Date   
Re: DCC Track Design for review

john
 

Guys,
   Unless you are in a hermitically sealed perfect environment with perfect temperature "watch soldering your rails and joiners" especially on curves. Curves can open or close rail gage with temperature change. Long lengths if straight (straightish) rail can separate from or damage switches and/or buckle track. Better more feeders than rail damage. My suggestion is to find "your" perfect soldering iron, use rosin core solder or a high quality fluid and solid solder, and use three colors of feeder wire. One color for north rail, one for south, and a different color for frogs/switch points for consistency. The perfect soldering iron is the one that you can make clean consistent joints on rail with. Big or small, high or low watts doesn't matter, use what works for you. Practice on your scraps. With practice it becomes easy and you won't mind, besides I find feeders easier to solder than joiners.
   Never use acid core flux or paste on tour layout. It will eventually cause your joint to fail. it will dissolve traces on pc boards, and it will travel by capillary action up along wires inside insulation and do hidden damage.
  
Ugh oh, sounds like preaching, hope it helps.
john

From: Annette and Dante Fuligni
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 9:24 AM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Re: DCC Track Design for review

George,

I am not surprised by your experience. My approximately 8’ x 12’ doughnut with a relatively dense amount of track and many turnouts works very well without the usually recommended “feeder to every rail” or “solder every joiner” practices. When I first tested it with DC, I used only one set of temporary feeders. When I did DCC (Digitrax Zephyr Extra 3 amp), I placed feeders where needed because of frog isolation gaps (I have a few older power-routing turnouts). Rail ends were treated with No-Ox before joining and the W/S joiners on W/S Code 83 track are very snug compared to those by Atlas. The voltage level is even throughout. All locations respond to the “quarter test”. Admittedly, the room is climate-controlled. If I ever have to, I can add feeders and/or solder joiners (in-place). Why do all that extra work in the beginning (unless later access will be difficult)?

Dante

------------------------------------

http://www.WiringForDCC.comYahoo Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WiringForDCC/

<*> Your email settings:
    Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WiringForDCC/join
    (Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
    WiringForDCC-digest@...
    WiringForDCC-fullfeatured@...

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    WiringForDCC-unsubscribe@...

<*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:
    http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/



Re: DCC Track Design for review

Bob Hand <rehandjr@...>
 

Click "Messages in this topic" at the bottom of this email message.  Logon.  You will be in Conversations (it will be bolded).  Click Files and you will be there.
 
bob


From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] On Behalf Of Ed S
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 11:18 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: RE: [WiringForDCC] DCC Track Design for review

 

I have the NEO version of yahoo and I cannot find it in the files section.

I hate Neo.

Ed S

At 10:52 PM 1/22/2014, you wrote:
>
>
>Railandsail, go to the WiringForDCC Yahoo group; on the left side,
>click on FILES.
>
>The first half of that section is folders and the second half is
>individual files.
>
>Scroll down until you come to "Layout for Review".
>
>
>
>Paul O
>
>

Re: DCC Track Design for review

Scott H. Haycock
 

Ed,

Click on the "visit your group" at the bottom of this post where it says recent activity. When the Yahoo groups page comes up, click on  "Wiring For DCC" in the column on the left, showing the groups you belong to. Next click on "Files". Now go to the right side and change from "Alphabetical" to "Latest first". now scroll down. The 21st item, with the red PDF icon is what you want. Clicking on that will download the plan to your computer. I know, it's a pain, but after a while, you'll get the hang of it. 



Scott Haycock
Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantm
ent


 

I have the NEO version of yahoo and I cannot find it in the files section.

I hate Neo.

Ed S

At 10:52 PM 1/22/2014, you wrote:
>
>
>Railandsail, go to the WiringForDCC Yahoo group; on the left side,
>click on FILES.
>
>The first half of that section is folders and the second half is
>individual files.
>
>Scroll down until you come to "Layout for Review".
>
>
>
>Paul O
>
>


Re: DCC Wiring - Can it cause a fire?

asychis@...
 

Great information Steve.  I take it this problem is automatically taken care of if the track power is "frog-routed," I. e. the track leading from a turnout thrown against you is dead?  That seems to be our situation.,  If a train is pulled up too close to a turnout thrown against it, it just dies.  Anyway, it is a good thing to check out.
 
