Date   
Re: Bus wiring/large scale with 10A boosters

Mark Gurries
 

No I did not miss your name at all.  That fact you left the topic out was the flag.

People may not remember your comments from before as in make a connection between past discussions and this one.  New members definitely will not.



On Jan 17, 2015, at 12:48 PM, len.jask@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

Mark,

Inductance is a concern and voltage spikes are not to be tolerated! You might have missed my name in all the many 'snubber' posts in the past. Calculating voltage drops is straightforward. Calculating inductance and the voltage spikes would take extensive math, well beyond my skills in engineering! Transmission lines in power is a highly specialized realm. For simplicity I will take true measurements with an O-scope to verify the integrity of the track voltage!

I still stand firmly as to the terminology of 'Snubber'  vs. RC filter! A snubber is used to supress voltage spikes and designed for the particular operating frequency. Especially in a power realm! A RC filter can be both pass or bypass and designed for specific frequencies.

Regards,

Len Jaskiewicz


Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Re: Bus wiring/large scale with 10A boosters

jazzmanlj
 

Hi Mark,

This will be my approach but I need a better scope to trigger on the pulses.

Take segments of wire at some pre-determined length attached to a test track with a running locomotive. Compare the booster output signal to the test track signal for degradation. Add a RC network if needed. Apply a short across the track and verify shutdown and recovery.

 Add another section of wire and repeat the test and keep repeating to see how far I can really extend the wiring.

If I just follow the 30' recommendation it would take lots of boosters. In the actual layout wiring I don't want it underrated but also trying to avoid an overkill and excessive wiring. Naturally testing will be done on the actual layout. 1000'+ of track on near 3/4 acre is a lot of outdoor wiring.

Thought and comments greatly appreciated.

Regards to all,

Len Jaskiewicz



Re: Bus wiring/large scale with 10A boosters

Max Maginness
 

Len

 

I’m sure you have thought about this, but how will you maintain track and wheel conditions for reliable electrical contact  in an  outside environment

 

Max

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2015 5:27 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Bus wiring/large scale with 10A boosters

 

 

Hi Mark,

This will be my approach but I need a better scope to trigger on the pulses.

Take segments of wire at some pre-determined length attached to a test track with a running locomotive. Compare the booster output signal to the test track signal for degradation. Add a RC network if needed. Apply a short across the track and verify shutdown and recovery.

 Add another section of wire and repeat the test and keep repeating to see how far I can really extend the wiring.

If I just follow the 30' recommendation it would take lots of boosters. In the actual layout wiring I don't want it underrated but also trying to avoid an overkill and excessive wiring. Naturally testing will be done on the actual layout. 1000'+ of track on near 3/4 acre is a lot of outdoor wiring.

Thought and comments greatly appreciated.

Regards to all,

Len Jaskiewicz

 

 


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Re: Bus Wiring....

Brian Eiland
 

I wish it was as simple to make a copy of this discussion!!! Maybe its just my stupidity and lack of understanding this 'computer world, but when I 'copied' this section and tried to place it in a text document I could print, the margins are all off such that the text does not fit on a page correctly.

I wanted to print this out so I could have a copy in front of me all the time!

Sorry for my rant at these 'computer/software' compatibilities?
Brian

On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 11:35 AM, asychis@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:
 

Allan, It is refreshing to read something simple and straightforward.  No math, no equipment, no engineering, no philosophy, just a simple quarter!  Simple is usually the best. Jerry Michels


Re: headlight in DCC

fernando nunes
 

Well, I’ve already find out how to keep the headlight on in both directions, in an ESU decoder V4.0: CV31=16, CV32=2 and CV346=3. Paul, CV33 applies to Digitrax decoders or to ESU standard decoders, so far as I know (CVs 33-46/7: function mapping).


Fernando

Re: Bus Wiring....

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

Brian, It is all moving into the direction of a paperless society. (^_^) Yep… the print-the-page concept also captures all the junk and is usually not compatible with what you want to see. [Likewise a simple print-out of local movie house show times on a single page is almost impossible. We’re supposed to be “always connected”.]

 

Forget about fighting with Yahoo. Copy & paste always works with MS Outlook email messages and it should work with other e-mail programs.

 

This is where using the mouse if far superior to touch-pads or touch-screens. Open up a page in your favorite text editor (MSWord or whatever). Then go back to the forum messages and highlight the text with your mouse cursor then try the CTRL+C (copy) then CTRL+V (paste) trick to copy & paste what you want into your personal file. You should be able to re-edit to clean it up using the text editor after you get it there. Save it with a filename you will remember. You can also add more info at a later date to that same file.

 

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2015 8:43 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Re: Bus Wiring....

 




I wish it was as simple to make a copy of this discussion!!! Maybe its just my stupidity and lack of understanding this 'computer world, but when I 'copied' this section and tried to place it in a text document I could print, the margins are all off such that the text does not fit on a page correctly.


