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New file uploaded to WiringForDCC

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Audible Alarm for shorts

Edward Sargent
 

Our club is using NCE CP6 for circuit protection (tail light bulbs), because of the large number of visitors (we are in a popular restaurant)  and the fact that half the layout is in a separate room we would like to add a buzzer system to alert us when there is a short. Because of the crowds and a lift up bridge it takes a while to reach the command station. We are installing emergency shut offs so the power can be cut quickly but if we don't know there is a short it maybe too late. We did have an incident where the light was on long enough that the smell of smoke was our first clue  (the CP6 was not in your line of sight).

Re: Audible Alarm for shorts

john
 

   Here is another option for shutting down. Wire your track through a Digitrax PM42 or a similar device. You would be able to wire up to 4 tracks or 4 blocks with it. If you still want a buzzer, wire a low voltage, low wattage relay across the rails and use it's NC contacts to switch on a buzzer when the track power is opened by the auto auto-circuit breaker. 
   There are a number of auto circuit breakers available that may better fit your needs. 
   The brake light bulbs are very useful if they are visible. They even encourage a crescendo of Short, SHORT, short, from the viewers but they are ineffective if they are hidden.
   Where is this popular restaurant. Just for the trains mind you, just the trains.
john


On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 2:54 PM, "ed_sargent@... [WiringForDCC]" wrote:




Our club is using NCE CP6 for circuit protection (tail light bulbs), because of the large number of visitors (we are in a popular restaurant)  and the fact that half the layout is in a separate room we would like to add a buzzer system to alert us when there is a short. Because of the crowds and a lift up bridge it takes a while to reach the command station. We are installing emergency shut offs so the power can be cut quickly but if we don't know there is a short it maybe too late. We did have an incident where the light was on long enough that the smell of smoke was our first clue  (the CP6 was not in your line of sight).




Re: Audible Alarm for shorts

Edward Sargent
 

Actually the bulbs are visible, unless the operator is in the other room or has his/her back to the CP6 and gabbing with a visitor. Not all visitors have a clue the light means short, a lot thing the trains run on batteries. We have 4 power districts so the CP6 was far cheaper than 4 circuit breakers, I also work at a museum where there are 42 breakers (I think) and one buzzer. It is a real problem figuring out where the short is, with the CP6 we have an immediate indication. I'm thinking maybe a sensor that goes off because it detects light. 

The restaurant is the White Fence Farm in Lakewood Colorado, we get 200-400 visitors from the restaurant when the layout is running.


From: "john dunn john.p.dunn@... [WiringForDCC]"
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2017 2:36:25 PM
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Audible Alarm for shorts

 


   Here is another option for shutting down. Wire your track through a Digitrax PM42 or a similar device. You would be able to wire up to 4 tracks or 4 blocks with it. If you still want a buzzer, wire a low voltage, low wattage relay across the rails and use it's NC contacts to switch on a buzzer when the track power is opened by the auto auto-circuit breaker. 
   There are a number of auto circuit breakers available that may better fit your needs. 
   The brake light bulbs are very useful if they are visible. They even encourage a crescendo of Short, SHORT, short, from the viewers but they are ineffective if they are hidden.
   Where is this popular restaurant. Just for the trains mind you, just the trains.
john


On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 2:54 PM, "ed_sargent@... [WiringForDCC]" wrote:




Our club is using NCE CP6 for circuit protection (tail light bulbs), because of the large number of visitors (we are in a popular restaurant)  and the fact that half the layout is in a separate room we would like to add a buzzer system to alert us when there is a short. Because of the crowds and a lift up bridge it takes a while to reach the command station. We are installing emergency shut offs so the power can be cut quickly but if we don't know there is a short it maybe too late. We did have an incident where the light was on long enough that the smell of smoke was our first clue  (the CP6 was not in your line of sight).







Re: Audible Alarm for shorts

Thomas
 

I would think you could use photocells to monitor the bulbs.
When  bulb lights it would be easy to have a circuit triggered
by the photocells to sound a buzzer or even disconnect power.
Tom



From: "ed_sargent@... [WiringForDCC]"
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2017 2:54 PM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Audible Alarm for shorts

 
Our club is using NCE CP6 for circuit protection (tail light bulbs), because of the large number of visitors (we are in a popular restaurant)  and the fact that half the layout is in a separate room we would like to add a buzzer system to alert us when there is a short. Because of the crowds and a lift up bridge it takes a while to reach the command station. We are installing emergency shut offs so the power can be cut quickly but if we don't know there is a short it maybe too late. We did have an incident where the light was on long enough that the smell of smoke was our first clue  (the CP6 was not in your line of sight).
__._,_




