1. w4dccqa@groups.io
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Re: Forgive my ignorance! Am I creating several reverse loops on my proposed layout?

Tom O Hara
 

It is much easier to see with your colorizing.

Someone suggested that you take this to the layout design group, and I agree that is a better place to get more opinions. But I would make a few comments to get you started. The left end with the yard has at least three reversing loops... maybe four. Including ones inside others. These would be very difficult to wire and maintain the logic. The middle second goes around and around with not much operation connection to the rest of the railroad. The right hand end is a spaghetti  bowl of track that would be hard to build and goes around the same scenery in a confusing and, I think you'd find, very redundant path. There may be another reverse loop trapped between the right and left ends, but I am not sure.

Again, I think this is more a subject for the Layout Design group. But I really hope you'll reconsider the center and right sections to have less track and a simpler flow. I think you'd like the operation much better. 

.....Tom
Re: Forgive my ignorance! Am I creating several reverse loops on my proposed layout?

whmvd
 

Hi Tom,

It *IS* a lot clearer, thanks!

So far, after looking for about 5 minutes, I spotted four reversing sections, but I haven't paid enough attention yet to what's going on top right. There might well be a fifth lurking there. Truth is, I'm getting a bit dizzy! :-)

Wouter


On Mon, 4 Mar 2019 at 02:02, Tom G. via Groups.Io <tjg81296=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Tom,

Hopefully this is clearer. The main concern is that I have the yard approachable from both sides. Would that be considered a reverse loop even if I insulate the rail joiners at the switches and bus power on both sides individually?

Am I incorrectly looking at the wiring?

I color coded to make it clearer. I know, it's not perfect but you can differentiate the lines a bit more.

I took a snip of each section Left, Center and Right. Links below:
If there's  a better way for all to view please let me know!
Thank you!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ur1n6s459r2safj/TomG_W4DCCQA_LayoutYard_LeftSide.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d9c8lb1xbh06kxi/TomG_W4DCCQA_LayoutCenter.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/84vf6h3t4edq9ld/TomG_W4DCCQA_LayoutMountain_RightSide.jpg?dl=0

Re: Forgive my ignorance! Am I creating several reverse loops on my proposed layout?

Mark Cartwright
 

Tom....

Three Suggestions as you are new to DCC and perhaps N Scale Unitrack
(but for now...I will only burden you with one)
1. Kato Unitrack (computer generated) plans can be a bit deceptive as to actual performance and even given spacing.
 Looking at your basic design, I believe you will be running short 4 Wheel Switchers and short trains of 5-7 cars.
That is not Passenger Trains of ABBA consists with upwards of 17-21 cars or even short to medium steam locomotives.
And in the retrospect...
That is after you have created this plan for actual use....
>>> You maybe sorry.
Every switch, every tight curve, every reverse loop and every graduation of track into an ever increasing percentage of grade is just looking for trouble.
Plus when ever possible Avoid S Curves or those transitions which even suggest such a thing.
So..
>>>  My first suggestion is to ONLY run the outside single track first. <<<
That is the Green Line.
This too will change as you test it and run it with your preferred locomotive and train length.
Once you have it up and running....
Step back and think again.....
FIRST = Find Success !
============================
There is so much more to learn and un-learn.
I would really like to see you SURVIVE your first layout.
:)) Mark

Consider this Man's Journey through N Scale as inspiration to your own efforts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUTS7qXQERX8n9x8dgIFxI0w&time_continue=373&v=DXEMFjB-u00

One more strong suggestion...
Share with us...Which of the many or few perhaps just one N Scale Locomotive you are considering operating upon your layout.
Not everything in N Scale will operate well even on 19 inch curves; nor through #6 Kato Switches.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/267707.aspx

And Yes, Manufacturers Lie; while most Train Store Clerks don't actually have an Operational N Scale Layout at Home.
They are simply doing what the Economics of Today demand and are throwing a wider loop to bring in a larger herd.
With that said....I tend to be a Maverick and test everything for and upon my layout.
My given radius for my N Scale Layout is currently 28 to 71 inches and includes mostly Parabolic Curves...Not 90 Degree Curves.
Re: Forgive my ignorance! Am I creating several reverse loops on my proposed layout?