I wanted to print this out so I could have a copy in front of me all the time!

 

Sorry for my rant at these 'computer/software' compatibilities?
Brian

 

On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 11:35 AM, asychis@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 

Allan, It is refreshing to read something simple and straightforward.  No math, no equipment, no engineering, no philosophy, just a simple quarter!  Simple is usually the best. Jerry Michels

 




How are people wiring their layouts?

R. Swieder
 

I am new to this discussion group so forgive me if I am asking a question that has already been answered - if so just point me to the answer.  Best advice seems to have a track drop every other track section which is connected to a main ( or section ) Buss.  All of the examples I see show nice simple wiring - usually 3 or 4 drops per 4 foot section.  I have 2 - 9 foot long, 5 track wide, back to back double ended yards with a double ladder separating them. All switch are controlled by tortoises.  Assuming 2 drops per track and 1 for each tortoise that is a lot of wire in a relatively small area.  Does anyone have suggestions on "best practices", wire routing, etc. to keep this all organized and maintainable?

Bob Swieder


Re: How are people wiring their layouts?

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

Yes Bob... that does seem like a lot of wires. But there are also a lot of tracks. You will probably mount the yard track switches firmly to the roadbed at each end of the yards as is typical for Tortoise operation. So be sure to allow for table/track expansion/shrinkage differences between track and the sub roadbed due to temperature or humidity changes, particularly if the yard tracks are straight. This means there should be unsoldered rail joiners and/or slight rail gaps on each 9 foot yard track to allow for some movement as you assemble them. The most fool-proof long-term way would be to assemble each yard track using 3 ft sections of flex track (cut to fit) with slip-joint metal rail joiners between sections and the turnout switches. Then solder 20-22 ga rail droppers at about the midpoint (not critical) to the rails of each track section. Under the layout make a sub-bus to connect all the droppers from each N or S rail together using 18 ga wire. If you plan on allowing for disconnect switches wire up those sub-busses separately to follow the rails of each yard track. Then connect those to your DCC mains supply. If you will not have any disconnect switches, simply connect all the N and S rail droppers from all 5 tracks together at each 1/3rd of the way location, then connect those to the main DCC bus feeder (or circuit breaker, take your pick). Either way, you will have the most reliable electrical connection to each rail with no surprise rail kinking. [From your 9 ft yard track dimension I’m assuming HO scale. If you are using larger or smaller scale adjust my suggestions of wire size accordingly.]

 

Plan ahead also at the yard switches. Use slip joint rail joiners between switches and provide track power droppers at each stock rail on each switch. Power routing types of switches may require insulated joiners. Do some research.

If the yard tracks are curved, sideways expansion/contraction can occur more gracefully. You could get by by soldering the rail joiners at each flex track section of yard track and providing a single set of track droppers somewhere near in the middle of each yard track. (4 ½ ft from dropper to end)

 

Caution – Believe what me and others say about relying on carrying current through slip-on metal rail joiners. You can put it all together using new rails and rail joiners and a minimum of track power droppers and it might work OK for several weeks or months. But as time goes on … you will eventually have no end of intermittent poor electrical connection grief. This also goes for the rail joiners with track dropper wires already attached. The connection to the rails is actually through a slip-on joint (!).

 

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 12:17 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] How are people wiring their layouts?

 



I am new to this discussion group so forgive me if I am asking a question that has already been answered - if so just point me to the answer.  Best advice seems to have a track drop every other track section which is connected to a main ( or section ) Buss.  All of the examples I see show nice simple wiring - usually 3 or 4 drops per 4 foot section.  I have 2 - 9 foot long, 5 track wide, back to back double ended yards with a double ladder separating them. All switch are controlled by tortoises.  Assuming 2 drops per track and 1 for each tortoise that is a lot of wire in a relatively small area.  Does anyone have suggestions on "best practices", wire routing, etc. to keep this all organized and maintainable?

Bob Swieder

 




Re: Gap alignment

JBJudy
 

Just reading you response to a question I am wondering about. You say the gaps don't have to be directly opposite - close is OK. Could you elaborate on "close"? If they aren't opposite, wouldn't that cause a double trip? I'm new to DCC, so if the answer is obvious, please excuse my drilling down on the subject.

Re: Gap alignment

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

As a truck with two power pick-up axles bridges a gap on either rail isolating an auto-reversing section of track an electrical connection is developed on that rail between the two sections. If they are of opposite polarity, the AR unit senses this as a short circuit and quickly reverses the polarity of both rails the reversing section to correct the problem. Once that is completed the job is done. It doesn’t make any differences which isolating gap on which rail is ‘jumpered’ first. The polarity of both rails of the reversing section now match that of the main. No further shorts are caused at that end of the reversing tracks by other trucks or steel wheels crossing or jumpering either one of the gaps. You can prove that to yourself using lightbulbs and manually applied temporary jumper wires.