Jerry Michels

Re: DCC Track Design for review

Chuck Stiles
 

The outside tracks are intended for passenger service with a bypass for northbound and southbound trains where I have located the passenger platforms and station I preserved a lot of the buildings I had from 35 years ago and will be using them on the layout

The inner loop and sidings are for freight. point to point operation
I can run many different route throughout, twice around, point to point, reverse loop, etc

The era is not defined: combination steam diesel

The layout is a 5 x 8, I designed a custom table for my garage. I will share the plans and pictures with the group. The table sits on a sturdy base with locking casters so I have 360 access under the table is a display case for my rolling stock when not in use, and two 30" cabinets for storage. The top pivots and locks so I can roll it to the side when not in use. the whole thing will roll thru a standard 36" door and fit in a utility trailer for transport. 

Thanks for the comments on the wiring, confirming my wiring.



On Thursday, January 23, 2014 4:20 AM, railandsail wrote:
 





I still don't see "files" on either of these pages??

Sorry, Perhaps I'm just computer 'challenged'
Brian









Re: DCC Track Design for review

Flash Gordon
 

Thanks guy, but I knew how to get the the Alphabetical list of file... the problem was the original post had the wrong name for the file

It should be "Final Layout for review"... after I got the correct name I found it.

thanks

Ed S

At 10:52 PM 1/22/2014, you wrote:


Railandsail, go to the WiringForDCC Yahoo group; on the left side,
click on FILES.

The first half of that section is folders and the second half is
individual files.

Scroll down until you come to "Layout for Review".



Paul O

Re: DCC Track Design for review

Bob Hand <rehandjr@...>
 

Logon to yahoo mail, go to your group (wiringfordcc), click files and it will be listed there. (that is how I get there...).
 
bob


From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] On Behalf Of railandsail
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 10:41 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] DCC Track Design for review

 

How do you find that "FILES" section, and your "Layout for Review" ??


On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 6:08 PM, Chuck Stiles <capnchuck@...> wrote:
 

Hi I'm new to the group and DCC but not to the hobby
Its been over 30 years since I built my last layout (a lot has changed since then)
I have been doing a lot of reading & research. I designed a new layout 5 x 8'  the table is built and ready to go (you can see it in the FILES section) "Final Layout for Review" 
I am proficient with auto cad so after I tried some of the available free programs like Any Rail I decided to do it in autocad so I can get may track spacing and radius geometry correct.
I have Purchased Peco electrofrog turn out switch Peco 100 Flex Track its going over an old school cork roadbed and ballast
I have purchased tortoise switch machines as well
I built the Walthers Turntable and its ready for install
The uploaded drawing shows my proposed track layout with isolator locations track feed locations and block identification
I plan on wiring the elecrofrog thru the tortoise as per many online recommendations I have read  
The purchase of the other DCC controls I have not fully decided on, I am planning on building a fascia control panel for switch control as well as control from a handheld throttle. In the future I would like to experiment with PC control using JMRI software (but one step at a time).
I'm welcoming anyone to look at my plan and see if I may have over looked something thus far before a start making things permanent. 
There is a reversing section across the middle that I had concerns about wiring a reversing module

Thanks
Chuck Stiles
NJ


Re: DCC Track Design for review

Chuck Stiles
 

Paul

I will probably tie most block to the Buss
I'm thinking some block occupancy detection in the future for signals
Most will be tied to terminal strips in the event I need troubleshooting
I may try light bulbs for short detection
I'd rather have more feeders now than try to add them in the future
I will probably be the lone operator 

Chuck


On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 11:01 PM, Paul O wrote:
 
Chuck, it looks like a good plan.
One question: It looks like you have about 25 separate blocks. What is you plan for these blocks?
n  Individual circuit breakers?
n  Auto light bulbs?
n  Grouping them to a terminal block for troubleshooting ease?
 
The reverse loop shouldn’t be a problem so long as the isolated section is longer than any train you plan to run thru it.
 
Do you plan to be a lone operator or have multiple operators?
 
