Date   
Re: Buss Wiring Through Metal Studs

Glenn
 

I don’t know why, but an electrician was drilling holes through metal studs then inserting grommets even when running other wires through pre-punched holes. The wires he was running were small gauge, probably a sound system.

 

I had to ask. He said the pre-punched holes were “clean” while the drilled holes were ragged and could cut the insulation.

 

Glenn


From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2014 17:28
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: RE: [WiringForDCC] Buss Wiring Through Metal Studs

 




There should be no real issues as long as you use twisted pairs for the DCC busses and feeders and always run the wire pairs through the same hole in the metallic studs.

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2014 3:23 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Buss Wiring Through Metal Studs

 



I am building a new layout that will be raised and lowered by using a hoist system in my garage. To lower the weight of the benchwork I used metal studs. Can I drill holes in the metal studs and run the buss wires through the studs. Any help would greatly be appreciated.



 


Re: Buss Wiring Through Metal Studs

john
 

Metal studs,
   I have never considered using metal studs. They have a wonderful strength / weight ratio and warpage shouldn't be a problem if it is braced. You may want to use the insulators and grommets that are commercially available because the cut out holes are usually sharp enough to cut meat, including fingers.
   How about keeping us informed on your progress, problems, and successes you have.


On Monday, November 17, 2014 5:27 PM, "'Vollrath, Don' dvollrath@... [WiringForDCC]" wrote:




There should be no real issues as long as you use twisted pairs for the DCC busses and feeders and always run the wire pairs through the same hole in the metallic studs.
DonV
 
From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2014 3:23 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Buss Wiring Through Metal Studs
 



I am building a new layout that will be raised and lowered by using a hoist system in my garage. To lower the weight of the benchwork I used metal studs. Can I drill holes in the metal studs and run the buss wires through the studs. Any help would greatly be appreciated.







Re: Buss Wiring Through Metal Studs

Michael Murray
 

You may want to consider installing bushings to prevent the wire’s insulation from potentially becoming damaged.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw7cavIpgm4

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2014 2:28 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: RE: [WiringForDCC] Buss Wiring Through Metal Studs

 

 

There should be no real issues as long as you use twisted pairs for the DCC busses and feeders and always run the wire pairs through the same hole in the metallic studs.

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2014 3:23 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Buss Wiring Through Metal Studs

 





I am building a new layout that will be raised and lowered by using a hoist system in my garage. To lower the weight of the benchwork I used metal studs. Can I drill holes in the metal studs and run the buss wires through the studs. Any help would greatly be appreciated.





Re: Buss Wiring Through Metal Studs

Bob H <rehandjr@...>
 

Take care where the wire passes through the hole in the metal studs that the insulation does not wear off.  A grommet of some sort would be advised.

---- Original Message ----
From: "banjopaul2@... [WiringForDCC]" <WiringForDCC@...>
Sent: 11/17/2014 5:25:05 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Buss Wiring Through Metal Studs

 

I am building a new layout that will be raised and lowered by using a hoist system in my garage. To lower the weight of the benchwork I used metal studs. Can I drill holes in the metal studs and run the buss wires through the studs. Any help would greatly be appreciated.


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Forget previous vote

Re: programing a decoder thats not in a loco

Mark Gurries
 

Len

I understand you point.  However if I was to do motor tuning, I would do it with the decoder installed so that the tuning is done working with the actual target motor.   Using a different motor to tune will not give you the results you want and you will have to re-tune again when you installed the decoder..

A better way to say this is that programming with a resistor for a motor load is fine but one should avoid doing any type of motor tuning until the decoder is installed a connected to the target motor.

As stated your "No No" falsely “implies" there is some bad electrical reason that can damage the decoder which I know you know is not true.


Everyone

From a pure resistance value point of view, the resistance value must allow enough current to pass the minimum programming acknowledge pulse current of 60ma but high enough so that it does not exceed the decoder current rating.