Brian Eiland
 

Plus NMRA has a special interest group that plans layouts, you might look them up.

http://www.ldsig.org/

Carl.
************************************************
I looked up this site that you quoted, and I didn't detect that there was 'active help' in designing a new track plan. And it appeared as though some of the material is very dated (I saw one reference to 2006).

One of the reasons I was drawn to this conversation is that I am building a new double deck layout,...and I'm new to DCC,....and I am challenged by the electrical wiring. So I am definitely going to need help on wiring, and particularly reverse loops.

Brian
Re: New Turnouts

wirefordcc
 

I have added the new Kato Unifrog to my website.  See at:  http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_peco.htm

If anyone else knows of changes of other turnouts that electrically change a turnout, please drop me a line.

Thank you

Allan Gartner
Wiring For DCC
Re: New file uploaded to w4dccqa@groups.io

Dennis Cherry
 

Trying not to put insulated gaps on curves. and try to minimize rail joints on curves. if you need to add rail joints on curves first connect them as two straight sections then make the curve.
Look at some YouTube videos on connecting track will help you understand the process.
Re: Wiring problem

Jay
 

Hi!
Your Pic did not come through.
2 questions, did you put isolators at both ends of the reverser section?
Are they far enough apart?

Jay
Re: Wiring problem

whmvd
 

Hello Charles,

Unfortunately, in-line pictures and attachments are not coming through. They have t be uploaded to the 'photos' section you will see when logged in to groups.io. Let us know when that's done, and somebody will be sure to chime in.

Wouter


On Mon, 4 Mar 2019 at 15:24, Charles Cauble <drbeetlebaum@...> wrote:
Just started back this year (since I retired at 70) after a 40 year absence from my old DC layouts I started wiring when I was 12.  Still have that train.  So far I’ve been able to slowly figure out wiring a new DCC layout in progress but now have run into a problem with what I think may be a loop.  When I’ve tried to add a MRC auto reverser it shorts my NCE 5 amp system down.  Here is a drawing of the section in question.  Any ideas on where to attach auto reverse?  Help would be greatly appreciated because at this point I’m stumped.

Charles Cauble
Re: New Turnouts

emrldsky
 

Are these the same as the ones in the older Kato HO turnouts? I know that some versions of those have jumpers to select power routing, or not.


Peace,

Mike G.


On 3/4/2019 6:59 AM, wirefordcc wrote:
I have added the new Kato Unifrog to my website.  See at:  http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_peco.htm

If anyone else knows of changes of other turnouts that electrically change a turnout, please drop me a line.

Thank you

Allan Gartner
Wiring For DCC

Re: Wiring problem

Tim Johnson
 

Charles,

I just checked on the w4dccqa groups.io site after logging in. The photos should be an option on the left side panel. When I click there, I see all the posted photos.

Tim
Timothy A Johnson, Tucson, AZ (www.sbb-bls-bahnen.com)
European Train Enthusiasts, Central Arizona Chapter (www.ete.org)
On 3/4/2019 10:58 AM, Charles Cauble wrote:

I’m logged into  groups.io and updated my account profile but I can’t find “photos”
Re: Powering Hinged Point Rails

John Bishop
 

Hi Tom,

Sounds like that will work fine -- and obviously does. 

My situation is a little different since I make my own switches, so there is no plastic do deal with, but electrically, we are both doing the same thing.  I do like the desoldering braid across the hinge because it is so flexible. I assume the liquid flux you use is the rosin in alcohol type, which I also like, and any cleanup can be done with alcohol on a Q-tip.   But as rule I find that is the rail is cleaned bright, then the flux- cored solder is fine by itself, even using steel rail.

Again, I should qualify that I am in O scale, but using code .100 rail.