Re: Audible Alarm for shorts

Kurt Konrath
 

Have you thought of adding something like a Piezo Transducer in the circuit with light bulb.  The make an annoying buzz when powered

Kurt


On Sep 6, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Thomas Stephens deerpen4@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 

I would think you could use photocells to monitor the bulbs.
When  bulb lights it would be easy to have a circuit triggered
by the photocells to sound a buzzer or even disconnect power.
Tom



From: "ed_sargent@... [WiringForDCC]" <WiringForDCC@...>
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2017 2:54 PM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Audible Alarm for shorts

 
Our club is using NCE CP6 for circuit protection (tail light bulbs), because of the large number of visitors (we are in a popular restaurant)  and the fact that half the layout is in a separate room we would like to add a buzzer system to alert us when there is a short. Because of the crowds and a lift up bridge it takes a while to reach the command station. We are installing emergency shut offs so the power can be cut quickly but if we don't know there is a short it maybe too late. We did have an incident where the light was on long enough that the smell of smoke was our first clue  (the CP6 was not in your line of sight).
__._,_




Re: Audible Alarm for shorts

Edward Sargent
 

Are they adjustable, as I understand it there is always current going through the bulb just not enough to light it. When we had the 1amp bulbs they would glow a little with 1 sound loco, with 2 sound locos plus lighted cars the bulbs would consume all the power. Now we have the 1.75amp bulbs and we see no glow. These piezo transducers, if they buzz with little current then would it not be like tinnitus?


From: "Kurt kurt.konrath@... [WiringForDCC]"
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2017 10:19:05 AM
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Audible Alarm for shorts

 

Have you thought of adding something like a Piezo Transducer in the circuit with light bulb.  The make an annoying buzz when powered

Kurt


On Sep 6, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Thomas Stephens deerpen4@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 

I would think you could use photocells to monitor the bulbs.
When  bulb lights it would be easy to have a circuit triggered
by the photocells to sound a buzzer or even disconnect power.
Tom



From: "ed_sargent@... [WiringForDCC]" <WiringForDCC@...>
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2017 2:54 PM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Audible Alarm for shorts

 
Our club is using NCE CP6 for circuit protection (tail light bulbs), because of the large number of visitors (we are in a popular restaurant)  and the fact that half the layout is in a separate room we would like to add a buzzer system to alert us when there is a short. Because of the crowds and a lift up bridge it takes a while to reach the command station. We are installing emergency shut offs so the power can be cut quickly but if we don't know there is a short it maybe too late. We did have an incident where the light was on long enough that the smell of smoke was our first clue  (the CP6 was not in your line of sight).
__._,_





Buss Wiring

Greg Williams
 

I have just strung a 14 gauge DCC buss under the layout. The two wires are separated by about 6 inches at the closest. Do I need to re string the wires with a twist periodically? How close together should the twists be? What if I ran the wires close together, as in zip cord or speaker wire? I've read various things and am a little confused.


GregW66

Re: Buss Wiring

David Klemm
 

Greg,


Whether on my home layout, 12'x24', my club layout of 5000 square feet, or my Free-mo modules which are 2'x5', they all have the wires next to each other being pulled through the same holes.  


You are right, you will get see a lot of opinions from keep them apart, twist them, terminate them to it doesn't matter.   Since it works with all the above situations, not sure it really matters.  Don't waste your time worrying about it.  Wiring is a necessary evil to get to the fun part of driving a train.  No need to over think this piece or other pieces.  


David




From: WiringForDCC@... on behalf of gregw66@... [WiringForDCC]
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 8:16 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Buss Wiring
 
 

I have just strung a 14 gauge DCC buss under the layout. The two wires are separated by about 6 inches at the closest. Do I need to re string the wires with a twist periodically? How close together should the twists be? What if I ran the wires close together, as in zip cord or speaker wire? I've read various things and am a little confused.


GregW66

Re: Buss Wiring

Chris Richter
 

Mark Gurries has a great write-up.  I followed it to the letter and the results were excellent. I have cut & pasted a couple links to have a look at.  Place the end not in your drill in a strong vise - it works very well. I have merged 3 long lines of 12 GA red & black cable this way to twist them and have had no issues in making the "twisted pair" nor when installing (I pried apart the twist with a thin flat headed screwdriver to tap into the main bus to attach the sub bus using 3M Suitcase connectors). So far no problems with connectivity, etc.