Stated another way, for a 1Amp decoder running on 12V, any resistance value between 12 and 200 ohms will work.

HOWEVER from a safest and practical thermal standpoint, I would ONLY use a 200 Ohms 1 Watt resistor* because going any lower in resistance value will cause the resistor to get hotter and require a physically larger resistor with a higher watt rating as well as increase the cost with nothing gained.  Using a resistor with a less than a 1 watt rating will potentially cause the resistor to burn up IF you decide to test the motor control after the programming is complete.   

EXCEPTION:  In cases where one is using a full decoder as a FUNCTION ONLY decoder to control lights such as installed in a caboose where there is no motor, then there is the option of using a much smaller resistor, such as a 1/4 watt rating, provided you follow this one RULE.    RULE: You enable the speed table and turn all the speed steps to zero.  That way if you attempt to run the decoder like a engine with speed commands, the motor output will remain at 0 and do nothing.  The only time the resistor will be used is on the programming track where the resistor will never generate any heat of any consequence when it is used to generate the acknowledge current pulse.

Hope this helps clarifies things for everyone.


On Nov 17, 2014, at 1:17 PM, len.jask@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

I use mostly ZIMO decoders and the no-no was through their USA distributor. A lot has to do with speed testing and back EMF that the decoder is looking for.  A resistor can't provide back EMF. I use an old chassis and have it set on test rollers. Since adjusting speed is part of the decoder programming why use a resistor? My logic.


Len Jaskiewicz


Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



STEPHEN LAMB v

Stephen Lamb
 

Shorting across power districts

wrhastings@...
 

I'm trying to get our new club layout up and running for an upcoming holiday open-house. The mainline loop is broken into 3 power districts. Each district is fed by a NCE PB-110A booster, through a PSX circuit breaker. Each booster has it's own power supply. The problem I'm seeing occurs when a locomotive crosses these power districts. While the loco is bridging the districts, the PSX's both trip. Pushing the loco past the gaps allows the breakers to reset and the everything is normal. I thought I might have reversed the polarity on one of the districts, so I switched them, but got the same results.


Bill Hastings


Re: Shorting across power districts

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

Bill be sure to connect up booster common wires between the three boosters. For the 10 amp NCE PB110 units you need to open them up and connect up the grounding screw inside. Check the manual. Also verify the trip point of the PSX breakers are at an appropriate setting. Hopefully you are in O scale or larger to be using 10 amp boosters.

DonV

On Nov 27, 2014, at 9:42 AM, wrhastings@...<mailto:wrhastings@...> [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...<mailto:WiringForDCC@...>> wrote:




I'm trying to get our new club layout up and running for an upcoming holiday open-house. The mainline loop is broken into 3 power districts. Each district is fed by a NCE PB-110A booster, through a PSX circuit breaker. Each booster has it's own power supply. The problem I'm seeing occurs when a locomotive crosses these power districts. While the loco is bridging the districts, the PSX's both trip. Pushing the loco past the gaps allows the breakers to reset and the everything is normal. I thought I might have reversed the polarity on one of the districts, so I switched them, but got the same results.


Bill Hastings

Re: Shorting across power districts

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

Bill you can verify the booster polarity by placing a small 14-16V lamp across the rail gaps isolating the booster districts. If it lights when placed across gaps in the same rail the polarity is reversed. If no light then polarity is OK. The lamp should light when placed diagonally across the rail gaps when the booster common is connected properly.

DonV

On Nov 27, 2014, at 9:42 AM, wrhastings@...<mailto:wrhastings@...> [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...<mailto:WiringForDCC@...>> wrote:




I'm trying to get our new club layout up and running for an upcoming holiday open-house. The mainline loop is broken into 3 power districts. Each district is fed by a NCE PB-110A booster, through a PSX circuit breaker. Each booster has it's own power supply. The problem I'm seeing occurs when a locomotive crosses these power districts. While the loco is bridging the districts, the PSX's both trip. Pushing the loco past the gaps allows the breakers to reset and the everything is normal. I thought I might have reversed the polarity on one of the districts, so I switched them, but got the same results.