John B

On Saturday, March 2, 2019, 7:49:33 AM PST, Tom Jones <tomjones4884@...> wrote:


John,  Like the John who responded I have also modified over 500 turnouts of all brands including over 100 fast-track turnouts to make them truely "DCC Friendly" . I use 26 gauge solid wire. I don't do any pre-preparing (is that a word?) of new turnouts but I use liquid flux that needs no cleanup. If I am doing a turnout pre-install to the layout I solder a wire around the hinge from the frog to the hinge as John mentioned and then I flip the turnout over and solder a wire from the stock rail to the "frog rail" Ometimes depending on manufacturer you need to cut out a bit of plastic to accomplish this. You can do this also if the turnout is already inplace with a little more work. The hinge wire remains the same but you need to make a small 90 degree bend in your wire and snake it under the stock rail and on to your frog rail. Solder and then wrap your wire to the outside of your stock rail in a small 90 degree bend and solder. Not as eligant but you now have a completely DCC ready turnout. CAVEAT: This assumes you have an isolated frog and are not using anything like the Peco Electrofrog turnout. My 2 cents...tj
Re: Forgive my ignorance! Am I creating several reverse loops on my proposed layout?

Carl
 

Hi Brian:

I'm not a member of the group, but they always have a busy room at the National Convention. Since my layout is finished, it isn't an interest to me. I used John Armstrong's suggestions in my planning, 20 years ago!! How time flies. If you join the group they may have more options for help??

The design elements I did use were:

Around the walls plan. Stair way up into the center for people, so no duck under.

Double track main line around the room three times.

Main Yard on one wall and three towns to switch on the other walls.

Hidden in a mountain two reversing loops where the track drops, so one loop over the mains, and one under.

During operating sessions the layout is run as a dog bone, so the main is three times clock wise and then three times counter clock wise.

For visitor displays I can run two trains on loops.

40% of the main is in tunnels, so it makes the runs appear longer.

Carl.

On 3/4/2019 8:28 AM, Brian Eiland wrote:

Plus NMRA has a special interest group that plans layouts, you might look them up.

http://www.ldsig.org/

Carl.
************************************************
I looked up this site that you quoted, and I didn't detect that there was 'active help' in designing a new track plan. And it appeared as though some of the material is very dated (I saw one reference to 2006).

One of the reasons I was drawn to this conversation is that I am building a new double deck layout,...and I'm new to DCC,....and I am challenged by the electrical wiring. So I am definitely going to need help on wiring, and particularly reverse loops.

Brian

Virus-free. www.avast.com

Reverse Loop Finder

rhemker
 

Just placed my simple method of finding reverse loops in the Photos section. I find a truck and place a small piece of blue tape on one side of the truck. Then, I place the truck on the track with the blue tape on the north rail and run it around the layout. If you find the blue tape winds up on a south rail then you've discovered a reverse loop. This works for simple reverse loops but not sure if it will work on complicated reverse loops within loops. Can't remember where I got this tip but, be sure I did not discover it.
Re: Reverse Loop Finder

Tom G.
 

Thanks for the tip!

Can someone explain why my thinking is incorrect? If you gap the rails into the loop and apply bus power to both sides, separately, why does it matter if there’s a reverse loop? Won’t the train just get power and keep trucking?

Thanks.
Tom

On Mar 4, 2019, at 3:35 PM, rhemker <rhemker@...> wrote:

Just placed my simple method of finding reverse loops in the Photos section. I find a truck and place a small piece of blue tape on one side of the truck. Then, I place the truck on the track with the blue tape on the north rail and run it around the layout. If you find the blue tape winds up on a south rail then you've discovered a reverse loop. This works for simple reverse loops but not sure if it will work on complicated reverse loops within loops. Can't remember where I got this tip but, be sure I did not discover it.

Re: Reverse Loop Finder

David Klemm
 

Tom,

Best to draw it out so you can see it. First yes you double gap both ends. If you draw the rails on paper with one being black and the other rail say red. When the red meets up with a black you have a short. Thus the need for a double gap. But an engine or lighted passenger car is not on one side and then magically on the other side of the gap. You have for a period of time one truck on one side and the other truck on the other side. 

So you need a way to flip polarity very fast.

More complicated is if your reverse loop isn’t long enough. But that is for later after you get the above concept. 

David Klemm
Xs Max

From: w4dccqa@groups.io on behalf of Tom G. via Groups.Io <tjg81296@...>
Sent: Monday, March 4, 2019 14:46
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] Reverse Loop Finder
 
Thanks for the tip!

