Date   
Re: Unidentified electronic Ckt breaker

Michael Sherbak
 

Thanks Mark
Appreciate you looking it over and the guidance

Michael


On Friday, September 19, 2014, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:
> On Sep 19, 2014, at 3:29 AM, Michael Sherbak msherbak11@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

> This was included in a used DCC system I purchased
> Was hoping some one could identify the brand/model so I know how to wire it correctly and may put it in service.

It appears to be a very early DCC circuit breaker design from a company that appears to be out of business.  In my quick search, I cannot find any internet information on the company “MicroDesign”.

What is unique about it is the use of PCB trace as a power resistor, the squiggly lines on the back side, to detect short circuit current flow to cut cost as opposed to using more accurate real power resistors.

I believe the RED device is a LED that lights up when the breaker has tripped.  An external LED is optional.   HOWEVER It looks like an external LED was used before for there appears to be a cut trace between the two wire holes for the external LED labeled “A” and “K” .   In order for the PCB LED to work, you must now re-short the “A” and “K” terminals together -or- install another LED to the two wire terminals.  The polarity of the LED is important.  Get it backwards and none of the LEDs will work or work properly.   Get jt right and both LED will glow brightly when on.

There two large holes which I believe is used to mount the PCB to some surface (wood) using some form of 1/4” tall standoff and an appropriate screw.

Given there is no documentation and I cannot look more carefully at the actual PCB board, I can only speculate on the connections based on the circuit I see.  Specifically I cannot make out the hole names for the two holes used for the red and black wires.  I WILL ASSUME the two wires hole labels are J3 and J3A.

There appear to be 2 sets of wire holes for input and output connections.  Large wire holes J1, J2 and J3.   Small wire holes J1A, J2A and J3A.

This implies there are electrically only 3 connections made to the PCB.   The black wire is going to be a common connection between the input and the output made externally from the board.  So you will need to “Y" the black wire into two wires to get the 2 in (booster) and 2 out (track) wire pairs.

AS SHOWN:

The Booster Red wire input to J3A.
The Booster Black wire input to J3.
The Track Red wire output to J1.

But there is something wrong with the above connections from what I can tell.   There appears to be a small trace on the bottom shorting the J3A and the J3 as expected BUT as connected it is shorting the two Red and Black wires coming from the booster to each other shoring out the booster.   It sort of appears the small PCB trace started to burn near the black wire…. VERY BAD.      I think the J3A red wire coming from the booster is connected incorrectly.

MY WIRING SUGGESTION

Move the red wiring going to J3A to J2.  This should remove the short.  Make sure the red wire does not short to anything around the hole J2.

That makes the Booster/Track connections as follows:

The Booster Red wire input to J2 .
The Booster Black wire input to J3. (as currently done)
The Track Red wire output to J1.  (as currently done.)

RECOMMENDATION

Given this is a early DCC circuit breaker design, it is not suitable for todays DCC locomotives with sound.   It will shutdown prematurely.   I would retire this board and purchase a new modern “High Current Inrush” capable DCC circuit breakers.   There are two such products on the Market.   The DCC Specialties PSX-1 and the NCE EB-1.

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com





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Re: Unidentified electronic Ckt breaker

Martin Ozolins
 

Might this be the company?

 

http://www.microdesignsinc.com/services/index.htm They’re in GA and do this kind of work.

 

Martin Ozolins

mdozolins@...

(760)405 4812

 

"Fortune favors the prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2014 17:19
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Re: Unidentified electronic Ckt breaker

 

 

Thanks Mark

Appreciate you looking it over and the guidance

 

Michael

 


On Friday, September 19, 2014, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

> On Sep 19, 2014, at 3:29 AM, Michael Sherbak msherbak11@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

> This was included in a used DCC system I purchased
> Was hoping some one could identify the brand/model so I know how to wire it correctly and may put it in service.

It appears to be a very early DCC circuit breaker design from a company that appears to be out of business.  In my quick search, I cannot find any internet information on the company “MicroDesign”.