Bill Hastings

Re: Shorting across power districts

Steve McKee
 

I had that same exact problem on my layout just before the last narrow gauge convention on my layout which is almost a club size layout. Everything was working fine the way I had it and then I had your problem. My friend Mark found out that you have to ground the extra power boxes to the each other by putting a screw in the bottom of the metal box and grounding them to each other. We did that and the problem was solved. Steve McKee

Re: Shorting across power districts

wrhastings@...
 

The booster common wire is a bit confusing. I noticed the comment in the manual, but it didn't give much detail. Do I just wire the 3 PB110 cases together?

We're running HO scale. Eventually, each booster will eventually connect to 4 PSX breakers - Upper level mainline, upper level sidings, lower level mainline, and lower level sidings.

Bill Hastings

Re: Shorting across power districts

Mark Gurries
 

On Nov 27, 2014, at 8:59 AM, wrhastings@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

The booster common wire is a bit confusing. I noticed the comment in the manual, but it didn't give much detail. Do I just wire the 3 PB110 cases together?

Yes and there is another step.  As Don stated in his email, you must verify the screw INSIDE the box is in the correct location.  This information is found in you PB110 Manual.

We're running HO scale. Eventually, each booster will eventually connect to 4 PSX breakers -

Do it sooner than latter.  You may burn something up.  There are some potential risk working with HO and PB110 boosters.



Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Help on wiring 3 way turnout with tortoise

vincent_roy75@...
 

Good day All,


I have a Peco N scale 3 way turnout that i want to install but I'm a bit confused on how to wire it.. I have read lots of things on the subject but I want to be 100% of what to do before actually doing it.


Here is my setup: My DCC system is NCE. All my other turnouts are connected to a Tortoise and an NCE Switch8 module.


So I have my two Tortoise for the 3 way turnout. Under the turnout, there is already two metal wires from the two frogs. Am I connecting those wire to the Pin#4 on the tortoise?


Any help would be appreciated!!


Thanks


Vince


Re: Shorting across power districts

wrhastings@...
 

Problem solved. I started out by connecting the boosters together. As part of that, I took Mark's suggestion to heart, and put a #1156 light bulb in series with each leg of the commons. Was still having shorting issues and started isolating shorter and shorter sections of track. Finally came down to a single section, with one turnout on it. Close inspections showed that one of the PC ties was not correctly gapped. Cut the proper gap, and everything is working as it should. Thanks for all of the help and comments.

Bill Hastings

Re: Shorting across power districts

asychis@...
 

DonV writes: "Bill you can verify the booster polarity by placing a small 14-16V lamp across the rail gaps isolating the booster districts. If it lights when placed across gaps in the same rail the polarity is reversed. If no light then polarity is OK. The lamp should light when placed diagonally across the rail gaps when the booster common is connected properly."
 
I would be 99.9% sure this is the problem.  On block is out of phase to the other. Jerry Mihels

Tortoise Position Indication with Bi-color LEDs

Dave Phillips
 

I am using two-lead bi-color LEDs to indicate the position of Tortoise switch machines. The LEDs are in series with the Tortoise switch motor. But the red and green indications do not appear equally bright to me. I can see no way to adjust the brightness of one color of two-lead LEDs, but it appears possible with three-lead LEDs by using different resistors in the green and red legs of the LED. The three-lead LED circuits I've seen are wired to the Tortoise auxiliary contacts, but I really like the simplicity of the LEDs in series with the switch motor.

I have seen a circuit by Don Vollrath that simulates a two-lead bi-color LED by connecting the anodes of two external diodes to the common cathode of a three-lead LED, and connecting the cathodes of the external diodes to the red and green leads of the three lead LED. Those two leads are then connected in the same way as a two lead bi-color LED in series with the switch motor.

