the least mechanical resistance is to drop feeders to the point rails. It also has the advantage of you only having to make one solder connection to each rail.

Whatever approach you pursue, you must solder very carefully and quickly to avoid melting anything. Use enough heat that the rail heats quickly, but get off of it as soon as your joint forms. Some form of heat sink, like foreceps will help draw away the heat from melting plastic connections.

I recommend liquid flux, solid (no-core) solder, and a resitance soldering iron to do this. Visit my website for ordering liquid flux at: http://www.WiringForDCC.com/solder.htm#a10

Allan
Wiring For DCC

--- In WiringForDCC@..., "BILL AULICINO" <bill@> wrote:

WOULD SOLDERING A WIRE TO SPAN THE RAIL JOINER WORK??
BILL






Blair & Rasa
 

Allen, David
A technique I use for heat-sensitive locations is to not worry about making the joint the first time around. Pre-tin your "spot" on the rail with a quick, light application of heat and solder. Let cool. Do the same with the wire (use locking pliers, c-clamp or other for holding the wire). Then hold the wire at the precise location you want to solder it to, apply iron tip to wire, and push the wire into location, then remove the iron quickly and let the joint set. The problem with doing it all at once is juggling solder, iron, and wire inevitably takes longer than the above technique, leading to melted ties, etc. It will take a few tries to get the temperature right, high enough to avoid bad joints but not hot enough to melt ties, and this could easily be practised on a scrap piece of flex.

I find with this technique I can reliably do in-situ drops for points, rails, joints, or whatever is needed with few-to-no incidents of damage. I walk around the layout and put in 40-50 solder spots on the rail bottoms at my previously drilled holes using a fine tipped iron, then walk around and add the drops. Usually the only thing that suffers is the cork surface(minor heat charring), and that will be coated with ballast anyway. This is with rosin-core, so my guess is using solid and flux would go even slicker.

If soldering to rail already ballasted, it will be tough to get tip and wire underneath, but a fine stripped wire can still be applied to the bottom edge of the rail without interference issues.

Works for me, anyway.
Blair Smith

David Klemm
 

Blair;

I use that technique when I solder on rail feeders. A little flux and then solder on the rail. I take my tinned wire and place it next to the solder on the rail and apply the tip of the soldering iron. Works great.

I have a variable heat soldering iron and three different tip sizes. I'm going to start with my fine tip and see how that goes and if I can't make that work, move up to the medium tip.

David Klemm





To: WiringForDCC@...
From: smithbr@...
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 14:16:13 -0500
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Re: Shinohara Turnout






Allen, David
A technique I use for heat-sensitive locations is to not worry about
making the joint the first time around. Pre-tin your "spot" on the rail
with a quick, light application of heat and solder. Let cool. Do the
same with the wire (use locking pliers, c-clamp or other for holding the
wire). Then hold the wire at the precise location you want to solder it
to, apply iron tip to wire, and push the wire into location, then remove
the iron quickly and let the joint set. The problem with doing it all
at once is juggling solder, iron, and wire inevitably takes longer than
the above technique, leading to melted ties, etc. It will take a few
tries to get the temperature right, high enough to avoid bad joints but
not hot enough to melt ties, and this could easily be practised on a
scrap piece of flex.

I find with this technique I can reliably do in-situ drops for points,
rails, joints, or whatever is needed with few-to-no incidents of
damage. I walk around the layout and put in 40-50 solder spots on the
rail bottoms at my previously drilled holes using a fine tipped iron,
then walk around and add the drops. Usually the only thing that suffers
is the cork surface(minor heat charring), and that will be coated with
ballast anyway. This is with rosin-core, so my guess is using solid and
flux would go even slicker.

If soldering to rail already ballasted, it will be tough to get tip and
wire underneath, but a fine stripped wire can still be applied to the
bottom edge of the rail without interference issues.

