Date   
Re: 90 degree cross overs - HELP!!!

Carl
 

Hello Bob:

I looked at the first image and you don't have a reversing situation. The 90° crossing should be fully insulated. It is only reversing if the train can turn around and follow the same route back. The train will go up the hill and then follow the figure "8" until you back down the hill. Your Procab system should handle it fine with out a second power district. Having extra blocks that you can isolate would be great for trouble shooting and I would recommend it.

Good luck, Carl.

Re: 90 degree cross overs - HELP!!!

Glenn
 

Carl,

 

Do not power the upper level from the turnout. Just use the same power feeders and run additional wires to the upper level.

 

Follow the outer rail up from the lower level and attach the same feeder to the same rail just after the switch. Do the same for the inner rail. You should not need additional feeders unless you have current loss.

 

Glenn

 


From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] On Behalf Of Carl
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 23:27
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] 90 degree cross overs - HELP!!!

 



Hello Bob:

I looked at the first image and you don't have a reversing situation. The 90° crossing should be fully insulated. It is only reversing if the train can turn around and follow the same route back. The train will go up the hill and then follow the figure "8" until you back down the hill. Your Procab system should handle it fine with out a second power district. Having extra blocks that you can isolate would be great for trouble shooting and I would recommend it.

Good luck, Carl.


Re: 90 degree cross overs - HELP!!!

Bob Pombrio <bob_pombrio@...>
 

Thanks guys!  If I had done this to begin with I would have seen you are correct. I like the idea of it being isolated incase of expansion but still wired off the main as well.  And yes I am planning on running loan wolf, my help is an artist who is only interested in doing the scenery and not operating it.

Since to start with I only have 1 engine (we know that's not gonna last!) for now I don't think I will exceed the capacity.  Yet.

Thanks for the help,
Bob P.


From: Paul O
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 11:23 PM
Subject: RE: [WiringForDCC] 90 degree cross overs - HELP!!!

 
Bob, you don’t have a polarity problem in your figure 8.
 
Pick a starting point; put your finger on a rail; trace that rail all around the 8; when you get back to where you started, you are still on the same rail.
 
No problem feeding from the lower level, just don’t cross the bus wires.
 
Second power district is up to you:
n  Do you plan on running lone wolf? Then it doesn’t matter if the whole layout goes down with a short.
n  Multiple users? Power districts and/or circuit breakers are a good idea.
 
Even if you decide on no power districts, it might be a good idea to put some insulated joiners in case you decide later to subdivide.
Just wire to the common bus now and separate later if necessary.
 
One cab can run the entire layout as long as you don’t exceed capacity of the system.
 
Paul O
 
From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] On Behalf Of bob_pombrio@...
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 8:43 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] 90 degree cross overs - HELP!!!
 
  OK here is hoping I can describe what I am trying to do clearly.
 
 I am trying to set up a second level to my layout and it is going to have what amounts to is a figure 8 layout.  I know enough to see that my 'outer' rail will get converted to a 'inner' but I am confused.  How do I switch polarity? To make matters worse I plan to have it "fed" from the lower set of track via a turn out,  I have a couple of questions if you don't mind.
 
1. Can I run this upper level with the same NCE Procab system that I am using on the lower level?
 
2. Do I need a second power district/system?
 
Here is a link to a copy of the image. http://postimg.org/image/hk2u0vjhf/ 
This image link might work as well. [url=http://postimg.org/image/hk2u0vjhf/][img]http://s21.postimg.org/hk2u0vjhf/upper.jpg[/img][/url]
 
 
Thanks,
Bob P.


BUS

ctcdn2006
 

Guys, would like to confirm something, I am starting to wire my layout for DCC and want to add district breakers, now this means that I need basically to run two set of bus, one from the command stn around and from it wires to the breaker and then from the breaker a new set of bus on which all the feeder wires will go Am I right

Charls

Re: BUS

Dale Gloer
 

Charls,


typically you would install the circuit breakers adjacent to the Command Station/Booster and run your bus wires from the circuit breakers directly to the section of track that is powered and protected by each circuit breaker.  You should try to install your Command Station/Booster in a central location to your layout to minimize the length of you buses as much as practical.