What is unique about it is the use of PCB trace as a power resistor, the squiggly lines on the back side, to detect short circuit current flow to cut cost as opposed to using more accurate real power resistors.

I believe the RED device is a LED that lights up when the breaker has tripped.  An external LED is optional.   HOWEVER It looks like an external LED was used before for there appears to be a cut trace between the two wire holes for the external LED labeled “A” and “K” .   In order for the PCB LED to work, you must now re-short the “A” and “K” terminals together -or- install another LED to the two wire terminals.  The polarity of the LED is important.  Get it backwards and none of the LEDs will work or work properly.   Get jt right and both LED will glow brightly when on.

There two large holes which I believe is used to mount the PCB to some surface (wood) using some form of 1/4” tall standoff and an appropriate screw.

Given there is no documentation and I cannot look more carefully at the actual PCB board, I can only speculate on the connections based on the circuit I see.  Specifically I cannot make out the hole names for the two holes used for the red and black wires.  I WILL ASSUME the two wires hole labels are J3 and J3A.

There appear to be 2 sets of wire holes for input and output connections.  Large wire holes J1, J2 and J3.   Small wire holes J1A, J2A and J3A.

This implies there are electrically only 3 connections made to the PCB.   The black wire is going to be a common connection between the input and the output made externally from the board.  So you will need to “Y" the black wire into two wires to get the 2 in (booster) and 2 out (track) wire pairs.

AS SHOWN:

The Booster Red wire input to J3A.
The Booster Black wire input to J3.
The Track Red wire output to J1.

But there is something wrong with the above connections from what I can tell.   There appears to be a small trace on the bottom shorting the J3A and the J3 as expected BUT as connected it is shorting the two Red and Black wires coming from the booster to each other shoring out the booster.   It sort of appears the small PCB trace started to burn near the black wire…. VERY BAD.      I think the J3A red wire coming from the booster is connected incorrectly.

MY WIRING SUGGESTION

Move the red wiring going to J3A to J2.  This should remove the short.  Make sure the red wire does not short to anything around the hole J2.

That makes the Booster/Track connections as follows:

The Booster Red wire input to J2 .
The Booster Black wire input to J3. (as currently done)
The Track Red wire output to J1.  (as currently done.)

RECOMMENDATION

Given this is a early DCC circuit breaker design, it is not suitable for todays DCC locomotives with sound.   It will shutdown prematurely.   I would retire this board and purchase a new modern “High Current Inrush” capable DCC circuit breakers.   There are two such products on the Market.   The DCC Specialties PSX-1 and the NCE EB-1.

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com





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Re: Unidentified electronic Ckt breaker

Mark Gurries
 

Yes it has the correct name and maybe there some history… maybe an old Digitrax connection?....or it could be totally unrelated….who knows.    Dale has suggested it is related to DCC specialties somehow in his email response…perhaps he knows more.   I have no way of knowing unless I call Larry.   But I really do not think it matters.  Better off getting a new one.

One other thought….typically a contract design house such as this company never puts on it’s own name on a product because they are paid by the product owner to design and possibly make it for them and put their own name on it.  Designing and selling their own products make them less attractive to potential clients because they can be seen as competitors or not willing to put their best guys on the job because they need to support their own products.   Anyway…the true owner would have the rights to the schematic, PCB design and any documentation.

On Sep 20, 2014, at 8:11 AM, Martin Ozolins mdozolins@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

Might this be the company

http://www.microdesignsinc.com/services/index.htm They’re in GA and do this kind of work.

 

Martin Ozolins

mdozolins@...

(760)405 4812

 

"Fortune favors the prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2014 17:19
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Re: Unidentified electronic Ckt breaker

 

 

Thanks Mark

Appreciate you looking it over and the guidance

 

Michael

 


On Friday, September 19, 2014, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

> On Sep 19, 2014, at 3:29 AM, Michael Sherbak msherbak11@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

> This was included in a used DCC system I purchased
> Was hoping some one could identify the brand/model so I know how to wire it correctly and may put it in service.

It appears to be a very early DCC circuit breaker design from a company that appears to be out of business.  In my quick search, I cannot find any internet information on the company “MicroDesign”.

What is unique about it is the use of PCB trace as a power resistor, the squiggly lines on the back side, to detect short circuit current flow to cut cost as opposed to using more accurate real power resistors.

I believe the RED device is a LED that lights up when the breaker has tripped.  An external LED is optional.   HOWEVER It looks like an external LED was used before for there appears to be a cut trace between the two wire holes for the external LED labeled “A” and “K” .   In order for the PCB LED to work, you must now re-short the “A” and “K” terminals together -or- install another LED to the two wire terminals.  The polarity of the LED is important.  Get it backwards and none of the LEDs will work or work properly.   Get jt right and both LED will glow brightly when on.

There two large holes which I believe is used to mount the PCB to some surface (wood) using some form of 1/4” tall standoff and an appropriate screw.

Given there is no documentation and I cannot look more carefully at the actual PCB board, I can only speculate on the connections based on the circuit I see.  Specifically I cannot make out the hole names for the two holes used for the red and black wires.  I WILL ASSUME the two wires hole labels are J3 and J3A.

There appear to be 2 sets of wire holes for input and output connections.  Large wire holes J1, J2 and J3.   Small wire holes J1A, J2A and J3A.

This implies there are electrically only 3 connections made to the PCB.   The black wire is going to be a common connection between the input and the output made externally from the board.  So you will need to “Y" the black wire into two wires to get the 2 in (booster) and 2 out (track) wire pairs.

AS SHOWN:

The Booster Red wire input to J3A.
The Booster Black wire input to J3.
The Track Red wire output to J1.

But there is something wrong with the above connections from what I can tell.   There appears to be a small trace on the bottom shorting the J3A and the J3 as expected BUT as connected it is shorting the two Red and Black wires coming from the booster to each other shoring out the booster.   It sort of appears the small PCB trace started to burn near the black wire…. VERY BAD.      I think the J3A red wire coming from the booster is connected incorrectly.

MY WIRING SUGGESTION

Move the red wiring going to J3A to J2.  This should remove the short.  Make sure the red wire does not short to anything around the hole J2.

That makes the Booster/Track connections as follows:

The Booster Red wire input to J2 .
The Booster Black wire input to J3. (as currently done)
The Track Red wire output to J1.  (as currently done.)

RECOMMENDATION

Given this is a early DCC circuit breaker design, it is not suitable for todays DCC locomotives with sound.   It will shutdown prematurely.   I would retire this board and purchase a new modern “High Current Inrush” capable DCC circuit breakers.   There are two such products on the Market.   The DCC Specialties PSX-1 and the NCE EB-1.

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com





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------------------------------------

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------------------------------------

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Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Converting Locos to DCC

Paul Berry
 

I have a number of LGB and Accucraft locos I'd love to run on my DCC powered layout.


I'm having considerable trouble in finding anyone who is able, and willing, to insert the decoders.


I have decoders and cables for each loco.


Would anyone be able to recommend someone who is able, and willing, to do so?


I live in San Francisco so would love to find someone in, or around, the Bay Area.


Many thanks.


Paul Berry

 

Re: Converting Locos to DCC

fred starr
 

try yardbird trains  @.com

From: "pberry1707@... [WiringForDCC]"
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2014 2:27 PM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Converting Locos to DCC

 
I have a number of LGB and Accucraft locos I'd love to run on my DCC powered layout.

I'm having considerable trouble in finding anyone who is able, and willing, to insert the decoders.

I have decoders and cables for each loco.

Would anyone be able to recommend someone who is able, and willing, to do so?

I live in San Francisco so would love to find someone in, or around, the Bay Area.

Many thanks.

Paul Berry
 


Expanding a Reverse Loop

Marvin Pankaskie
 

I currently have a small reverse loop (using an Atlas HO turnout) that I
control with a Digitrax AR1 controller. The controller and track feed wires
(including insulators) are installed exactly like the Digitrax instructions
and the loop does not contain any other track feed wires from my track bus.
The loop is about 3' by 4'. I am expanding the loop so that now it occupies
an entire 4' by 8' section (my layout is an L-shaped table made of two 4' by
8' panels). Without adding any additional feeds (besides those to/from the
controller) the loop works fine, but I would like to add another feed(s)
from the track bus. When I add 1 pair of extra feeder wires about 6' from
the turnout either there is a short when I apply power to the track bus or
the loco stalls/shorts when it reaches the turnout. If I disconnect this
extra feeder the loco moves through the turnout as it should with no
problems.



Do I need to extend the 2 wires that go from the controller to the loop
using a Y connector so that the feeds inside the loop all originate from the
controller?



Thank you kindly,

Marvin Pankaskie

Rochester, NY 14450

Re: Expanding a Reverse Loop

Mark Gurries
 

On Sep 23, 2014, at 1:57 PM, 'Marvin Pankaskie' thealchemist@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

I currently have a small reverse loop (using an Atlas HO turnout) that I control with a Digitrax AR1 controller.
When I add 1 pair of extra feeder wires about 6’ from the turnout either there is a short when I apply power to the track bus or the loco stalls/shorts when it reaches the turnout. If I disconnect this extra feeder the loco moves through the turnout as it should with no problems.
Do I need to extend the 2 wires that go from the controller to the loop using a Y connector so that the feeds inside the loop all originate from the controller?
Yes. Implement a Y connection for all track feeder that go to the reverse loop track. All reverse loop track wiring must remain inside the reverse track loop 100% under control of the AR1 autoreversing device.

The reverse loop track electrically starts and stop at the insulated rail joiner locations. The Turnout is outside the insulated rail joiners which makes it not electrically part of the reverse loop. If you add feeders that are fed from the turnout to the reverse loop track, you have electrically bypassed (Shorted across) the insulated rail joiners. This prevents the autoreversing device from functioning which in turn allows the short circuit to occur.

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com

Re: Expanding a Reverse Loop

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

In. Nutshell... Yes. The feeder wires for all tracks on the referee section must be connected to the output of the ad unit and nowhere else.

DonV

On Sep 23, 2014, at 2:02 PM, 'Marvin Pankaskie' thealchemist@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



I currently have a small reverse loop (using an Atlas HO turnout) that I
control with a Digitrax AR1 controller. The controller and track feed wires
(including insulators) are installed exactly like the Digitrax instructions
and the loop does not contain any other track feed wires from my track bus.
The loop is about 3' by 4'. I am expanding the loop so that now it occupies
an entire 4' by 8' section (my layout is an L-shaped table made of two 4' by
8' panels). Without adding any additional feeds (besides those to/from the
controller) the loop works fine, but I would like to add another feed(s)
from the track bus. When I add 1 pair of extra feeder wires about 6' from
the turnout either there is a short when I apply power to the track bus or
the loco stalls/shorts when it reaches the turnout. If I disconnect this
extra feeder the loco moves through the turnout as it should with no
problems.



Do I need to extend the 2 wires that go from the controller to the loop
using a Y connector so that the feeds inside the loop all originate from the
controller?



Thank you kindly,

Marvin Pankaskie

Rochester, NY 14450







------------------------------------
Posted by: "Marvin Pankaskie" <thealchemist@...>
------------------------------------

http://www.WiringForDCC.com
------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links


Re: Expanding a Reverse Loop

Steve Haas
 

<<Do I need to extend the 2 wires that go from the controller to the loop
using a Y connector so that the feeds inside the loop all originate from the
controller?>>

If I understand you correctly, you are making the reversing loop longer in
length by expanding it onto the new section of bench work.

If that is the case, the entire expanded reversing loop needs to be powered
by the reversing unit.

If that is not the case, a track diagram loaded to the files section of this
list would help us to help you.

Best regards,


Steve


Steve Haas
Snoqualmie, WA

Re: Expanding a Reverse Loop

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

Please excuse the poor finger pokin' and auto-correction of the iphone.
You need to isolate all the tracks and turnouts you are adding to the reverse lop from main line rails and wire track feeders from them to be connected to the original A-R section rails or feeders from the A-R unit. Add new rail gaps or insulated joiners as necessary to do that. Be sure to remove any connections of those tracks to mainline power.
DonV

-----Original Message-----
From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 4:41 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Expanding a Reverse Loop

In. Nutshell... Yes. The feeder wires for all tracks on the referee section must be connected to the output of the ad unit and nowhere else.

DonV
On Sep 23, 2014, at 2:02 PM, 'Marvin Pankaskie' thealchemist@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



I currently have a small reverse loop (using an Atlas HO turnout) that
I control with a Digitrax AR1 controller. The controller and track
feed wires (including insulators) are installed exactly like the
Digitrax instructions and the loop does not contain any other track feed wires from my track bus.
The loop is about 3' by 4'. I am expanding the loop so that now it
occupies an entire 4' by 8' section (my layout is an L-shaped table
made of two 4' by 8' panels). Without adding any additional feeds
(besides those to/from the
controller) the loop works fine, but I would like to add another
feed(s) from the track bus. When I add 1 pair of extra feeder wires
about 6' from the turnout either there is a short when I apply power
to the track bus or the loco stalls/shorts when it reaches the
turnout. If I disconnect this extra feeder the loco moves through the
turnout as it should with no problems.



Do I need to extend the 2 wires that go from the controller to the
loop using a Y connector so that the feeds inside the loop all
originate from the controller?



Thank you kindly,

Marvin Pankaskie

Rochester, NY 14450







------------------------------------
Posted by: "Marvin Pankaskie" <thealchemist@...>
------------------------------------

http://www.WiringForDCC.com
------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links



------------------------------------
Posted by: "Vollrath, Don" <DVollrath@...>
------------------------------------

http://www.WiringForDCC.com
------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links

Re: Digest Number 2173

Marvin Pankaskie
 

Thanks to all who helped resolve my wiring problem. Putting a Y connection in and running all loop feeds off of the AR1 reversing terminal solved the problem and my locos now run smooth with full track power.

 

Marvin Pankaskie

Rochester, NY 14450

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 3:50 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Digest Number 2173

 

5 Messages

Digest #2173

1a

Expanding a Reverse Loop by "Marvin Pankaskie" marvinpankaskie

1b

Re: Expanding a Reverse Loop by "Mark Gurries" gurriesm

1c

Re: Expanding a Reverse Loop by "Vollrath, Don" donevol

1d

Re: Expanding a Reverse Loop by "Steve Haas" goatfisher

1e

Re: Expanding a Reverse Loop by "Vollrath, Don" donevol

Messages

Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:02 pm (PDT) . Posted by:

"Marvin Pankaskie" marvinpankaskie



I currently have a small reverse loop (using an Atlas HO turnout) that I
control with a Digitrax AR1 controller. The controller and track feed wires
(including insulators) are installed exactly like the Digitrax instructions
and the loop does not contain any other track feed wires from my track bus.
The loop is about 3' by 4'. I am expanding the loop so that now it occupies
an entire 4' by 8' section (my layout is an L-shaped table made of two 4' by
8' panels). Without adding any additional feeds (besides those to/from the
controller) the loop works fine, but I would like to add another feed(s)
from the track bus. When I add 1 pair of extra feeder wires about 6' from
the turnout either there is a short when I apply power to the track bus or
the loco stalls/shorts when it reaches the turnout. If I disconnect this
extra feeder the loco moves through the turnout as it should with no
problems.

Do I need to extend the 2 wires that go from the controller to the loop
using a Y connector so that the feeds inside the loop all originate from the
controller?

