Date   
Re: Copper Clad Aluminum wire for track bus

Charles Brumbelow
 

High voltage high frequency is surface conduction, which is one reason long distance transmission lines are stranded - more surface area. Low voltage low frequency is through the wire. At least this is what an ancient often wrong memory tells me. Charles 

On Sep 26, 2014, at 4:24 PM, "SBB_BLS_Bahnen@... [WiringForDCC]" <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

Len, isn't conductivity a surface phenomenon? I would think the copper surface over the AL would have the same resistance characteristics as all copper. What am I missing from my physics education (maybe loss of memory :-) )
--
Tim
Timothy A Johnson, Tucson, AZ (www.sbb-bls-bahnen.com)
European Train Enthusiasts, Central Arizona Chapter (www.ete.org)

---In WiringForDCC@..., wrote :

The resistance is higher but not really double. Definitely less resistance than brass rail! If you go with heavier Al than Cu wire than it should be equivalent! Even without copper coating the voltages and currents are so low there should be negligible galvanic effect.

I doing a large scale layout and have mostly Al rails. Cheaper cost and better conductivity than brass!

 

Len Jaskiewicz

 

Re: Copper Clad Aluminum wire for track bus

Verryl
 

The conductivity is a surface phenomenon (skin effect) only at very high frequencies.  At the 15.7KHz (about as I remember) the skin effect is negligible, so the inner copper would do most of the conducting. 

The how to solder, clamp, etc is a bigger problem.  Your savings would probable evaporate with the number suitcase connectors needed (if they work).  Depending on the Al coating thickness, larger wire would not be needed (unless it was all Al wire).  A lot of trouble to file off the Al at each solder joint to get down to the copper to solder, I would think.

Verryl Fosnight

The purpose of the Yahoo Group at https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/WyoDivOps/    is for my convenience to manage invitations and reservations and to file documents about how to operate on the Wyoming Division.  It takes a lot of my time away from modeling to manage a session, and this Group will simplify it greatly for me.  This Group is NOT for general information, so I ask you NOT try to join unless you intend to operate occasionally.  That is why I limit membership to this Group to only those who might operate on the Wyoming Division.

I want to OK your membership to the new group if it is the right Group for you (as an operator), but since we become close operating together and communicating about the layout, I also need to know your name.  As soon as I get it and confirmation that you may someday operate, I will OK you.
If you only desire general information about the Wyoming Division, I have two other sites for those with general interest, and Lorne Noyes has a third.

Verryl Fosnight
Wyoming Division, a 4,000 sq foot HO layout for ops
  http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/wyoming_division/  and there is no approval requirement to
photos posted with extensive captions at http:/verrylvfosnightjr.slickpic.com

Re: Copper Clad Aluminum wire for track bus

jazzmanlj
 

Verryl,

Some engineers do take the skin effect into account even at 10kHz!  As a designer I consider this extreme and absurd. 50 to 100kHz might be a starting point and that is only if losses are really important!

The entire conductor evenly shares the current pretty much evenly below lets say 20kHz.

For copper clad Al, mechanicals connections are a must. Soldering is out of the question as the heat can 'evaporate' the Cu plating.

Len Jaskiewicz

Re: dedicated local bus drawing from Mark

Mark Gurries
 

On Sep 26, 2014, at 8:02 PM, colorose@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

At the "Wiring for DCC" website in the track wiring part II section, there is a drawing from Mark that shows how to wire a dedicated local bus to break the layout into blocks. It is what I would like to do to my new layout since I am just starting to lay track.
Here is the section where the drawing is located: Block Wiring for Large Layouts (V2.0)

I have a question about the wires going from the main bus to the local bus. Can someone tell me if the reason they look like two wires is to indicate a larger AWG required between the main and local bus?
What appears to you to be two small wires are actually the “edges" of a single larger wire that is light in color like white. The wire is the same gauge as the red wire and they are twisted together. My goal was to make sure this image was clear printed on a black and white printer.

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com

Uhlenbrock 62000 LocoNet Cable Tester

asychis@...
 

Anybody know of a US distributor for this tester, or have any comments about it?  I found one on ebay, but shipping from Germany was over $50.
 
Thanks!
 
Jerry Michels

Re: dedicated local bus drawing from Mark

Scott Rose
 

Thank you Mark. I can now see what you are talking about.