Works for me, anyway.
Blair Smith

wdavis5069 <wdavis5069@...>
 

Although that may seem to be the best approach it be counter productive. If the iron tip is significantly smaller than the workpiece, the rail in this case, it will take longer to heat the workpiece and allow more of the heat to spread without heating the desired spot to a temperature sufficient to melt the solder. A good hot iron that holds enough heat to heat a spot rapidly will not allow the heat to spread to the ties, etc. At least this has been my experience.

Wil

--- In WiringForDCC@..., DAVID KLEMM <davidklemm7511@...> wrote:


Blair;

I use that technique when I solder on rail feeders. A little flux and then solder on the rail. I take my tinned wire and place it next to the solder on the rail and apply the tip of the soldering iron. Works great.

I have a variable heat soldering iron and three different tip sizes. I'm going to start with my fine tip and see how that goes and if I can't make that work, move up to the medium tip.

David Klemm





To: WiringForDCC@...
From: smithbr@...
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 14:16:13 -0500
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Re: Shinohara Turnout






Allen, David
A technique I use for heat-sensitive locations is to not worry about
making the joint the first time around. Pre-tin your "spot" on the rail
with a quick, light application of heat and solder. Let cool. Do the
same with the wire (use locking pliers, c-clamp or other for holding the
wire). Then hold the wire at the precise location you want to solder it
to, apply iron tip to wire, and push the wire into location, then remove
the iron quickly and let the joint set. The problem with doing it all
at once is juggling solder, iron, and wire inevitably takes longer than
the above technique, leading to melted ties, etc. It will take a few
tries to get the temperature right, high enough to avoid bad joints but
not hot enough to melt ties, and this could easily be practised on a
scrap piece of flex.

I find with this technique I can reliably do in-situ drops for points,
rails, joints, or whatever is needed with few-to-no incidents of
damage. I walk around the layout and put in 40-50 solder spots on the
rail bottoms at my previously drilled holes using a fine tipped iron,
then walk around and add the drops. Usually the only thing that suffers
is the cork surface(minor heat charring), and that will be coated with
ballast anyway. This is with rosin-core, so my guess is using solid and
flux would go even slicker.

If soldering to rail already ballasted, it will be tough to get tip and
wire underneath, but a fine stripped wire can still be applied to the
bottom edge of the rail without interference issues.

Works for me, anyway.
Blair Smith







Carl
 

Hi Gang:

Even a light gauge of enameled magnet wire would work fine. Since the
power would only be needed for short amounts of time the light gauge
wire wouldn't heat up while an engine passes over. Also the lighter the
gauge the easier it flexes and the usual brown color blends in. Be sure
to make a bit of a loop.

Good luck, Carl.

Blair & Rasa
 

Carl, David
When trying to maintain flexibility in situations like your points problem, I use 30ga solid wire-wrap wire, stripped with a wire-wrap tool to avoid nicks. It's usually available in 50 or 100 foot rolls, though i haven't bought any in eons. Jumpers around the joiners used for switch points are very easy to do, and the wire is easily painted with one of those newfangled paint markers. any brown or rust colour will do.
Current draw on the point rail is usually less than 1 amp, and usually you're only feeding one truck of a [diesel] locomotive, so the wire gauge is not a problem.
Blair

Alan
 

--- In WiringForDCC@..., "Alan" <acun95128@...> wrote:

you might try going to this web site and pick out the turnout plans that apply to your situation and make the necessary cuts for the frogs etc and install copper PCboard ties in the places marked in the plans I build my own turnouts and have Shinohara turnouts that I have converted successfully!!!!! These are now DCC Friendly http://www.handlaidtrack.com/Fast-Tracks-Printable-Track-Templates-s/11.htm

--- In WiringForDCC@..., "DavidK" <davidklemm7511@> wrote:

Question to see how others fixed an issue. I have some Shinohara turnouts that are installed that have lost power to some of the point rails through the joiner. These did not have the modification that is shown on the website. These are ballasted turnouts so removing them is not an option.