Dale Gloer

Re: BUS

Blayne & Anne
 

-Should we be using solid or stranded wire for the bus when using suitcase connectors?

Re: BUS

Carl
 

Hi:

I prefer stranded wire for its flexibility. As a kid Dad wired my layout with solid Aluminum doorbell wire. It was a real pain since it would crack and split inside the insulation and you couldn't see the break. I know solid copper wire is as prone to split, but I just don't trust it. Notice: no solid wires in your car. I do like the suitcase connectors, just not the cost each.

Carl.

On 12/14/2013 11:10 AM, bolsen187@... wrote:
 



-Should we be using solid or stranded wire for the bus when using suitcase connectors?
>


Re: BUS

Mark Gurries
 

The suitcase connectors themselves do not care if the wire is stranded or not.  What they do care about is the proper wire gauge is used that is compatible with the choosen suitcase (IDC)connector.  To small or to large will lead to connection failure.


On Dec 14, 2013, at 8:10 AM, bolsen187@... wrote:



-Should we be using solid or stranded wire for the bus when using suitcase connectors?





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Re: Dbl crossover wiring for Nscale DCC

rcbcamper@...
 

Allan,

What would the brand be for a frog juicer and where do the physical connections get made on the vrossoverI

I too will try to throw manually to start but how do I wire the connections ?

Ihave a diagram from this site for the wiring but I don't lnow whahere the power is applied?

If U can help I would appreciate yout help at rcbcamper@...


Re: BUS

Blayne & Anne
 

I just took delivery of an NCE system and my dealer said to run the bus from the command station and then split the bus so that the district breaker is near the center of the district. come out of the breaker and run the bus in two directions so as to shorten the path from the end of the district to the breaker. Blayne

--- In WiringForDCC@..., <customtrains@...> wrote:


Guys, would like to confirm something, I am starting to wire my layout for DCC and want to add district breakers, now this means that I need basically to run two set of bus, one from the command stn around and from it wires to the breaker and then from the breaker a new set of bus on which all the feeder wires will go Am I right
Charls

Re: Dbl crossover wiring for Nscale DCC

fred starr
 

try fast tracks fred

--- In WiringForDCC@..., <rcbcamper@...> wrote:

Allan,
What would the brand be for a frog juicer and where do the physical connections get made on the vrossoverI
I too will try to throw manually to start but how do I wire the connections ?
Ihave a diagram from this site for the wiring but I don't lnow whahere the power is applied?
If U can help I would appreciate yout help at rcbcamper@...

Re: BUS

asychis@...
 

"Guys, would like to confirm something, I am starting to wire my layout for DCC and want to add district breakers, now this means that I need basically to run two set of bus, one from the command stn around and from it wires to the breaker and then from the breaker a new set of bus on which all the feeder wires will go Am I right "
 
Yes I believe you are.  Run the DCC power from the command station to the breakers and out from the breakers to the sections of track you want to use as a power district.  We use PM42's on a Digitrax layout, and run a stranded 14-gauge 3-wire bus from the DCS200 to an array of PM4s's that have four breakers per unit, and then out to the various power districts or blocks. Don't know if you are using Digitrax or not, but one critical factor to remember is that you must run a ground wire from the Command Station case to the PM42's to keep everything in phase.  I suppose something similar is required in other systems.  That's why we use 3-wire busses, black and white for the power leads out and the green as the ground.  Note this is not the AC ground, but simply a wire typing the command station and accessories to the same reference voltage.
 
The distance the bus runs from the command station to the circuit breakers doesn't seem to be a problem for us.  The max is probably 25 feet.
 
Jerry Michels
Amarillo Railroad Museum 

Re: BUS

Mark Gurries
 

If you feeding a long track bus that is long...60 to 80 feet, this makes the most sense.  Divide and concur.   But the booster should also be at the center tap point right next to the DCC circuit breaker.