Paul O
 
 
From:  Chuck Stiles

Hi I'm new to the group and DCC but not to the hobby
Its been over 30 years since I built my last layout (a lot has changed since then)
I have been doing a lot of reading & research. I designed a new layout 5 x 8'  the table is built and ready to go (you can see it in the FILES section) "Final Layout for Review" 
I am proficient with auto cad so after I tried some of the available free programs like Any Rail I decided to do it in autocad so I can get may track spacing and radius geometry correct.
I have Purchased Peco electrofrog turn out switch Peco 100 Flex Track its going over an old school cork roadbed and ballast
I have purchased tortoise switch machines as well
I built the Walthers Turntable and its ready for install
The uploaded drawing shows my proposed track layout with isolator locations track feed locations and block identification
I plan on wiring the elecrofrog thru the tortoise as per many online recommendations I have read  
The purchase of the other DCC controls I have not fully decided on, I am planning on building a fascia control panel for switch control as well as control from a handheld throttle. In the future I would like to experiment with PC control using JMRI software (but one step at a time).
I'm welcoming anyone to look at my plan and see if I may have over looked something thus far before a start making things permanent. 
There is a reversing section across the middle that I had concerns about wiring a reversing module
 
Thanks
Chuck Stiles
NJ
 


Re: DCC Wiring - Can it cause a fire?

Steve Haas
 

 

<<I take it this problem is automatically taken care of if the track power is "frog-routed," I. e. the track leading from a turnout thrown against you is dead?  That seems to be our situation.,  If a train is pulled up too close to a turnout thrown against it, it just dies.>>

 

Hi Jerry,

 

Actually, if I am interpreting your note correctly, the situation you describe is the exact situation that caused the problem.

 

Let’s create an example for discussion purposes:

 

1)      Assume we have a right hand turnout, we’re looking at it from the points toward the frog.  The turnout is set for the straight route, and a train is approaching the turnout on the curved route.

2)      As we look at the turnout, The left rail is DCC1, the right rail is DCC2. Since the turnout is set for the straight route, the right rail, the frog, and both rails extending from the frog are all DCC2.

3)      In the situation I was describing, the gap in the rail emanating from the frog on the diverging (right) route was six inches down the spur.

4)      The train slowly approaching from the right arrived at that gap, spanned it, and created a short.  The wiring in this area is “suspect”, as it was wired long before we understood how to bullet proof our wiring for DCC. As a result, the circuit breaker didn’t trip (track and wiring _do_ _not_ pass the quarter test), and the wheel sat on the gap and creating an undetected short that slowly headed the wheel and axle.  Undiscovered for what ever reason, the engine sat on the gap for an extended period of time, heating and allowing the plastic gear/axle to soften and flow around the bearing, effectively freezing the mechanism once it cooled.

 

Keeping the gaps between the frog and the fouling point, prevents (in theory) or at least greatly reduces the possibility of this situation and the inevitable results from arising.

 

 

With rare exceptions, the real railroads would keep equipment clear of the fouling points, model railroaders should too, and that’s the rational for keeping the gaps inside the fouling points.

 

One picture would illustrate this easily, but unfortunately I have to result to text in an attempt to illustrate my point.  If anyone still has questions, feel free to inquire.

 

Best regards,

 

 

Steve Haas

Snoqualmie, WA

 

Re: DCC Track Design for review

Carl
 

Hello Chuck:

With the station tracks at the bottom you could divide your layout horizontally into two blocks, yard at the top and station at the bottom. Wire one to the automatic reversing control. You only need to be careful of running a train on the diagonal track at the same time as the outside loop. More blocks would be nice, but that is all you must have.

Carl.

BEST

colinseggie@...
 

Hello Group,
Allan the Topic 'DCC Track Design for Review' is turning out to be a huge learning curve, covering almost all aspects of modern DCC wiring based on modelers experience.I'm not saying old is bad,but there are some very good summaries of 'Best Practices' as it were.
Hows about You (Its your group) choosing the best reply to various topics and asking that person to rewrite a succinct article about that topic and you then list it under BEST PRACTICES. You know who are regular contributers to your site and who gives good sound practical advice, time and again. At the end of the day we will end up with a 'Wiring for DCC set of Standards' Your web pages are a wealth of information , dont get me wrong, but I for one need a summary, then a referal to a greater indeapth review on that topic.
Good or Bad idea?? Who you choose is YOUR choice--NO debate--Articles and Topics are requested BY YOU. Only you can add them to the BEST PRACTICES file as it were.
Doc Colin

Re: BEST

dvollrath@...
 