Use a variable speed Drill on one end and a vice or a hook in a stud of some exposed wall on the other end.  Go slow, keep the cable stretched tight and over twist by 3x more than you need.  Why?   When you let go, it will unwind about that amount like a coiled spring.

https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/dcc-general-best-practices/wiring-planing/snubbers-rc-filter


Why called an RC filter as opposed to a snubber or terminator.  https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/dcc-general-best-practices/wiring-planing/snubbers-rc-filter/rc-filter-name-why



Re: Buss Wiring

AD
 

The confusion in wiring is not running 2 wires together to power a layout but when you wire 33or 64 wires to power the same layout. One wire to each of 36 blocks and a common or two wires to each block and they go thru two digitrax bdl168 detection devices.  My hope is that the problem of bundling those wires does not exist when i use 4-bxp88’s instead. Does anyone have any problem twisting wires using the new device?

Tony 


On Nov 17, 2017, at 10:39 AM, DAVID KLEMM davidklemm7511@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 

Greg,


Whether on my home layout, 12'x24', my club layout of 5000 square feet, or my Free-mo modules which are 2'x5', they all have the wires next to each other being pulled through the same holes.  


You are right, you will get see a lot of opinions from keep them apart, twist them, terminate them to it doesn't matter.   Since it works with all the above situations, not sure it really matters.  Don't waste your time worrying about it.  Wiring is a necessary evil to get to the fun part of driving a train.  No need to over think this piece or other pieces.  


David




From: WiringForDCC@... <WiringForDCC@...> on behalf of gregw66@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 8:16 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Buss Wiring
 
 

I have just strung a 14 gauge DCC buss under the layout. The two wires are separated by about 6 inches at the closest. Do I need to re string the wires with a twist periodically? How close together should the twists be? What if I ran the wires close together, as in zip cord or speaker wire? I've read various things and am a little confused.


GregW66

Re: Buss Wiring

dvollrath@...
 


The main bus feeder wires for DCC distribution should be run close together rather than two widely separated wires. Many will argue about the size of the wire and/or evidence that it works OK some other way. Best practice:
1. Select a wire size to reduce the overall voltage drop at rated booster current. This usually means 12-14 AWG. Obviously Scale and layout size dependent.   
2. Use twisted pair with 3-4 twists per foot. This reduces the effects of wiring inductance and radiated electrical interference to other circuits. It also requires them to be close together where 16 AWG 'zip cord' or speaker wire automatically does that. Fancy labeled speaker wire might be available in a larger gauge but will cost more that 12 AWG building wire.   
3. Add an R-C snubber/filter at the far end of each bus run away from the booster. 
4. Position the booster near the middle with bus runs out in 2 or more opposite directions rather than at one end. This minimizes the booster to load distance of the wiring.

DonV


---In WiringForDCC@..., <gregw66@...> wrote :

I have just strung a 14 gauge DCC buss under the layout. The two wires are separated by about 6 inches at the closest. Do I need to re string the wires with a twist periodically? How close together should the twists be? What if I ran the wires close together, as in zip cord or speaker wire? I've read various things and am a little confused.


GregW66

Re: Buss Wiring

AD
 

What’s a r-c snubber filter?
After what lengths does one us it
Where do get it

Tony


On Nov 17, 2017, at 10:55 AM, dvollrath@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 


The main bus feeder wires for DCC distribution should be run close together rather than two widely separated wires. Many will argue about the size of the wire and/or evidence that it works OK some other way. Best practice:
1. Select a wire size to reduce the overall voltage drop at rated booster current. This usually means 12-14 AWG. Obviously Scale and layout size dependent.   
2. Use twisted pair with 3-4 twists per foot. This reduces the effects of wiring inductance and radiated electrical interference to other circuits. It also requires them to be close together where 16 AWG 'zip cord' or speaker wire automatically does that. Fancy labeled speaker wire might be available in a larger gauge but will cost more that 12 AWG building wire.   
3. Add an R-C snubber/filter at the far end of each bus run away from the booster. 
4. Position the booster near the middle with bus runs out in 2 or more opposite directions rather than at one end. This minimizes the booster to load distance of the wiring.

DonV


---In WiringForDCC@..., <gregw66@...> wrote :

I have just strung a 14 gauge DCC buss under the layout. The two wires are separated by about 6 inches at the closest. Do I need to re string the wires with a twist periodically? How close together should the twists be? What if I ran the wires close together, as in zip cord or speaker wire? I've read various things and am a little confused.


GregW66

Re: Buss Wiring

David Klemm
 

Tony,


Googling r-c snubber filter gives you a description, picture and places to get it.


David




From: WiringForDCC@... on behalf of ANTHONY DALILEO bklyns_baseball_club@... [WiringForDCC]
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2017 9:59 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Re: Buss Wiring
 
 

What’s a r-c snubber filter?