My initial reaction is to solder the rail joiner to both sides. I realize this reduces flexibility but given the joiner is only a quarter inch long, I can't imagine that this would impact rail gauge etc. These are number 8 and 10's so the point rail is very long.

My other thought was to drill 2 holes through the table and add one side of a feeder wire to the pivot rail and the other end to the fixed rail.

Thanks

David

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

On Jan 9, 2012, at 5:05 AM, WiringForDCC@... wrote:

Question to see how others fixed an issue. I have some Shinohara turnouts that are installed that have lost power to some of the point rails through the joiner. These did not have the modification that is shown on the website. These are ballasted turnouts so removing them is not an option.

My initial reaction is to solder the rail joiner to both sides. I realize this reduces flexibility but given the joiner is only a quarter inch long, I can't imagine that this would impact rail gauge etc. These are number 8 and 10's so the point rail is very long.
Not a good idea...at all. This will give you all sorts of problems, not the least of which is placing stress on the point assembly.

Although I routinely jumper these rails on the bench from the underside of the turnout- with #29 tinned uninsulated wire- providing wide-enough "loops" in the jumpers so that point rail movement is not impeded, this can also still be done with the turnout in place, but this time with the jumper on top of the ties, disguised with ballast, etc.

My other thought was to drill 2 holes through the table and add one side of a feeder wire to the pivot rail and the other end to the fixed rail.
This kind of fix is my "last resort" . It works well, is fast, and can be a very effective expedient.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

On Jan 9, 2012, at 5:05 AM, WiringForDCC@... wrote:

Question to see how others fixed an issue. I have some Shinohara turnouts that are installed that have lost power to some of the point rails through the joiner. These did not have the modification that is shown on the website. These are ballasted turnouts so removing them is not an option.

My initial reaction is to solder the rail joiner to both sides. I realize this reduces flexibility but given the joiner is only a quarter inch long, I can't imagine that this would impact rail gauge etc. These are number 8 and 10's so the point rail is very long.
Not a good idea...at all. This will give you all sorts of problems, not the least of which is placing stress on the point assembly.

Although I routinely jumper these rails on the bench from the underside of the turnout- with #29 tinned uninsulated wire- providing wide-enough "loops" in the jumpers so that point rail movement is not impeded, this can also still be done with the turnout in place, but this time with the jumper on top of the ties, disguised with ballast, etc.

My other thought was to drill 2 holes through the table and add one side of a feeder wire to the pivot rail and the other end to the fixed rail.
This kind of fix is my "last resort" . It works well, is fast, and can be a very effective expedient.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento

Alan
 

Check this video out this may help you Alan C.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZHL25RgH4E&feature=related

--- In WiringForDCC@..., Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:

On Jan 9, 2012, at 5:05 AM, WiringForDCC@... wrote:

Question to see how others fixed an issue. I have some Shinohara turnouts that are installed that have lost power to some of the point rails through the joiner. These did not have the modification that is shown on the website. These are ballasted turnouts so removing them is not an option.

My initial reaction is to solder the rail joiner to both sides. I realize this reduces flexibility but given the joiner is only a quarter inch long, I can't imagine that this would impact rail gauge etc. These are number 8 and 10's so the point rail is very long.
Not a good idea...at all. This will give you all sorts of problems, not the least of which is placing stress on the point assembly.

Although I routinely jumper these rails on the bench from the underside of the turnout- with #29 tinned uninsulated wire- providing wide-enough "loops" in the jumpers so that point rail movement is not impeded, this can also still be done with the turnout in place, but this time with the jumper on top of the ties, disguised with ballast, etc.

My other thought was to drill 2 holes through the table and add one side of a feeder wire to the pivot rail and the other end to the fixed rail.
This kind of fix is my "last resort" . It works well, is fast, and can be a very effective expedient.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento