Date   
Re: Buss Wires

wirefordcc
 

Twist each bus pair.  You can run the bus pairs through the same holes in your benchwork.

Allan

Re: Buss Wires

Jerry Michels
 

Tom,

The buss wires can be run through the same hole without a problem.  You can also twist them.  

Jerry Michels
Amarillo Railroad Museum

Re: Buss Wires what else is there

David Hartley <hartleycom@...>
 

All
To twist or not to twist, that is the question and I guess it's up to us as individuals to adopt a "Chubby Checker" approach like he did a number of summers ago or not. What I do know is that they are essential. 
The question I'd like to pose is " is there a long forgotten or unawareness of a CV which enhances performance of a DCC decoder equipped model train. 
Eg 
Bachman 31-659DS class 47 47001 BR Blue ( with sound) 
Is slower than 
Bachmann 31-660A class 47/4 4744 "UNIVERSITY OF NOTTINGHAM BR Blue Large Logo
Principle CVs 2,5,6,3,4 are the same.
 I have a NCE power cab which I got following a discussion at Hattons which I am very pleased with. I'm new to the hobby. 
I look forward to any comments 
Best David 
Twickenham 

 

On 30 Jun 2018, at 14:48, Jerry Michels <gjmichels53@...> wrote:

Tom,

The buss wires can be run through the same hole without a problem.  You can also twist them.  

Jerry Michels
Amarillo Railroad Museum

Re: Buss Wires what else is there

john
 

Twist Again, that is rich.
   Here is the deal, if you run wires in parallel what ever is on one will to some degree cross over. It is exactly the way a transformer works. If it is just AC or DC there is little lost. If on the other hand there is a high frequency signal on an AC or DC carrier, the signal could be increased, diminished or corrupted by a parallel circuit. 
   If you want stranded buss wire buy it to order from a Lowe's, Home Depot, or whoever you have locally. Have the wire the gage, the length, and your color choice rolled into the same coil. Mark the beginning of the coil and tie it in 3 or 4 places so it stays tight. At home drop the coil in a bucked and wrap a loose weight around your wires with a enough weight to keep the loops from flopping out of the bucket. When you pull your wires they will have a nice twist and they will actually pull easier and with less tangling.
   I won't start another argument about how stranded wire is better but it is.
john



On Sunday, July 1, 2018 6:08 PM, David Hartley via Groups.Io <hartleycom@...> wrote:


All
To twist or not to twist, that is the question and I guess it's up to us as individuals to adopt a "Chubby Checker" approach like he did a number of summers ago or not. What I do know is that they are essential. 
The question I'd like to pose is " is there a long forgotten or unawareness of a CV which enhances performance of a DCC decoder equipped model train. 
Eg 
Bachman 31-659DS class 47 47001 BR Blue ( with sound) 
Is slower than 
Bachmann 31-660A class 47/4 4744 "UNIVERSITY OF NOTTINGHAM BR Blue Large Logo
Principle CVs 2,5,6,3,4 are the same.
 I have a NCE power cab which I got following a discussion at Hattons which I am very pleased with. I'm new to the hobby. 
I look forward to any comments 
Best David 
Twickenham 

 

On 30 Jun 2018, at 14:48, Jerry Michels <gjmichels53@...> wrote:

Tom,

The buss wires can be run through the same hole without a problem.  You can also twist them.  

Jerry Michels
Amarillo Railroad Museum


Changes to Website

wirefordcc
 

All,

In preparation for adding a blog, I've decided to do some updating to my website and using new software to do that.  I'm hoping that this will all go smoothly.  But who am I fooling, software changes never go smoothly!  So in anticipation of hitting a few bumps along the way, please, just hang in there.  There is no need to write me as I will probably be aware of anything that doesn't go right.  When I am done and I think that all is well, I'll make another announcement.

Thank you

Allan Gartner
Wiring For DCC

Re: Changes to Website

wirefordcc
 

All,

 

I’m not planning to give you all a blow-by-blow of what is happening in this transition, but you need this one.

 

My website is back up.  I spent some time checking to see if everything is there.  It seems to be.  Some lightning came into the area during the uploading process, so if you find any files that were corrupted during the upload, email me (not this forum) at:  bigboy@... and let me know.  I’ll upload it again.

 

Note that if you don’t specify a file in my website (meaning you entered WiringForDCC.com and not WiringForDCC.com/index.htm) your browser will default to the new WordPress page.  I probably can’t change that and long term, I probably wouldn’t want to.  So DO ENTER   WiringForDCC.com/index.htm.  Any of my other pages you have bookmarked should work as is since they do not rely on the Internet’s defaulting scheme.  If you don’t have WiringFroDCC.com/index.htm bookmarked, please do so for now.

 

For my next trick, I’ll figure out how to at least put a message in the new WordPress page that contains the above and also, hopefully, a link to make it easy.  I don’t plan to announce those triumphs unless something else happens that you need to know.

 

I asked a lot of questions before I went with WordPress.  I’m now afraid some of the answers I got were not completely accurate.  So, the migration process may be much more painful for me then I was led to believe.

 

This day needed to come at some point.  The software I had been using was 14 or so years old.  The company that made it was acquired a long time ago and the software hasn’t been supported in ages.  It definitely is no longer state of the art.  In the end, I’m hoping the webpage is a little prettier and you will enjoy using it. 

 

Thank you

 

Allan Gartner  WiringForDCC.com 

        

 

Re: Changes to Website

wirefordcc
 

All,

 

Corrected spelling error in link below.

 

Allan

 

From: Allan Gartner <bigboy@...>
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2018 7:30 PM
To: 'w4dccqa@groups.io' <w4dccqa@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] Changes to Website

 

All,

 

I’m not planning to give you all a blow-by-blow of what is happening in this transition, but you need this one.

 

My website is back up.  I spent some time checking to see if everything is there.  It seems to be.  Some lightning came into the area during the uploading process, so if you find any files that were corrupted during the upload, email me (not this forum) at:  bigboy@... and let me know.  I’ll upload it again.

 

Note that if you don’t specify a file in my website (meaning you entered WiringForDCC.com and not WiringForDCC.com/index.htm) your browser will default to the new WordPress page.  I probably can’t change that and long term, I probably wouldn’t want to.  So DO ENTER   WiringForDCC.com/index.htm.  Any of my other pages you have bookmarked should work as is since they do not rely on the Internet’s defaulting scheme.  If you don’t have WiringForDCC.com/index.htm bookmarked, please do so for now.

 

For my next trick, I’ll figure out how to at least put a message in the new WordPress page that contains the above and also, hopefully, a link to make it easy.  I don’t plan to announce those triumphs unless something else happens that you need to know.

 

I asked a lot of questions before I went with WordPress.  I’m now afraid some of the answers I got were not completely accurate.  So, the migration process may be much more painful for me then I was led to believe.

 

This day needed to come at some point.  The software I had been using was 14 or so years old.  The company that made it was acquired a long time ago and the software hasn’t been supported in ages.  It definitely is no longer state of the art.  In the end, I’m hoping the webpage is a little prettier and you will enjoy using it. 

 

Thank you

 

Allan Gartner  WiringForDCC.com 

        

 

Re: Changes to Website

Willie de Kort
 

Hi Allan,
Just visited the website.
Can get a certificate for the website?
Now google is 'complaining' it is not safe. And https:// will not open the site.
regards,
Willie

Re: Changes to Website

Jan Boen
 

Hi Willie,


While SSL certs on web site become almost common these days there is no good reason to "protect" the web site traffic with SSL if there is nothing worth protecting.

If you don't have to login to get access to restricted information or you don't exchange personal or banking data then just plain http is still 100% OK regardless of what browsers say.


Just my 2 cents worth based on too many years of IT experience,



Jan


On 08-Jul-18 18:50, Willie de Kort wrote:
Hi Allan,
Just visited the website.
Can get a certificate for the website?
Now google is 'complaining' it is not safe. And https:// will not open the site.
regards,
Willie

Re: Buss Wires

Jay
 

I used 14g Romex on mine for a buss.
My N scale layout is only 35' long & it works fine.

Jay

Re: Buss Wires

dcesharkman
 

Sorry, the Electrical Engineer in me feels compelled to respond: 

Wire is more dependent on quality than size. Twisting is also anecdotal, it does not work in every case to help. I have run 60 feet of  an n scale layout using 16 gauge high quality wire without twisting and have no issues. If you think about it, and 8 Amp controller with 15V track power  is 120 WATTS or the old fashioned light bulb. And lamps use 16 gauge wire because it is 60HZ AC power. But they do not worry about a signal quality just power. And the wire is cheap because lamp cords are not very long and not good for the digital signals of DCC but they do not need to be. 

The twisting adds a bit of capacitive reactance to possibly counteract the normal inductive reactance of the wire. This is thought to keep the waveform from degrading. The proper term is Dispersion. The fact is that most of the real source of dispersion is due to the impurities in the wire. And the larger the wire, the more impurities and the more reactance. There is a grave mistake using the AWG guidelines because they were empirically derived for DC and 60HZ AC, where the DCC signal is a composite of the 8K pulse repetition square wave constructed to contain modulated higher frequencies within the square waves. These other frequencies are much higher than the 8 K pulse frequency. This is why the AMG is not correct.

The fact that DCC has a limit of around 300 feet is because of the harmonics of the modulated information in conjunction with the 8K pulse. There is what is called a harmonic extinction function that is behind the length limitation. Near that point, the waveform becomes unrecognizable because it is getting close to maximum dispersion. This means the information in the signal is lost. These effects are not seen in most cases because the layouts are not close to that large.

David

PhD Electrical Engineering and Mathematics

Wire quality is more important than the size. And with high quality wire, twisting has no effect on signal dispersion. That is all controlled by the actual signal and its harmonics. 

NCE grounding

Bob Macionis
 

I've gotten myself confused about proper grounding of the command station & boosters.  I have an NCE command station with a separate power source, a PB105 booster with a separate power source, and a PB5 booster that includes a power source inside the box.  The separate power source cords have a ground wire.  Are those wires grounded to the command station & 105 booster (attached to a screw on the bottom of the booster box?)  The PB5 power cord has no ground wire, so none is needed?  I understand the command station & boosters should be grounded together.  So that means a wire from the command station box to a booster box then to the other booster box?

Re: NCE grounding

Don Vollrath
 

Bob,
You can verify if the actual ground prong on the 120Vac power plug is connected to the PB5 booster case or not with a simple ohmmeter check. Does the NCE command station also have an internal booster with a DCC track output? If so the case of that unit needs to be bonded to the cases of the PB105 and PB5.

DonV

Re: NCE grounding

Bob Macionis
 

The command station has a 5 amp booster.  NCE says to run a ground between the command station and all boosters (connecting to a screw on the bottom of the box).  But what should I do with the ground wires coming from the 5 amp power sources needed for the 105 and command station?  This is not the 110volt plug wire.  From the power source there are 3 wires- two screw into the booster, plus there is a ground.  Does this ground need to be attached somewhere?  The pb5 with the built in power source has no ground wire, so I guess it just needs a wire connected to the 105 and command station.
 
 

From: Don Vollrath
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 12:29 PM
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] NCE grounding
 
Bob,
You can verify if the actual ground prong on the 120Vac power plug is connected to the PB5 booster case or not with a simple ohmmeter check. Does the NCE command station also have an internal booster with a DCC track output? If so the case of that unit needs to be bonded to the cases of the PB105 and PB5.

DonV

Re: NCE grounding

Steve Haas
 

>>>> The command station has a 5 amp booster.  NCE says to run a ground between the command station and all boosters (connecting to a screw on the bottom of the box). <<<<

 

Correct.

 

>>>> But what should I do with the ground wires coming from the 5 amp power sources needed for the 105 and command station?  This is not the 110volt plug wire.  From the power source there are 3 wires- two screw into the booster, plus there is a ground.  Does this ground need to be attached somewhere?  <<<<

 

No.  The third wire you ask about should _NOT_ be connected to any of the NCE boxes.  Doing so can cause a ground loop.

 

>>>> The pb5 with the built in power source has no ground wire, so I guess it just needs a wire connected to the 105 and command station. <<<<

 

Correct. The ground wire (Also referred to as a “bond wire” or “common” runs between the various NCE boosters. It typically comes into play when an engine moves over the gaps in the rails between booster boundaries.  In the case of engines (usually older, such as brass steam – there are others) where the pickup from the right rail is the drivers on the right side of the engine and the pickup from the other rail is via the tender wheels on the left side of the tender, the ground between these particular boosters is used to complete the circuit while the engine is straddling the gap.

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

Steve Haas

Snoqualmie, WA

 

Re: NCE grounding

vincent marino
 

Bottom of both has a ground screw connect them to each other. 


On Fri, Jul 20, 2018, 2:39 PM Bob Macionis <macionis@...> wrote:
The command station has a 5 amp booster.  NCE says to run a ground between the command station and all boosters (connecting to a screw on the bottom of the box).  But what should I do with the ground wires coming from the 5 amp power sources needed for the 105 and command station?  This is not the 110volt plug wire.  From the power source there are 3 wires- two screw into the booster, plus there is a ground.  Does this ground need to be attached somewhere?  The pb5 with the built in power source has no ground wire, so I guess it just needs a wire connected to the 105 and command station.
 
 
From: Don Vollrath
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 12:29 PM
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] NCE grounding
 
Bob,
You can verify if the actual ground prong on the 120Vac power plug is connected to the PB5 booster case or not with a simple ohmmeter check. Does the NCE command station also have an internal booster with a DCC track output? If so the case of that unit needs to be bonded to the cases of the PB105 and PB5.

DonV

Re: NCE grounding

Gary Chudzinski
 

Bob,

The whole issue of ground can be confusing.  If I recall correctly, and I would need to look to be sure, but I have two vintages of power transformers for my NCE command station and 5 Amp boosters.  The earlier version has an electrical ground wire and plug (3 wires); the newer version has only two power wires.  The third wire (usually green) is the wire you do * NOT * want to connect to any part of your NCE boxes.  I cut mine back to make it unusable.  Otherwise, common ground only your NCE boxes together.  It was simple for me to run a DCC common ground wire around my layout as I have three booster districts.  I don't think it makes any difference whether your command station and boosters are in the same box. Just ground your NCE boxes together; but * NOT * your transformer ground wire!  I think it was Mark Gurries that had a very good  commentary on this topic many months back.  I seem to recall his explanation of the difference between earth ground (the ground in our household wiring), often called common ground, and the common ground for your NCE system, as well as the risk/dangers of connecting the two together.  I hope I stated this correctly without any confusion.

Gary Chudzinski

Block detection question

rbryce2@...
 

I have a question.  I am trying to set up block detection.  I will be using NCE's DB20 detectors.  I want 3 detection zones, all will be powered by the same booster.

 

Can I isolate the positive rail and leave the common rail intact or do I need to break both rails.  .

 

-------------------------------------------------------------

+++++++++        ++++++++++++        +++++++++++ 

 

                        

Breaking just one rail would really be much easier for my setup.  Again, not creating booster districts, just detection districts, all powered from the same booster.

 

(I hope the crude drawing I tried to make comes out correctly)

Re: Block detection question

Don Vollrath
 

You only need to gap one rail. It makes sense to monitor the same side rail in each block. Be sure to gap both ends of the rail for each block. You can provide multiple rail feeders... AFTER the main feeder for the block passes through the BD20. 

DonV.

DCC Wiring question

Robert Bryce <rbryce2@...>
 

Question:  DCC wiring.  Can I bundle wires 1  2  3  and  4 into the same wire run as long as they are all twisted.