Regards,


Scott

-----Original Message-----
From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2014 8:37 PM
To: $WiringForDCC
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] dedicated local bus drawing from Mark


On Sep 26, 2014, at 8:02 PM, colorose@... [WiringForDCC]
<WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

At the "Wiring for DCC" website in the track wiring part II section, there
is a drawing from Mark that shows how to wire a dedicated local bus to break
the layout into blocks. It is what I would like to do to my new layout since
I am just starting to lay track.


Here is the section where the drawing is located: Block Wiring for Large
Layouts (V2.0)

I have a question about the wires going from the main bus to the local
bus. Can someone tell me if the reason they look like two wires is to
indicate a larger AWG required between the main and local bus?


What appears to you to be two small wires are actually the "edges" of a
single larger wire that is light in color like white. The wire is the same
gauge as the red wire and they are twisted together. My goal was to make
sure this image was clear printed on a black and white printer.


Best Regards,


Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com










------------------------------------


------------------------------------


http://www.WiringForDCC.com
------------------------------------


Yahoo Groups Links

Re: Uhlenbrock 62000 LocoNet Cable Tester

Ross Kudlick
 

Jerry,

 

This looks like the same tester I bought at MicroCenter for about $5.

 

Search eBay for “RJ12 Tester;” you can get them in the $5 - $10 range shipping included!  I’ve had mine for several years; invaluable when troubleshooting an installed LocoNet!

 

Regards,

 

Ross Kudlick

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2014 12:20 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Uhlenbrock 62000 LocoNet Cable Tester

 

 

Anybody know of a US distributor for this tester, or have any comments about it?  I found one on ebay, but shipping from Germany was over $50.

 

Thanks!

 

Jerry Michels

twisted bus wires next to each other

Scott Rose
 

Does anyone have an opinion on running power busses close to each other for two power districts? I have some hidden staging track that is directly below my main yard, so I would like to have separate bus runs but of almost equal length for each of these two power districts. If I have both bus runs under the staging track, would there be any cross talk between the two busses?  I plan to twist each bus separately, but then the twisted pairs would be next to each other.


Thanks,

Scott

Re: twisted bus wires next to each other

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

I would not expect any problems with running two twisted pairs of DCC bus feeders next to each other. They are basically carrying the same power signal and will have little crosstalk.

DonV

On Sep 29, 2014, at 11:28 PM, colorose@...<mailto:colorose@...> [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...<mailto:WiringForDCC@...>> wrote:




Does anyone have an opinion on running power busses close to each other for two power districts? I have some hidden staging track that is directly below my main yard, so I would like to have separate bus runs but of almost equal length for each of these two power districts. If I have both bus runs under the staging track, would there be any cross talk between the two busses? I plan to twist each bus separately, but then the twisted pairs would be next to each other.


Thanks,

Scott

Re: Digest Number 2173

John White
 

Hope jumping in on this with my question is okay. If not, my apologize. I'm an old time DC'er building a new layout and doing it in DCC. So I'm looking at using the AR-1 tto take care of my proposed Y track. no problem there. It leads to my proposed Turntable. Kind of like adding two things that I feel are a necessity for my 12 x 12 circle layout. My question, can I or is it possible to use one AR-1 to reverse both form the same AR-1?

Re: Digest Number 2173

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

You can use a single AR-1 auto-reverser to function properly for several auto-reversing track sections… provided that locos in and out of the individual AR sections do not do so at two different locations at the same time. So Yeah, if the turntable and Y track will not be used at the same time, you only need one auto-reverser with the output wired to both the Y and turntable tracks.

 

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 7:16 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: RE: [WiringForDCC] Digest Number 2173

 



Hope jumping in on this with my question is okay. If not, my apologize. I'm an old time DC'er building a new layout and doing it in DCC. So I'm looking at using the AR-1 tto take care of my proposed Y track. no problem there. It leads to my proposed Turntable. Kind of like adding two things that I feel are a necessity for my 12 x 12 circle layout. My question, can I or is it possible to use one AR-1 to reverse both form the same AR-1?


Re: Digest Number 2173

Steve Haas
 


<<Hope jumping in on this with my question is okay. If not, my apologize.>>

 

No need to apologize, the list exists to share information.

 

<<I'm an old time DC'er building a new layout and doing it in DCC. So I'm looking at using the AR-1 tto take care of my proposed Y track. no problem there. It leads to my proposed Turntable. Kind of like adding two things that I feel are a necessity for my 12 x 12 circle layout. My question, can I or is it possible to use one AR-1 to reverse both form the same AR-1?>>

 

 

The answer is a very robust “it depends”.  It depends on how you plan to operate on your layout:

 

1)      If you are never going to operate more than one train at a time, one reversing unit can be used,

2)      If you are never going to have a train entering/exiting the reversing loop at the same time an engine is moving on to/off of the turntable, one reversing unit can be used.