If you do not have really long bus runs, the best solution is the one that involves the least amount of bus wire to implement.

From a pure electrical point of view, DCC circuit breaker work better when located closer to the booster than farther away.


On Dec 15, 2013, at 6:26 PM, bolsen187@... wrote:

I just took delivery of an NCE system and my dealer said to run the bus from the command station and then split the bus so that the district breaker is near the center of the district. come out of the breaker and run the bus in two directions so as to shorten the path from the end of the district to the breaker. Blayne

--- In WiringForDCC@..., wrote:


Guys, would like to confirm something, I am starting to wire my layout for DCC and want to add district breakers, now this means that I need basically to run two set of bus, one from the command stn around and from it wires to the breaker and then from the breaker a new set of bus on which all the feeder wires will go Am I right
Charls




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Re: BUS

Mark Gurries
 

The ground wire is unique to Digitrax accessory products.  Most other DCC system do not require a system ground wire for the accessories.  


On Dec 15, 2013, at 7:34 PM, asychis@... wrote:



"Guys, would like to confirm something, I am starting to wire my layout for DCC and want to add district breakers, now this means that I need basically to run two set of bus, one from the command stn around and from it wires to the breaker and then from the breaker a new set of bus on which all the feeder wires will go Am I right "
 
Yes I believe you are.  Run the DCC power from the command station to the breakers and out from the breakers to the sections of track you want to use as a power district.  We use PM42's on a Digitrax layout, and run a stranded 14-gauge 3-wire bus from the DCS200 to an array of PM4s's that have four breakers per unit, and then out to the various power districts or blocks. Don't know if you are using Digitrax or not, but one critical factor to remember is that you must run a ground wire from the Command Station case to the PM42's to keep everything in phase.  I suppose something similar is required in other systems.  That's why we use 3-wire busses, black and white for the power leads out and the green as the ground.  Note this is not the AC ground, but simply a wire typing the command station and accessories to the same reference voltage.
 
The distance the bus runs from the command station to the circuit breakers doesn't seem to be a problem for us.  The max is probably 25 feet.
 
Jerry Michels
Amarillo Railroad Museum 



Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Re: BUS

Annette and Dante Fuligni
 

Actually, for some IDCs, 3M does qualify the accommodated wire sizes according to whether the wire is solid or stranded:
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?mwsId=66666UgxGCuNyXTtn8Ta5Xs6EVtQEcuZgVs6EVs6E666666--&fn=EMD%20IDC%20Brochure%208040233.pdf

Dante

Re: Dbl crossover wiring for Nscale DCC

wirefordcc
 

As someone mentioned, you can buy a frog juicer from Fast Tracks @ http://www.handlaidtrack.com/Universal-Hex-Frog-Juicer-p/hfj003u.htm  There is a single, double, and a hex frog juicer.  The hex juicer for example can operate six turnouts.


You didn't mention which brand of double crossover you are using (I'm not familiar with what is available for N-scale, but maybe someone else is).  An example of wiring a HO Walthers double crossover can be found at:  http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm#a22 


Wiring a frog juicer is really easy.  Just attach two wires to your bus (shown red and blue in my diagram) and then run the frog wire (shown green) to the frog. 

Blocking DCC

john
 

I belong to the Cross Roads Rail Road Club in the Dayton area. We have been a DC club for 30 years so you can imagine the DC equipment we have accumulated.
We are presently adding, not converting, DCC. In an effort to avoid burning up our vintage stuff and some nice stuff that doesn't lend itself to conversion I would like to block the AC current and signal from getting to DC motors using a choke. My problem is I don't know the frequencies involved in the Digitrax signal and current. I am reasonably sure that the track current is very close to what I put in, 16 volts AC and about 14 volts AC at the track.
Does anyone know the frequencies involved, Digitrax couldn't tell me and I couldn't find the data anywhere.
Thank you
JD

Re: Blocking DCC

Douglas Krahn
 

John:

First of all, Contrary to what many believe,  DCC  IS NOT AC.  I'm assuming from your statement about constructing a choke  you plan on somehow to build an RF filter to block the signal. I do not have a solution for you at this time; however, this is a great group and if it is possible, they will most likely be able to resolve  your problem.