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 8:50 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: RE: [WiringForDCC] Gap alignment

 



Just reading you response to a question I am wondering about. You say the gaps don't have to be directly opposite - close is OK. Could you elaborate on "close"? If they aren't opposite, wouldn't that cause a double trip? I'm new to DCC, so if the answer is obvious, please excuse my drilling down on the subject.


Re: How are people wiring their layouts?

asychis@...
 

A very BIG  yes to DonV's comment.  If not taken to heart this will bedevil you like nothing else!  Unless you want to court aggravation, solder drops to any section of track that is not soldered to a section of track with drops.  The intermittent nature of the break in power due to rail joiners slipping is the real frustration.
 
Jerry Michels  
 
"Believe what me and others say about relying on carrying current through slip-on metal rail joiners. You can put it all together using new rails and rail joiners and a minimum of track power droppers and it might work OK for several weeks or months. But as time goes on … you will eventually have no end of intermittent poor electrical connection grief. This also goes for the rail joiners with track dropper wires already attached. The connection to the rails is actually through a slip-on joint (!).

DonV "

Re: How are people wiring their layouts?

Annette and Dante Fuligni
 

Bob,

I would temper Don’s advice according to your situation. If you have a controlled environment for your layout that minimizes expansion and contraction, and if you use track joiners that are very tight-fitting (not Atlas), you don’t need that profusion of power feeders. I have Walthers/Shinohara Code 83 flex and turnouts including their joiners. The only soldered joints are on curves. Prior to joining the components I treated each rail end with No-Ox. I feed turnouts only if a power source is needed because of otherwise-required turnout isolation. The layout has been operative for 2-½ years with no power problems yet. Remember that you can always add feeders if problems develop later.

Dante

P.S. I recently observed a hobby shop layout that was converted to DCC (air-conditioned space in Florida). The “last” of very few feeders served a double-tracked main with sidings and a return loop that extended at least 40’ from the feeders. Save yourself a lot of time, energy and expense, if you can.

Re: Bus Wiring....

asychis@...
 

Curious, I have no problem highlighting all  the messages in a given digest and pasting into Word.  Are you using digest mode?  It might help.  Jerry Michels

Re: How are people wiring their layouts?

Ace Flier II
 

I am with you Jerry.... My thinking would be drop the feeders no matter what... even if you decide not to tie them into a bus at this time. My thinking is what if the issue arises on a section of track that is hard to reach or inside a tunnel.... When I asked for advise about how to run my buses and the fact that I have broken my small layout into 4 blocks and was using 14ga for my bus wiring.... I was told it was OVERKILL.... well as much fun as it is for me to figure out the layout wiring and wiring my Cobalt Switch Machines..... I really want to spend most of my time running trains and working or the Scenery... not redoing things because I cut a few bucks.... All this in my Humble but Correct Opinion

Ace  

Re: How are people wiring their layouts?

Mark Gurries
 

It does not matter if you have a controlled environment or not.   

Unless you have soldered the rail joiner to the rail properly, oxidation inside the rail joiner connection will take place because rail joiners do not provide an "air tight" metal to metal connection. It is a chemical reaction problem with the metal and oxygen.  The very same reason why you have to clean your track is happening inside the rail joint connection too.   Given you cannot clean the rail joiners, you stuck with a time bomb. 

Humidity changes is what causes wood to move (under the track) and place mechanical stress on the track with the weak point in the track being the rail joiners.  Increase in humidity will cause the wood to expand and and decrease will cause the wood to shrink.  


If you do not solder the rail joiners the rail will move inside the rail joint which you see changes in the gap spacing between the rails at the rail joint.  A un-soldered free moving rail joint is great in relieving the mechanical stress but unfortunately also cause the rail joiner itself to move too.  A moving contact is not a stable contact and exposes the rail to more air.

Soldering the rail joint eliminates the oxidation problem but allows the mechanical stress to build up in the track resulting in broken solder joints of sudden shift in track aliighment.   The stress is trying to find a relief mechnism.

All a control environment will do is reduce the mechanical forces (stress) the layout construction material (wood) places on the given sections of track and corresponding rail joints.  If the humidity is keep constant year round and the wood has stabilized to the environment, then the wood will not move.  Any soldered rail joint connection will not break apart.   But operating such a layout in this environment is very rare.  A typical house will experience humidity changes with the seasons.  Humidity is the variable that directly effects the wood for the wood absorbs and releases humidity.

So your stuck with long term oxidation failure who’s "mean time to failure" will vary with the humidity changes in the layout room and the number of cycles they go through.