Allan's best practices are already compiled on his website www.wiringfordcc.com. There are no absolute rules. There are simply lots of good ideas and methods of wiring a layout to make it more reliable and trouble free in the long run with plenty of explanations and as to why. Your trains will not necessarily or suddenly stop if you violate one or two of the recommended practices. But they can. And there is the root reason to have recommended practices.


There will always be plenty of anecdotal stories as evidence that you can get by with 'cheating' on any one of the recommended guidelines or methods. The simple reason is that there so many variables, and acceptable performance expectations by different folks, that one simple set of rigid rules will not cover every possible combination of problems or solutions. Nor will it necessarily please everyone because it "seems" to work OK without it. 


DonV

Re: DCC Wiring - Can it cause a fire?

Bob <rehandjr@...>
 

Wow!  Thanks for the explanation.  Sounds like the frog rails should be kept as short as possible. 

In response to my comment:

 

“  . . . keep those gaps inside the fouling point of your turnouts and equipment and it will reduce the number of problems due to shorts by reducing the possibility of shorts.”,

 

Bob inquired:

“Are you suggesting gaps closer to or farther from the frog?  Could you explain what you mean with a little more detail? Or point us to a diagram or discussion.>>

 

I’d be glad to, Bob.

The Fouling point is the location where equipment on the diverging tracks of a turnout would sideswipe each other.  Trains & equipment need to be spotted beyond the fouling point so equipment can move into/out of the adjacent track without sideswiping each other.

Starting from the point end of a turn out, you have points, frog, fouling point.  Your gaps go between the frog and the fouling point.  These gaps should be as close to the frog as is reasonably possible given the track construction methods used. 

The rationale is this – In theory, (most, there are always exceptions <>) operators will keep equipment beyond the fouling point so trains don’t snag on each other.  If they do that (as they should), and the gaps are between the frog and the fouling point, the metal wheels of stopped equipment are unlikely to span the gap, potentially creating a short if the turnout is thrown against the equipment spanning that gap.

 

We had an incident on a local layout where this actually occurred.  Track was hand laid, and one side of the frog extended about six inches down the yard track.  A train entered the track from the far end of the yard and pulled down to the far end, where it stopped with one of its front wheels spanning the frog gap.  As the engineer was moving slow, he was almost stopped when tht axle spanned that gap, and didn’t notice that he’d straddled the gap.  The turnout was against him, so the frog was one polarity and the rail under the train the opposite.   Additionally this was the last train of the session, so the short went completely un-noticed.  The layout was shut down and we went to beans.  Several work sessions passed where we had track power on for various reasons.  When we finally went to move the train for re-staging purposes, it wouldn’t move.  Inspection revealed that the gear on the front axle had gotten so hot that the plastic had flowed around the bearing block on that side of the axle, and had cooled around the bearing block effectively freezing the mechanism.  Layout owner, not realizing that any of this had happened, attempted to move the train by turning up speed on throttle.  Only thing that happened is track to decoder and decoder to motor wiring got hot and the insulation burned off.

All of this would have been avoided if the gaps had placed properly  (between the frog and the fouling point originally.

 

Best regards,

 

Steve Haas

Snoqualmie, WA

 





Are you suggesting gaps closer to or farther from the frog?  Could you explain what you mean with a little more detail? Or point us to a diagram or discussion.

Thanks!

bob

 

Good construction minimizes a host of errors – keep those gaps inside the fouling point of your turnouts and equipment and it will reduce the number of problems due to shorts by reducing the possibility of shorts.

 

Best regards,

 

 

Steve Haas

Snoqualmie, WA

 

 


size=2 width="100%" align=center>


Spam
Not spam
Forget previous vote


Re: DCC Track Design for review

Scott H. Haycock
 

Brian,
You aren't looking in the Yahoo Group, but in a blog. Try this: http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/WiringForDCC/files 



Scott Haycock
Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantm
ent


 






I still don't see "files" on either of these pages??

Sorry, Perhaps I'm just computer 'challenged'
Brian








Re: BEST

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

If you are truly a beginner, or just wanting some pointers, start reading at http://www.wiringfordcc.com/intro2dcc.htm. Skim through the parts you understand. Home in on the links to locate general topics of immediate interest. Once you are more familiar with DCC, use Allan’s index to locate more detailed information on those same or related topics.