After what lengths does one us it
Where do get it

Tony


On Nov 17, 2017, at 10:55 AM, dvollrath@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 


The main bus feeder wires for DCC distribution should be run close together rather than two widely separated wires. Many will argue about the size of the wire and/or evidence that it works OK some other way. Best practice:
1. Select a wire size to reduce the overall voltage drop at rated booster current. This usually means 12-14 AWG. Obviously Scale and layout size dependent.   
2. Use twisted pair with 3-4 twists per foot. This reduces the effects of wiring inductance and radiated electrical interference to other circuits. It also requires them to be close together where 16 AWG 'zip cord' or speaker wire automatically does that. Fancy labeled speaker wire might be available in a larger gauge but will cost more that 12 AWG building wire.   
3. Add an R-C snubber/filter at the far end of each bus run away from the booster. 
4. Position the booster near the middle with bus runs out in 2 or more opposite directions rather than at one end. This minimizes the booster to load distance of the wiring.

DonV


---In WiringForDCC@..., <gregw66@...> wrote :

I have just strung a 14 gauge DCC buss under the layout. The two wires are separated by about 6 inches at the closest. Do I need to re string the wires with a twist periodically? How close together should the twists be? What if I ran the wires close together, as in zip cord or speaker wire? I've read various things and am a little confused.


GregW66

Re: Buss Wiring

dvollrath@...
 


If your DCC bus runs are less than 35-40 ft away from the booster a snubber/filter is not really needed and nothing to worry about. For longer runs the suggested values are C = 0.1 uFD, 50-100 V, non-polarized (ceramic or paper-foil type) capacitor with a resistor of R = 100-150 Ohms, 1/2 Watt or larger rating. Wire both parts in series and then across the DCC bus. You can get parts like this from many electronic parts stores.

DonV  
 
---In WiringForDCC@..., <bklyns_baseball_club@...> wrote :

What’s a r-c snubber filter?
After what lengths does one us it
Where do get it

Tony


On Nov 17, 2017, at 10:55 AM, dvollrath@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 


The main bus feeder wires for DCC distribution should be run close together rather than two widely separated wires. Many will argue about the size of the wire and/or evidence that it works OK some other way. Best practice:
1. Select a wire size to reduce the overall voltage drop at rated booster current. This usually means 12-14 AWG. Obviously Scale and layout size dependent.   
2. Use twisted pair with 3-4 twists per foot. This reduces the effects of wiring inductance and radiated electrical interference to other circuits. It also requires them to be close together where 16 AWG 'zip cord' or speaker wire automatically does that. Fancy labeled speaker wire might be available in a larger gauge but will cost more that 12 AWG building wire.   
3. Add an R-C snubber/filter at the far end of each bus run away from the booster. 
4. Position the booster near the middle with bus runs out in 2 or more opposite directions rather than at one end. This minimizes the booster to load distance of the wiring.

DonV


---In WiringForDCC@..., <gregw66@...> wrote :

I have just strung a 14 gauge DCC buss under the layout. The two wires are separated by about 6 inches at the closest. Do I need to re string the wires with a twist periodically? How close together should the twists be? What if I ran the wires close together, as in zip cord or speaker wire? I've read various things and am a little confused.


GregW66

Re: Buss Wiring

Blair & Rasa
 

Y'know, this is more than a yahoo group.  It's also the portal to a great website, www.wiringfordcc.com, where all this information is available.  We should be posting links, like:

http://wiringfordcc.com/dcc_waveforms.htm

Just a point of view.

Blair


On 2017-11-17 11:15, dvollrath@... [WiringForDCC] wrote:

If your DCC bus runs are less than 35-40 ft away from the booster a snubber/filter is not really needed and nothing to worry about. For longer runs the suggested values are C = 0.1 uFD, 50-100 V, non-polarized (ceramic or paper-foil type) capacitor with a resistor of R = 100-150 Ohms, 1/2 Watt or larger rating. Wire both parts in series and then across the DCC bus. You can get parts like this from many electronic parts stores.

DonV  
 
---In WiringForDCC@..., wrote :

What’s a r-c snubber filter?
After what lengths does one us it
Where do get it

Tony

Sent from my iPad

On Nov 17, 2017, at 10:55 AM, dvollrath@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 


The main bus feeder wires for DCC distribution should be run close together rather than two widely separated wires. Many will argue about the size of the wire and/or evidence that it works OK some other way. Best practice:
1. Select a wire size to reduce the overall voltage drop at rated booster current. This usually means 12-14 AWG. Obviously Scale and layout size dependent.   
2. Use twisted pair with 3-4 twists per foot. This reduces the effects of wiring inductance and radiated electrical interference to other circuits. It also requires them to be close together where 16 AWG 'zip cord' or speaker wire automatically does that. Fancy labeled speaker wire might be available in a larger gauge but will cost more that 12 AWG building wire.   
3. Add an R-C snubber/filter at the far end of each bus run away from the booster. 
4. Position the booster near the middle with bus runs out in 2 or more opposite directions rather than at one end. This minimizes the booster to load distance of the wiring.

DonV


---In WiringForDCC@..., <gregw66@...> wrote :

I have just strung a 14 gauge DCC buss under the layout. The two wires are separated by about 6 inches at the closest. Do I need to re string the wires with a twist periodically? How close together should the twists be? What if I ran the wires close together, as in zip cord or speaker wire? I've read various things and am a little confused.


GregW66


Re: Buss Wiring

dvollrath@...
 

Yeah, I know Blair.  I don't want to scare folks away with all that detail if it is unnecessary and can be avoided... which is the usual case on smaller 'home' sized layouts. DCC is supposed to be simple, and it is for most folks.


DonV



---In WiringForDCC@..., <smithbr@...> wrote :

Y'know, this is more than a yahoo group.  It's also the portal to a great website, www.wiringfordcc.com, where all this information is available.  We should be posting links, like:

http://wiringfordcc.com/dcc_waveforms.htm

Just a point of view.

Blair


On 2017-11-17 11:15, dvollrath@... [WiringForDCC] wrote:

If your DCC bus runs are less than 35-40 ft away from the booster a snubber/filter is not really needed and nothing to worry about. For longer runs the suggested values are C = 0.1 uFD, 50-100 V, non-polarized (ceramic or paper-foil type) capacitor with a resistor of R = 100-150 Ohms, 1/2 Watt or larger rating. Wire both parts in series and then across the DCC bus. You can get parts like this from many electronic parts stores.

DonV  
 
---In WiringForDCC@..., <bklyns_baseball_club@...> wrote :

What’s a r-c snubber filter?
After what lengths does one us it
Where do get it

Tony

Sent from my iPad

On Nov 17, 2017, at 10:55 AM, dvollrath@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 


The main bus feeder wires for DCC distribution should be run close together rather than two widely separated wires. Many will argue about the size of the wire and/or evidence that it works OK some other way. Best practice:
1. Select a wire size to reduce the overall voltage drop at rated booster current. This usually means 12-14 AWG. Obviously Scale and layout size dependent.   
2. Use twisted pair with 3-4 twists per foot. This reduces the effects of wiring inductance and radiated electrical interference to other circuits. It also requires them to be close together where 16 AWG 'zip cord' or speaker wire automatically does that. Fancy labeled speaker wire might be available in a larger gauge but will cost more that 12 AWG building wire.   
3. Add an R-C snubber/filter at the far end of each bus run away from the booster. 
4. Position the booster near the middle with bus runs out in 2 or more opposite directions rather than at one end. This minimizes the booster to load distance of the wiring.

DonV


---In WiringForDCC@..., <gregw66@...> wrote :

I have just strung a 14 gauge DCC buss under the layout. The two wires are separated by about 6 inches at the closest. Do I need to re string the wires with a twist periodically? How close together should the twists be? What if I ran the wires close together, as in zip cord or speaker wire? I've read various things and am a little confused.


GregW66


Re: Buss Wiring

Jerry Michels
 

3. Add an R-C snubber/filter at the far end of each bus run away from the booster. 

UNLESS you use current detection for signaling.  We installed over 30 of these, then tore them all out because they put a load on the system which is detected by the signaling system.

Jerry Michels
Amarillo Railroad Museum

Re: Buss Wiring

Steve Haas
 



>>>>3. Add an R-C snubber/filter at the far end of each bus run away from the booster. <<<<

 

>>>> UNLESS you use current detection for signaling.  We installed over 30 of these, then tore them all out because they put a load on the system which is detected by the signaling system. <<<<

 

Whoa!

 

Properly installed R-C snubbers/filters should not have any impact on current detection signaling.   R-C snubbers/filters _will_ cause problems if they are installed between your detection device and the rails, but that’s not the right place to install them.

 

Your R-C Snubbers should work just fine if they are installed before the current detection occupancy device.  This has been discussed recently on one of the DCC lists, but I can’t find the reference at the moment. 

 

Booster>Circuit Breaker>Bus>R-C Filter>occupancy detector>local block bus.

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

Steve Haas

Snoqualmie, WA