If I do that, can I place a small trimming resistor in series with one of the external diodes to lower the brightness of the brighter color? I'm thinking that a resistor value that would drop the current 5 ma or so in the brighter color leg should do the trick. Also, is the voltage to the Tortoise reduced by the forward voltage drop of both the bi-color LED and one external diode, i.e., approximately dropping the voltage across the switch motor by about 4 Volts, for each simulated two-lead LED? This drop would need to be compensated for by increasing the voltage of the DC power supply.

I'm hoping this approach will work as I would really like to avoid wiring the LEDs to the auxiliary contacts on the Tortoise.

Thanks in advance.

Dave


Re: Tortoise Position Indication with Bi-color LEDs

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

Dave,

When placing LEDs in series with the Tortoise motor it is the resistance of the motor that limits and controls the current through the motor and LEDs, AFTER any voltage drop of the LEDs. The Tortoise requires a minimum of 4-5V to operate reliably... and even they will move very slowly. So anything more you place in series with the circuit will lower the motor voltage and operating speed. Most Tortoise control methods supply 10-12V so there is some room to play.

 

Yes, your suggested method of replacing the 2-lead bi-color variety with a 3-leaded version and the reversed external diodes across each color will convert the connection into a 2-lead design. Then adding a resistor in series with the too-bright color (probably Red) will tend to even out the color intensity. This will also lower the motor current and operating speed in that direction.

 

A better choice… as long as you are considering changing the indicator LEDs…  might be to simply select a different 2-leaded part that has better light intensity balance between the colors. Look in the catalogs for the intensity numbers (mcd @ the test ma) as a clue to the brightness. Don’t forget to look at the higher priced parts rather than just the bargain priced units.

 

There are also several methods of connecting up LEDs with diodes and resistors in parallel with the tortoise motor so that you can adjust the current through the individual LED colors independent of that flowing through the motor.

 

DonV    

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2014 6:31 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Tortoise Position Indication with Bi-color LEDs

 



I am using two-lead bi-color LEDs to indicate the position of Tortoise switch machines. The LEDs are in series with the Tortoise switch motor. But the red and green indications do not appear equally bright to me. I can see no way to adjust the brightness of one color of two-lead LEDs, but it appears possible with three-lead LEDs by using different resistors in the green and red legs of the LED. The three-lead LED circuits I've seen are wired to the Tortoise auxiliary contacts, but I really like the simplicity of the LEDs in series with the switch motor.

I have seen a circuit by Don Vollrath that simulates a two-lead bi-color LED by connecting the anodes of two external diodes to the common cathode of a three-lead LED, and connecting the cathodes of the external diodes to the red and green leads of the three lead LED. Those two leads are then connected in the same way as a two lead bi-color LED in series with the switch motor.

If I do that, can I place a small trimming resistor in series with one of the external diodes to lower the brightness of the brighter color? I'm thinking that a resistor value that would drop the current 5 ma or so in the brighter color leg should do the trick. Also, is the voltage to the Tortoise reduced by the forward voltage drop of both the bi-color LED and one external diode, i.e., approximately dropping the voltage across the switch motor by about 4 Volts, for each simulated two-lead LED? This drop would need to be compensated for by increasing the voltage of the DC power supply.

I'm hoping this approach will work as I would really like to avoid wiring the LEDs to the auxiliary contacts on the Tortoise.

Thanks in advance.

Dave

 




Re: Tortoise Position Indication with Bi-color LEDs

Thomas
 

Dave
Connect the anode of one diode and the cahtode of another diode together. Put a resistor in series with each diode. Tie the resistor free ends together. Put the results in series with the Bi-color LED. You could use trim pots until a final resistance value is selected. The circuit will conduct through one diode and resistor with one polarity and through the other diode and resistor with the other polarity. You can vary the resistance for the desired brightness.
Tom



From: "daphilli@... [WiringForDCC]"
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2014 7:31 PM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Tortoise Position Indication with Bi-color LEDs

 
I am using two-lead bi-color LEDs to indicate the position of Tortoise switch machines. The LEDs are in series with the Tortoise switch motor. But the red and green indications do not appear equally bright to me. I can see no way to adjust the brightness of one color of two-lead LEDs, but it appears possible with three-lead LEDs by using different resistors in the green and red legs of the LED. The three-lead LED circuits I've seen are wired to the Tortoise auxiliary contacts, but I really like the simplicity of the LEDs in series with the switch motor.