The highest reliability will occur when you soldering feeders directly to the each rail of a given section of track such that your are not depending on the rail joiner for electrical continuity.  You can leave them unsoldered allowing the rail joiners to be free to move and reduce mechnical stress on the track.  Their sole purpose is reduced to keeping the rails mechanically aligned with each other.

A compromise it a combination of both.  Solder a feeder when you pass two rail joints but leave a unsolder rail joint on the 3rd for expansion.   The section of track between the two feeders will depend on the rail joiners on each end for continuity.   Failure will require both rail joiners to break apart of the same rail.  This allows single fault protection and reduces the number of track feeder you need to install at the expense of soldering rail joiners.





On Jan 22, 2015, at 7:08 AM, Annette and Dante Fuligni dfuligni2144@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

Bob,

I would temper Don’s advice according to your situation. If you have a controlled environment for your layout that minimizes expansion and contraction, and if you use track joiners that are very tight-fitting (not Atlas), you don’t need that profusion of power feeders. I have Walthers/Shinohara Code 83 flex and turnouts including their joiners. The only soldered joints are on curves. Prior to joining the components I treated each rail end with No-Ox. I feed turnouts only if a power source is needed because of otherwise-required turnout isolation. The layout has been operative for 2-½ years with no power problems yet. Remember that you can always add feeders if problems develop later.

Dante

P.S. I recently observed a hobby shop layout that was converted to DCC (air-conditioned space in Florida). The “last” of very few feeders served a double-tracked main with sidings and a return loop that extended at least 40’ from the feeders. Save yourself a lot of time, energy and expense, if you can.

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Re: How are people wiring their layouts?

emrldsky
 

Also, it depends on just how you expect to use your layout. If you expect to have friends over and run their equipment on your layout, you owe it to them to have the most bullet proof layout you can manage. This means using powered frogs for the turnouts. If this is not done, then anyone running the older, smaller engines, a 4-4-0 for example, can expect it to stall on the turnouts. Some larger engines do also.

Peace,

Mike G.


Re: 1/18/2015 4:47:35 AM

William E. Davies <wedavies@...>
 

When I went to the url I received the following message:

Bandwidth Limit Exceeded

The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to the site owner reaching his/her bandwidth limit. Please try again later.
Apache Server at www.dcellent.com Port 80












On 17-Jan-15 23:47, 'Graham Logan' g.logan950@... [WiringForDCC] wrote:
 

Re: 1/18/2015 4:47:35 AM

Craig Zeni
 

On Jan 22, 2015, at 4:42 PM, 'William E. Davies' wedavies@... [WiringForDCC] wrote:



When I went to the url I received the following message:

Bandwidth Limit Exceeded

The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to the site owner reaching his/her bandwidth limit. Please try again later.
Apache Server at www.dcellent.com Port 80
You should be grateful. That looks like a 100% spammy link to put a nice trojan or virus on your machine...

Craig Zeni
Cary NC

Re: 1/18/2015 4:47:35 AM

rg <richg_1998@...>
 

The URL in the message body with suspect Subject line is a sure indication some clueless user got hacked. have seen this a number of times.
Obvious Man pointed that out to me a few years ago.

i never, ever click on the message.
The hacked user has to change their password.

Just posting the link here could bring down the wrath of Yahoo. Seen it before.

Rich
 
Failure is not an option. it comes bundled with Windows.

Re: Bus Wiring.... Printing

Glenn
 

Are you using WordPad or Notepad? I do not remember which did what, however one will wrap text, the other will not giving you very long lines. As my PC (WinXP) they are both under “Accessories”.

 

An alternative would be to that that not known item “Print Screen”. Press that, then open something like “Paint” and paste into that program. You will get exactly what you see on the screen, but it will be a picture.

 

As for Highlighting, bold test, etc, not all email systems are capable of this, it does not matter if you can the receiver may not be able to see it. Especially the online email systems.

 

When I want to have something notice, I try to use something to set it off like “ “, or > <, and even () rather than bold, underline, or italics.

 

I am fortunate that when I retired, my work laptop also retired with me, I had the luxury of having WinXP Pro and Office Pro installed.

 

Unfortunately the cheapest form of Outlook is part of the Office Home and Business suite retailing at $219.00. The cheaper Home and Student does not have it.

 

Glenn

 


From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2015 09:43
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Re: Bus Wiring....

 




I wish it was as simple to make a copy of this discussion!!! Maybe its just my stupidity and lack of understanding this 'computer world, but when I 'copied' this section and tried to place it in a text document I could print, the margins are all off such that the text does not fit on a page correctly.


I wanted to print this out so I could have a copy in front of me all the time!

 

Sorry for my rant at these 'computer/software' compatibilities?
Brian

 

On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 11:35 AM, asychis@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 

Allan, It is refreshing to read something simple and straightforward.  No math, no equipment, no engineering, no philosophy, just a simple quarter!  Simple is usually the best. Jerry Michels