Thank you kindly,

Marvin Pankaskie

Rochester, NY 14450

Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:23 pm (PDT) . Posted by:

"Mark Gurries" gurriesm

> On Sep 23, 2014, at 1:57 PM, 'Marvin Pankaskie' thealchemist@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:
>
> I currently have a small reverse loop (using an Atlas HO turnout) that I control with a Digitrax AR1 controller.

> When I add 1 pair of extra feeder wires about 6 from the turnout either there is a short when I apply power to the track bus or the loco stalls/shorts when it reaches the turnout. If I disconnect this extra feeder the loco moves through the turnout as it should with no problems.

> Do I need to extend the 2 wires that go from the controller to the loop using a Y connector so that the feeds inside the loop all originate from the controller?

Yes. Implement a Y connection for all track feeder that go to the reverse loop track. All reverse loop track wiring must remain inside the reverse track loop 100% under control of the AR1 autoreversing device.

The reverse loop track electrically starts and stop at the insulated rail joiner locations. The Turnout is outside the insulated rail joiners which makes it not electrically part of the reverse loop. If you add feeders that are fed from the turnout to the reverse loop track, you have electrically bypassed (Shorted across) the insulated rail joiners. This prevents the autoreversing device from functioning which in turn allows the short circuit to occur.

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com

Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:42 pm (PDT) . Posted by:

"Vollrath, Don" donevol

In. Nutshell... Yes. The feeder wires for all tracks on the referee section must be connected to the output of the ad unit and nowhere else.

DonV


> On Sep 23, 2014, at 2:02 PM, 'Marvin Pankaskie' thealchemist@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> I currently have a small reverse loop (using an Atlas HO turnout) that I
> control with a Digitrax AR1 controller. The controller and track feed wires
> (including insulators) are installed exactly like the Digitrax instructions
> and the loop does not contain any other track feed wires from my track bus.
> The loop is about 3' by 4'. I am expanding the loop so that now it occupies
> an entire 4' by 8' section (my layout is an L-shaped table made of two 4' by
> 8' panels). Without adding any additional feeds (besides those to/from the
> controller) the loop works fine, but I would like to add another feed(s)
> from the track bus. When I add 1 pair of extra feeder wires about 6' from
> the turnout either there is a short when I apply power to the track bus or
> the loco stalls/shorts when it reaches the turnout. If I disconnect this
> extra feeder the loco moves through the turnout as it should with no
> problems.
>
>
>
> Do I need to extend the 2 wires that go from the controller to the loop
> using a Y connector so that the feeds inside the loop all originate from the
> controller?
>
>
>
> Thank you kindly,
>
> Marvin Pankaskie
>
> Rochester, NY 14450
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: "Marvin Pankaskie" <thealchemist@...>
> ------------------------------------
>
> http://www.WiringForDCC.com
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>

Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:09 pm (PDT) . Posted by:

"Steve Haas" goatfisher

<using a Y connector so that the feeds inside the loop all originate from the
controller?>>

If I understand you correctly, you are making the reversing loop longer in
length by expanding it onto the new section of bench work.

If that is the case, the entire expanded reversing loop needs to be powered
by the reversing unit.

If that is not the case, a track diagram loaded to the files section of this
list would help us to help you.

Best regards,

Steve

Steve Haas
Snoqualmie, WA

Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:14 pm (PDT) . Posted by:

"Vollrath, Don" donevol

Please excuse the poor finger pokin' and auto-correction of the iphone.
You need to isolate all the tracks and turnouts you are adding to the reverse lop from main line rails and wire track feeders from them to be connected to the original A-R section rails or feeders from the A-R unit. Add new rail gaps or insulated joiners as necessary to do that. Be sure to remove any connections of those tracks to mainline power.
DonV

-----Original Message-----
From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 4:41 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Expanding a Reverse Loop

In. Nutshell... Yes. The feeder wires for all tracks on the referee section must be connected to the output of the ad unit and nowhere else.