Can someone explain why my thinking is incorrect? If you gap the rails into the loop and apply bus power to both sides, separately, why does it matter if there’s a reverse loop? Won’t the train just get power and keep trucking?

Thanks.
Tom

On Mar 4, 2019, at 3:35 PM, rhemker <rhemker@...> wrote:

Just placed my simple method of finding reverse loops in the Photos section. I find a truck and place a small piece of blue tape on one side of the truck. Then, I place the truck on the track with the blue tape on the north rail and run it around the layout. If you find the blue tape winds up on a south rail then you've discovered a reverse loop. This works for simple reverse loops but not sure if it will work on complicated reverse loops within loops. Can't remember where I got this tip but, be sure I did not discover it.

Re: Reverse Loop Finder

rhemker
 

Tom,

My tip will identify the reverse loop and when the positive north rail meets the the negative south rail, a short will occur.

Have a great day

Rick Hemker

From: w4dccqa@groups.io <w4dccqa@groups.io> on behalf of Tom G. via Groups.Io <tjg81296@...>
Sent: Monday, March 4, 2019 2:46 PM
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] Reverse Loop Finder
 
Thanks for the tip!

Can someone explain why my thinking is incorrect? If you gap the rails into the loop and apply bus power to both sides, separately, why does it matter if there’s a reverse loop? Won’t the train just get power and keep trucking?

Thanks.
Tom

On Mar 4, 2019, at 3:35 PM, rhemker <rhemker@...> wrote:

Just placed my simple method of finding reverse loops in the Photos section. I find a truck and place a small piece of blue tape on one side of the truck. Then, I place the truck on the track with the blue tape on the north rail and run it around the layout. If you find the blue tape winds up on a south rail then you've discovered a reverse loop. This works for simple reverse loops but not sure if it will work on complicated reverse loops within loops. Can't remember where I got this tip but, be sure I did not discover it.

Re: Reverse Loop Finder

Tom G.
 

David,

Thank you, I understand. I understand the reason the whole train (or at least all powered sections need to be on one side as well. Thank you! 

Thanks.
Tom

On Mar 4, 2019, at 3:54 PM, David Klemm <davidklemm7511@...> wrote:

Tom,

Best to draw it out so you can see it. First yes you double gap both ends. If you draw the rails on paper with one being black and the other rail say red. When the red meets up with a black you have a short. Thus the need for a double gap. But an engine or lighted passenger car is not on one side and then magically on the other side of the gap. You have for a period of time one truck on one side and the other truck on the other side. 

So you need a way to flip polarity very fast.

More complicated is if your reverse loop isn’t long enough. But that is for later after you get the above concept. 

David Klemm
Xs Max
From: w4dccqa@groups.io on behalf of Tom G. via Groups.Io <tjg81296@...>
Sent: Monday, March 4, 2019 14:46
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] Reverse Loop Finder
 
Thanks for the tip!

Can someone explain why my thinking is incorrect? If you gap the rails into the loop and apply bus power to both sides, separately, why does it matter if there’s a reverse loop? Won’t the train just get power and keep trucking?

Thanks.
Tom

On Mar 4, 2019, at 3:35 PM, rhemker <rhemker@...> wrote:

Just placed my simple method of finding reverse loops in the Photos section. I find a truck and place a small piece of blue tape on one side of the truck. Then, I place the truck on the track with the blue tape on the north rail and run it around the layout. If you find the blue tape winds up on a south rail then you've discovered a reverse loop. This works for simple reverse loops but not sure if it will work on complicated reverse loops within loops. Can't remember where I got this tip but, be sure I did not discover it.

Re: Reverse Loop Finder

Carl
 

Hi Gang:

Working on two layouts that are "around the room" style I like to pick a point in the center. The reversing loops are anywhere direction switches from CW to CCW. The HO layout I help with was figured differently, it started as a "dog bone" with two cross overs that reversed direction. Then they connected the ends of the "dog bone" forming a third reversing section. If we had wired it thinking from the center, only the "dog bone" loops would have been reversing.

Plus, you don't want a long train or two shorter trains crossing the gaps at the same time.

A couple of years ago this group was presented with a layout with reversing questions and from the center point worked for me.

Carl.

On 3/4/2019 4:02 PM, Tom G. via Groups.Io wrote:
David,

Thank you, I understand. I understand the reason the whole train (or at least all powered sections need to be on one side as well. Thank you! 

Thanks.
Tom

On Mar 4, 2019, at 3:54 PM, David Klemm <davidklemm7511@...> wrote:

Tom,

Best to draw it out so you can see it. First yes you double gap both ends. If you draw the rails on paper with one being black and the other rail say red. When the red meets up with a black you have a short. Thus the need for a double gap. But an engine or lighted passenger car is not on one side and then magically on the other side of the gap. You have for a period of time one truck on one side and the other truck on the other side. 

So you need a way to flip polarity very fast.

More complicated is if your reverse loop isn’t long enough. But that is for later after you get the above concept. 

David Klemm
Xs Max
From: w4dccqa@groups.io on behalf of Tom G. via Groups.Io <tjg81296@...>
Sent: Monday, March 4, 2019 14:46
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] Reverse Loop Finder
 
Thanks for the tip!

Can someone explain why my thinking is incorrect? If you gap the rails into the loop and apply bus power to both sides, separately, why does it matter if there’s a reverse loop? Won’t the train just get power and keep trucking?

Thanks.
Tom

On Mar 4, 2019, at 3:35 PM, rhemker <rhemker@...> wrote:

Just placed my simple method of finding reverse loops in the Photos section. I find a truck and place a small piece of blue tape on one side of the truck. Then, I place the truck on the track with the blue tape on the north rail and run it around the layout. If you find the blue tape winds up on a south rail then you've discovered a reverse loop. This works for simple reverse loops but not sure if it will work on complicated reverse loops within loops. Can't remember where I got this tip but, be sure I did not discover it.

Virus-free. www.avast.com

Re: Forgive my ignorance! Am I creating several reverse loops on my proposed layout?

Tom G.
 

Mark/Tom/Wouter,

I cannot thank you guys enough for your input. I agree with Mark, I'm trying to fit as much in here as possible and will end up suffering, It's easier to add than take away later and have money tossed for parts I don't need. I'm concerned at the level of technical difficulty in operations as well. I did my best to keep my radius above 11" using only two curves at 11" with the majority in 13 3/4" and 12 3/8". Based on what you said, should I be steering away from Kato? I looked at the links you sent and man, my space shrunk by a lot. If I need 28" radius how does Kato even stay in business? I thought I was doing well with my curves. I'd like to know more but I don't want to flood everyone with emails since the group gets them all.

I am sharing the track plan made with Scarm ( if it makes it easier to see the layout) My thoughts on Scarm and the layout is I will make adjustments as I go along the build process. 

I changed the right side to more of an oval helix like a train around a mountain.

Scarm Layout:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/q78e8nhkd63t3tn/GradyPlayroomScarm_v25.scarm?dl=0

Yard:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qp7f0vm1jfcsxpi/TomG_W4DCCQA_Layout_Yard_LeftSideV25.jpg?dl=0

Center Section:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xx6co6a1gv80g90/TomG_W4DCCQA_Layout_CenterV25.jpg?dl=0

Mountain/Right Side Section:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/alfeqd96i6z18pv/TomG_W4DCCQA_Layout_RightSideMountainV25.jpg?dl=0

3D Rendering of Layout:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1opkf41roi55vjx/TomG_W4DCCQA_Layout_3D.jpg?dl=0
Re: Forgive my ignorance! Am I creating several reverse loops on my proposed layout?

Brian Lewis
 

There is certainly a better way. It called 'Attachments'.......

I can scarcely believe that, in 2019, there are still elists  that do not allow them. Why is that pray?

On 04/03/2019 09:34, whmvd wrote:


I took a snip of each section Left, Center and Right. Links below:
If there's  a better way for all to view please let me know!
Thank you!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ur1n6s459r2safj/TomG_W4DCCQA_LayoutYard_LeftSide.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d9c8lb1xbh06kxi/TomG_W4DCCQA_LayoutCenter.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/84vf6h3t4edq9ld/TomG_W4DCCQA_LayoutMountain_RightSide.jpg?dl=0
--

Regards and thanks

 

Brian Lewis