Just be aware that there is always more than one method to solve a problem… and certainly more related opinions. And of course, more than one manufacturer ready to sell you his product line. Some solutions and products work better than others.

Allan’s site hopefully gives you the information you need to recognize the cause of occasional issues that happen with DCC and at least one method to avoid them.

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] On Behalf Of dvollrath@...
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 10:19 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] RE: BEST

Allan's best practices are already compiled on his website www.wiringfordcc.com. There are no absolute rules. There are simply lots of good ideas and methods of wiring a layout to make it more reliable and trouble free in the long run with plenty of explanations and as to why. Your trains will not necessarily or suddenly stop if you violate one or two of the recommended practices. But they can. And there is the root reason to have recommended practices.

There will always be plenty of anecdotal stories as evidence that you can get by with 'cheating' on any one of the recommended guidelines or methods. The simple reason is that there so many variables, and acceptable performance expectations by different folks, that one simple set of rigid rules will not cover every possible combination of problems or solutions. Nor will it necessarily please everyone because it "seems" to work OK without it. 

DonV

 

BEST

colinseggie@...
 

Thanks Don, No I'm not a beginner, and yes Allans "gospel" is an inspiring wealth of knowledge. Have I read all of it --NO-- thats why I belong to this forum.
Was just looking for a short cut---- but I guess its back to the same old, same old! Read the B$6&%y Manual!   ~;>)
Doc Colin

Re: BEST

dvollrath@...
 

Doc,

The only way to take an educational short cut is to ask a specific question with lots of details as to why you are asking it. That is about the only way those of us that answer have any clues to what your concerns really are and in what direction the answer should lean (low cost, easy to do, must work with product X, Scale, sole operator layout or multi-operator club, etc.). So... Ask away.

DonV  

Re: DCC Track Design for review

Chuck Stiles
 

I Went to the Amherst show in MA over the weekend
I spoke with Marty Naul "a sales Manager for Digitrax".
I ended up making my decision on going with Digitrax DCC control
I picked up two AR1 Automatic reversing controls, one for the reversing section and one for the turntable
I also bought a Zephyr Plus and UT4 aux throttle to get me started
I decided to go with the Team Digital SRC-16 and four MotoD controllers to operate my Tortoise switch machines
This will allow me access for turnout control thru the Loco Net and I can use the JMRI software to operate them as well as building a dispatch panel with momentary switches and LED monitors for each turnout

Chuck Stiles
NJ

Re: DCC Track Design for review

Brian Eiland
 

To tell the truth, I'm getting tired of this mess about signing in and security and finding certain web pages, and on and on and on,,,,etc  ....on Yahoo in particular !!

All I am doing is trying to participate in a forum discussion. How is that going to be a security risk? I'm over in Thailand at the moment visiting with my wife, ...and noe Yahoo tells me they don't recognize me at the moment, and they want me to fill out this long form and pick YET ANOTHER new password that I will have to try and remember along with a couple hundred other ones I have!. Its just not worth my time any longer....sorry, I can only remember just a certain number of passwords and variations on same.
Brian




On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 4:25 AM, Scott H. Haycock <shhaycock@...> wrote:
 

Brian,
You aren't looking in the Yahoo Group, but in a blog. Try this: http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/WiringForDCC/files 



Scott Haycock
Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantm
ent


 






I still don't see "files" on either of these pages??

Sorry, Perhaps I'm just computer 'challenged'
Brian









Re: DCC Track Design for review

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

Good Choices.

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] On Behalf Of capnchuck@...
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2014 6:03 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] DCC Track Design for review

 



I Went to the Amherst show in MA over the weekend
I spoke with Marty Naul "a sales Manager for Digitrax".
I ended up making my decision on going with Digitrax DCC control
I picked up two AR1 Automatic reversing controls, one for the reversing section and one for the turntable
I also bought a Zephyr Plus and UT4 aux throttle to get me started
I decided to go with the Team Digital SRC-16 and four MotoD controllers to operate my Tortoise switch machines
This will allow me access for turnout control thru the Loco Net and I can use the JMRI software to operate them as well as building a dispatch panel with momentary switches and LED monitors for each turnout

Chuck Stiles
NJ