DonV


> On Sep 23, 2014, at 2:02 PM, 'Marvin Pankaskie' thealchemist@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> I currently have a small reverse loop (using an Atlas HO turnout) that
> I control with a Digitrax AR1 controller. The controller and track
> feed wires (including insulators) are installed exactly like the
> Digitrax instructions and the loop does not contain any other track feed wires from my track bus.
> The loop is about 3' by 4'. I am expanding the loop so that now it
> occupies an entire 4' by 8' section (my layout is an L-shaped table
> made of two 4' by 8' panels). Without adding any additional feeds
> (besides those to/from the
> controller) the loop works fine, but I would like to add another
> feed(s) from the track bus. When I add 1 pair of extra feeder wires
> about 6' from the turnout either there is a short when I apply power
> to the track bus or the loco stalls/shorts when it reaches the
> turnout. If I disconnect this extra feeder the loco moves through the
> turnout as it should with no problems.
>
>
>
> Do I need to extend the 2 wires that go from the controller to the
> loop using a Y connector so that the feeds inside the loop all
> originate from the controller?
>
>
>
> Thank you kindly,
>
> Marvin Pankaskie
>
> Rochester, NY 14450
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: "Marvin Pankaskie" <thealchemist@...>
> ------------------------------------
>
> http://www.WiringForDCC.com
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>

------------------------------------
Posted by: "Vollrath, Don" <DVollrath@...>
------------------------------------

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Copper Clad Aluminum wire for track bus

Scott Rose
 

Has anyone tried to use Copper Clad Aluminum for their track bus?  I've read that the resistance is double that of copper which would be a problem for my long runs.  It's definitely cheaper, but I'm concerned about DCC and what downsides CCA might have with signal integrity and current capability.

thanks,

Scott in Colorado

Re: Copper Clad Aluminum wire for track bus

Charles Brumbelow
 

Example from eBay...

Look at this on eBay:


100 FT 10 AWG GAUGE ZIP SPEAKER WIRE RED BLACK STRANDED COPPER POWER GROUND

Charles

On Sep 25, 2014, at 7:30 PM, "colorose@... [WiringForDCC]" <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

Has anyone tried to use Copper Clad Aluminum for their track bus?  I've read that the resistance is double that of copper which would be a problem for my long runs.  It's definitely cheaper, but I'm concerned about DCC and what downsides CCA might have with signal integrity and current capability.

thanks,

Scott in Colorado

Re: Copper Clad Aluminum wire for track bus

jazzmanlj
 

The resistance is higher but not really double. Definitely less resistance than brass rail! If you go with heavier Al than Cu wire than it should be equivalent! Even without copper coating the voltages and currents are so low there should be negligible galvanic effect.

I doing a large scale layout and have mostly Al rails. Cheaper cost and better conductivity than brass!

 

Len Jaskiewicz

Re: Copper Clad Aluminum wire for track bus

Charles Brumbelow
 

How much cheaper and how much and what size that the cost difference is really a consideration? Thanks. Charles

On Sep 25, 2014, at 7:30 PM, "colorose@... [WiringForDCC]" <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

Has anyone tried to use Copper Clad Aluminum for their track bus?  I've read that the resistance is double that of copper which would be a problem for my long runs.  It's definitely cheaper, but I'm concerned about DCC and what downsides CCA might have with signal integrity and current capability.

thanks,

Scott in Colorado

Re: Copper Clad Aluminum wire for track bus

Tim Johnson
 

Len, isn't conductivity a surface phenomenon? I would think the copper surface over the AL would have the same resistance characteristics as all copper. What am I missing from my physics education (maybe loss of memory :-) )
-- 
Tim
Timothy A Johnson, Tucson, AZ (www.sbb-bls-bahnen.com)
European Train Enthusiasts, Central Arizona Chapter (www.ete.org)

---In WiringForDCC@..., <len.jask@...> wrote :

The resistance is higher but not really double. Definitely less resistance than brass rail! If you go with heavier Al than Cu wire than it should be equivalent! Even without copper coating the voltages and currents are so low there should be negligible galvanic effect.