Doug K

From: john
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2013 9:33 PM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Blocking DCC
 
I belong to the Cross Roads Rail Road Club in the Dayton area. We have been a DC club for 30 years so you can imagine the DC equipment we have accumulated.
We are presently adding, not converting, DCC. In an effort to avoid burning up our vintage stuff and some nice stuff that doesn't lend itself to conversion I would like to block the AC current and signal from getting to DC motors using a choke. My problem is I don't know the frequencies involved in the Digitrax signal and current. I am reasonably sure that the track current is very close to what I put in, 16 volts AC and about 14 volts AC at the track.
Does anyone know the frequencies involved, Digitrax couldn't tell me and I couldn't find the data anywhere.
Thank you
JD

Re: BUS

asychis@...
 

Mark wrote: "If you feeding a long track bus that is long...60 to 80 feet, this makes the most sense. Divide and concur. But the booster should also be at the center tap point right next to the DCC circuit breaker.

If you do not have really long bus runs, the best solution is the one that involves the least amount of bus wire to implement.

From a pure electrical point of view, DCC circuit breaker work better when located closer to the booster than farther away."
 
Our experience differs in some ways.  Currently we have a centrally-located Digitrax DCS200 and run the main DCC power feed bus out to a terminal strip panel about 6 feet away.  On that panel we feed three PM42s (12 circuit breakers/power districts).  From there, a bus runs out from each PM42 circuit breaker to 12 blocks on the railroad.  We have a second DCC power feed bus from the terminal strip on the panel to a second array of three PM42s about 30 feet away, and the 12 buses from those PM42s feed an additional 12 power districts.  The bus length ranges from around 20 feet to over 100 feet.  All busses are 14 gauge, stranded wire, 3-conductor extension cords with the green wire being used only if needed for the DCC reference ground Digitrax requires. Feeders are soldered to the track every three feet or as needed around turnouts and crossovers using 20 gauge stranded wire.
 
I don't know about the theoretical electrical implications of this setup, but it is up and running, and running very well.  We have tested it with up to 12 locomotives running at the same time scattered across the layout (50 x 75' room), and have not noted a loss of power even at the far end of a bus.  There is one point where the far point of a bus over 100 feet in length interfaces with a bus of around 25 feet, and there is no noticeable difference when a multiple-unit diesel consist crosses the gap. Our layout is not complete.  This is the setup for the lower level and we have an entire upper level to build that will be fed from a DB200+ 
 
I the future, we will further divide the buses into smaller blocks as we set up a signal system (most likely using BDL16s downstream of the PM42s).  At some time we may need to break the lower level into additional power districts by adding a DB200+ if we start to notice erratic operations.
 
Jerry Michels
Amarillo Railroad Museum

Re: Blocking DCC

Carl
 

Hello JD:

Perhaps a relay to the motor that only closes when DC is available?

Carl.

On 12/17/2013 1:40 AM, Douglas Krahn wrote:
 
John:

First of all, Contrary to what many believe,  DCC  IS NOT AC.  I'm assuming from your statement about constructing a choke  you plan on somehow to build an RF filter to block the signal. I do not have a solution for you at this time; however, this is a great group and if it is possible, they will most likely be able to resolve  your problem.

Doug K
From: john
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2013 9:33 PM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Blocking DCC
 
I belong to the Cross Roads Rail Road Club in the Dayton area. We have been a DC club for 30 years so you can imagine the DC equipment we have accumulated.
We are presently adding, not converting, DCC. In an effort to avoid burning up our vintage stuff and some nice stuff that doesn't lend itself to conversion I would like to block the AC current and signal from getting to DC motors using a choke. My problem is I don't know the frequencies involved in the Digitrax signal and current. I am reasonably sure that the track current is very close to what I put in, 16 volts AC and about 14 volts AC at the track.
Does anyone know the frequencies involved, Digitrax couldn't tell me and I couldn't find the data anywhere.
Thank you
JD