I have seen a circuit by Don Vollrath that simulates a two-lead bi-color LED by connecting the anodes of two external diodes to the common cathode of a three-lead LED, and connecting the cathodes of the external diodes to the red and green leads of the three lead LED. Those two leads are then connected in the same way as a two lead bi-color LED in series with the switch motor.

If I do that, can I place a small trimming resistor in series with one of the external diodes to lower the brightness of the brighter color? I'm thinking that a resistor value that would drop the current 5 ma or so in the brighter color leg should do the trick. Also, is the voltage to the Tortoise reduced by the forward voltage drop of both the bi-color LED and one external diode, i.e., approximately dropping the voltage across the switch motor by about 4 Volts, for each simulated two-lead LED? This drop would need to be compensated for by increasing the voltage of the DC power supply.

I'm hoping this approach will work as I would really like to avoid wiring the LEDs to the auxiliary contacts on the Tortoise.

Thanks in advance.

Dave

 












Re: Tortoise Position Indication with Bi-color LEDs

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

Dave… Tom clearly explains how to do it with the LEDs you have. The added diode drop will reduce the speed of the Tortoise and so will the added resistor(s) to trim the brightness. But try it and you might find it to be an acceptable solution.

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2014 9:18 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Tortoise Position Indication with Bi-color LEDs

 




Dave

Connect the anode of one diode and the cahtode of another diode together. Put a resistor in series with each diode. Tie the resistor free ends together. Put the results in series with the Bi-color LED. You could use trim pots until a final resistance value is selected. The circuit will conduct through one diode and resistor with one polarity and through the other diode and resistor with the other polarity. You can vary the resistance for the desired brightness.

Tom

 


From: "daphilli@... [WiringForDCC]" <WiringForDCC@...>
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2014 7:31 PM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Tortoise Position Indication with Bi-color LEDs

 

 

I am using two-lead bi-color LEDs to indicate the position of Tortoise switch machines. The LEDs are in series with the Tortoise switch motor. But the red and green indications do not appear equally bright to me. I can see no way to adjust the brightness of one color of two-lead LEDs, but it appears possible with three-lead LEDs by using different resistors in the green and red legs of the LED. The three-lead LED circuits I've seen are wired to the Tortoise auxiliary contacts, but I really like the simplicity of the LEDs in series with the switch motor.

I have seen a circuit by Don Vollrath that simulates a two-lead bi-color LED by connecting the anodes of two external diodes to the common cathode of a three-lead LED, and connecting the cathodes of the external diodes to the red and green leads of the three lead LED. Those two leads are then connected in the same way as a two lead bi-color LED in series with the switch motor.

If I do that, can I place a small trimming resistor in series with one of the external diodes to lower the brightness of the brighter color? I'm thinking that a resistor value that would drop the current 5 ma or so in the brighter color leg should do the trick. Also, is the voltage to the Tortoise reduced by the forward voltage drop of both the bi-color LED and one external diode, i.e., approximately dropping the voltage across the switch motor by about 4 Volts, for each simulated two-lead LED? This drop would need to be compensated for by increasing the voltage of the DC power supply.

I'm hoping this approach will work as I would really like to avoid wiring the LEDs to the auxiliary contacts on the Tortoise.

Thanks in advance.

Dave


 

 

 




Re: Tortoise Position Indication with Bi-color LEDs

rg <richg_1998@...>
 

When our club installed some Tortoise, I put a 20 ma red/green LED in series with one lead. No resistor needed. they draw about 15 ma.
Green, straight through.
Red diverging.

Rich

Failure is not an option. it comes bundled with Windows.