I doing a large scale layout and have mostly Al rails. Cheaper cost and better conductivity than brass!

 

Len Jaskiewicz

 

Re: Copper Clad Aluminum wire for track bus

jazzmanlj
 

Tim,

Conductivity is merely the reciprocal of resistivity. There are charts listed on the web for various metals.


Conduction on the outside surface is frequency related and called skin effect. For a given conductor size At DC the entire conductor passes current. As frequency is increased the current tends to migrate towards the outer areas and the center is dormant/wasted metal. This normally starts to slowly kick in starting at 50kHz and higher. That's why they came up with what is called Litz wire which is multiple strand of small enameled wire twisted. At the frequency of DCC which is about 8kHz, skin effect ins miniscule!


The copper coating is there more for galvanic purposes in higher voltage and current. The current is mainly flowing in the Aluminum.

Len Jaskiewicz

Re: Copper Clad Aluminum wire for track bus

Tim Johnson
 

Thanks, Ken. Yeah, it's been way too long ago since I studied this stuff.
Tim
Timothy A Johnson, Tucson, AZ (www.sbb-bls-bahnen.com)
European Train Enthusiasts, Central Arizona Chapter (www.ete.org)
On 9/26/2014 3:02 PM, len.jask@... [WiringForDCC] wrote:

 

Tim,

Conductivity is merely the reciprocal of resistivity. There are charts listed on the web for various metals.


Conduction on the outside surface is frequency related and called skin effect. For a given conductor size At DC the entire conductor passes current. As frequency is increased the current tends to migrate towards the outer areas and the center is dormant/wasted metal. This normally starts to slowly kick in starting at 50kHz and higher. That's why they came up with what is called Litz wire which is multiple strand of small enameled wire twisted. At the frequency of DCC which is about 8kHz, skin effect ins miniscule!


The copper coating is there more for galvanic purposes in higher voltage and current. The current is mainly flowing in the Aluminum.

Len Jaskiewicz


dedicated local bus drawing from Mark

Scott Rose
 

At the "Wiring for DCC" website in the track wiring part II section, there is a drawing from Mark that shows how to wire a dedicated local bus to break the layout into blocks. It is what I would like to do to my new layout since I am just starting to lay track.

I really appreciate Mark's contribution. I have a question about the wires going from the main bus to the local bus.  Can someone tell me if the reason they look like two wires is to indicate a larger AWG required between the main and local bus?

                Here is the section where the drawing is located.

Block Wiring for Large Layouts (V2.0)   Contributed by Mark Gurries


Thanks,

Scott In Colorado


Re: Copper Clad Aluminum wire for track bus

john
 

   My question is how are you going to make connections. You can't solder, wire nuts wont work long unless they are greased, suitcase connectors are out. and aluminum wire doesn't hold up to kinks, vibration, or bending more than once or twice.
   It takes a wire size bigger to carry current so 10 gage instead of 12, or 14 instead of 16. How will you attach feeders.
john



On Friday, September 26, 2014 5:24 PM, "SBB_BLS_Bahnen@... [WiringForDCC]" wrote:




Len, isn't conductivity a surface phenomenon? I would think the copper surface over the AL would have the same resistance characteristics as all copper. What am I missing from my physics education (maybe loss of memory :-) )
--
Tim
Timothy A Johnson, Tucson, AZ (www.sbb-bls-bahnen.com)
European Train Enthusiasts, Central Arizona Chapter (www.ete.org)

---In WiringForDCC@..., wrote :

The resistance is higher but not really double. Definitely less resistance than brass rail! If you go with heavier Al than Cu wire than it should be equivalent! Even without copper coating the voltages and currents are so low there should be negligible galvanic effect.
I doing a large scale layout and have mostly Al rails. Cheaper cost and better conductivity than brass!
 
Len Jaskiewicz