 

However, if your interests lie more toward running in a prototypical manner as opposed to just running trains, you probably want to use a separate unit for each section  of track that needs to have its polarity reversed.  This way, you don’t have to concern yourself with “model railroad thoughts”.

 

Note that if you go with one reversing unit to begin with, nothing prevents you from adding the second unit later to eliminate the constraints of the single reverser.

 

If you haven’t yet purchased your reversing  unit(s) yet, I’d encourage you to consider the DCC Specialties PSX-AR instead of the AR-1.  They’ve proven themselves to be superior performers in the field.

 

 

Best regards,

 

 

Steve

 

 

Steve Haas

Snoqualmie, WA

Re: twisted bus wires next to each other

Charles Brumbelow
 

Normally twisted pairs are considered self shielding - thus their use in Ethernet cabling. Charles

On Sep 29, 2014, at 5:46 PM, "colorose@... [WiringForDCC]" <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

Does anyone have an opinion on running power busses close to each other for two power districts? I have some hidden staging track that is directly below my main yard, so I would like to have separate bus runs but of almost equal length for each of these two power districts. If I have both bus runs under the staging track, would there be any cross talk between the two busses?  I plan to twist each bus separately, but then the twisted pairs would be next to each other.


Thanks,

Scott

Re: Digest Number 2173

John White
 

Many Thanks for the reply. I was about to order two of the AR-1's, but thought I would ask first to see if my thinking was right or not. My turntable  will be right off the Y so I don't forsee any issues of two locomotives using either one at the same time. I know I'm confused a bit with some of the DCC, operations and have done some heavy duty reading and not grasping it all, but I'm loving it. Beats the socks off DC. Thanks again for your reply.

Re: Digest Number 2173

rt_coker@...
 

Just a reminder that a powered car or locomotive with multi-wheel-pickups sitting across one of the gaps constitutes the one usage limitation.

Bob

Using an AR1 for a Y and turntable

asychis@...
 

Two comments:
 
1. Our club uses two AR1s and we have not had a problem with them.  Once installed, you can pretty well forget about them.
 
2. I'd use an AR1 for the Y and a simple DPDT switch for the turntable.  You have to be near the turntable to operate it to begin with, so flipping a switch on the fascia is pretty nuts and bolts simple.  It differs from a Y where you want somewhat unattended operation.
 
Jerry Michels
Amarillo Railroad Museum

Re: Digest Number 2173

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

JTW37,

There is yet another alternative answer to your question. One mentioned the use of a toggle switch to flip the polarity of the turntable and using the AR-1 for the Y. But… If the Y track under discussion is a stub track for the purpose of turning a locomotive you could use a relay or the internal DPDT contacts of a Tortoise switch machine to automatically flip the polarity of the stub track according to the position of the throwbar without using an AR-1.

 

DCC is supposed to help make model railroading simple, and it does that to a great extent.  But there are always complicated answers to seemingly simple questions that pop up so that we can make train operations flawless. That is what this (and other) forums are for. Ask away.

 

Please use a name/handle so others know who is in the discussion.

DonV    

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 6:04 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: RE: [WiringForDCC] Digest Number 2173

 



Many Thanks for the reply. I was about to order two of the AR-1's, but thought I would ask first to see if my thinking was right or not. My turntable  will be right off the Y so I don't forsee any issues of two locomotives using either one at the same time. I know I'm confused a bit with some of the DCC, operations and have done some heavy duty reading and not grasping it all, but I'm loving it. Beats the socks off DC. Thanks again for your reply.


Re: Digest Number 2173

rt_coker@...
 

Just a reminder that a powered car or locomotive with multi-wheel-pickups sitting across one of the gaps constitutes the one usage limitation.

Bob

BOD-H Occupancy Detectors

stublau@...
 

 I am in need of RR-Circuits BOD-H detectors. Prefer them in assembled form but will accept kits.I need at least 10. If you have some you are no longer using contact me off-list and we will see if we can work out a deal. Payment will be by PayPal. Thanks, Stu Blau

BOD-H Occupancy Detectors

stublau@...
 

 I am in need of RR-Circuits BOD-H detectors. Prefer them in assembled form but will accept kits.I need at least 10. If you have some you are no longer using contact me off-list and we will see if we can work out a deal. Payment will be by PayPal. Thanks, Stu Blau