Date   
Re: DCC Track Design for review

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

Good Choices.

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] On Behalf Of capnchuck@...
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2014 6:03 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] DCC Track Design for review

 



I Went to the Amherst show in MA over the weekend
I spoke with Marty Naul "a sales Manager for Digitrax".
I ended up making my decision on going with Digitrax DCC control
I picked up two AR1 Automatic reversing controls, one for the reversing section and one for the turntable
I also bought a Zephyr Plus and UT4 aux throttle to get me started
I decided to go with the Team Digital SRC-16 and four MotoD controllers to operate my Tortoise switch machines
This will allow me access for turnout control thru the Loco Net and I can use the JMRI software to operate them as well as building a dispatch panel with momentary switches and LED monitors for each turnout

Chuck Stiles
NJ


Re: DCC Track Design for review

Brian Eiland
 

To tell the truth, I'm getting tired of this mess about signing in and security and finding certain web pages, and on and on and on,,,,etc  ....on Yahoo in particular !!

All I am doing is trying to participate in a forum discussion. How is that going to be a security risk? I'm over in Thailand at the moment visiting with my wife, ...and noe Yahoo tells me they don't recognize me at the moment, and they want me to fill out this long form and pick YET ANOTHER new password that I will have to try and remember along with a couple hundred other ones I have!. Its just not worth my time any longer....sorry, I can only remember just a certain number of passwords and variations on same.
Brian




On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 4:25 AM, Scott H. Haycock <shhaycock@...> wrote:
 

Brian,
You aren't looking in the Yahoo Group, but in a blog. Try this: http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/WiringForDCC/files 



Scott Haycock
Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantm
ent


 






I still don't see "files" on either of these pages??

Sorry, Perhaps I'm just computer 'challenged'
Brian









Re: DCC Track Design for review

Chuck Stiles
 

I Went to the Amherst show in MA over the weekend
I spoke with Marty Naul "a sales Manager for Digitrax".
I ended up making my decision on going with Digitrax DCC control
I picked up two AR1 Automatic reversing controls, one for the reversing section and one for the turntable
I also bought a Zephyr Plus and UT4 aux throttle to get me started
I decided to go with the Team Digital SRC-16 and four MotoD controllers to operate my Tortoise switch machines
This will allow me access for turnout control thru the Loco Net and I can use the JMRI software to operate them as well as building a dispatch panel with momentary switches and LED monitors for each turnout

Chuck Stiles
NJ

Re: BEST

dvollrath@...
 

Doc,

The only way to take an educational short cut is to ask a specific question with lots of details as to why you are asking it. That is about the only way those of us that answer have any clues to what your concerns really are and in what direction the answer should lean (low cost, easy to do, must work with product X, Scale, sole operator layout or multi-operator club, etc.). So... Ask away.

DonV  

BEST

colinseggie@...
 

Thanks Don, No I'm not a beginner, and yes Allans "gospel" is an inspiring wealth of knowledge. Have I read all of it --NO-- thats why I belong to this forum.
Was just looking for a short cut---- but I guess its back to the same old, same old! Read the B$6&%y Manual!   ~;>)
Doc Colin

Re: BEST

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

If you are truly a beginner, or just wanting some pointers, start reading at http://www.wiringfordcc.com/intro2dcc.htm. Skim through the parts you understand. Home in on the links to locate general topics of immediate interest. Once you are more familiar with DCC, use Allan’s index to locate more detailed information on those same or related topics.

Just be aware that there is always more than one method to solve a problem… and certainly more related opinions. And of course, more than one manufacturer ready to sell you his product line. Some solutions and products work better than others.

Allan’s site hopefully gives you the information you need to recognize the cause of occasional issues that happen with DCC and at least one method to avoid them.

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] On Behalf Of dvollrath@...
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 10:19 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] RE: BEST

Allan's best practices are already compiled on his website www.wiringfordcc.com. There are no absolute rules. There are simply lots of good ideas and methods of wiring a layout to make it more reliable and trouble free in the long run with plenty of explanations and as to why. Your trains will not necessarily or suddenly stop if you violate one or two of the recommended practices. But they can. And there is the root reason to have recommended practices.

There will always be plenty of anecdotal stories as evidence that you can get by with 'cheating' on any one of the recommended guidelines or methods. The simple reason is that there so many variables, and acceptable performance expectations by different folks, that one simple set of rigid rules will not cover every possible combination of problems or solutions. Nor will it necessarily please everyone because it "seems" to work OK without it. 

DonV

 

Re: BEST

dvollrath@...
 

Allan's best practices are already compiled on his website www.wiringfordcc.com. There are no absolute rules. There are simply lots of good ideas and methods of wiring a layout to make it more reliable and trouble free in the long run with plenty of explanations and as to why. Your trains will not necessarily or suddenly stop if you violate one or two of the recommended practices. But they can. And there is the root reason to have recommended practices.


There will always be plenty of anecdotal stories as evidence that you can get by with 'cheating' on any one of the recommended guidelines or methods. The simple reason is that there so many variables, and acceptable performance expectations by different folks, that one simple set of rigid rules will not cover every possible combination of problems or solutions. Nor will it necessarily please everyone because it "seems" to work OK without it. 


DonV

BEST

colinseggie@...
 

Hello Group,
Allan the Topic 'DCC Track Design for Review' is turning out to be a huge learning curve, covering almost all aspects of modern DCC wiring based on modelers experience.I'm not saying old is bad,but there are some very good summaries of 'Best Practices' as it were.
Hows about You (Its your group) choosing the best reply to various topics and asking that person to rewrite a succinct article about that topic and you then list it under BEST PRACTICES. You know who are regular contributers to your site and who gives good sound practical advice, time and again. At the end of the day we will end up with a 'Wiring for DCC set of Standards' Your web pages are a wealth of information , dont get me wrong, but I for one need a summary, then a referal to a greater indeapth review on that topic.
Good or Bad idea?? Who you choose is YOUR choice--NO debate--Articles and Topics are requested BY YOU. Only you can add them to the BEST PRACTICES file as it were.
Doc Colin

Re: DCC Track Design for review

Carl
 

Hello Chuck:

With the station tracks at the bottom you could divide your layout horizontally into two blocks, yard at the top and station at the bottom. Wire one to the automatic reversing control. You only need to be careful of running a train on the diagonal track at the same time as the outside loop. More blocks would be nice, but that is all you must have.

Carl.

Re: DCC Wiring - Can it cause a fire?

Steve Haas
 

 

<<I take it this problem is automatically taken care of if the track power is "frog-routed," I. e. the track leading from a turnout thrown against you is dead?  That seems to be our situation.,  If a train is pulled up too close to a turnout thrown against it, it just dies.>>

 

Hi Jerry,

 

Actually, if I am interpreting your note correctly, the situation you describe is the exact situation that caused the problem.

 

Let’s create an example for discussion purposes:

 

1)      Assume we have a right hand turnout, we’re looking at it from the points toward the frog.  The turnout is set for the straight route, and a train is approaching the turnout on the curved route.

2)      As we look at the turnout, The left rail is DCC1, the right rail is DCC2. Since the turnout is set for the straight route, the right rail, the frog, and both rails extending from the frog are all DCC2.

3)      In the situation I was describing, the gap in the rail emanating from the frog on the diverging (right) route was six inches down the spur.

4)      The train slowly approaching from the right arrived at that gap, spanned it, and created a short.  The wiring in this area is “suspect”, as it was wired long before we understood how to bullet proof our wiring for DCC. As a result, the circuit breaker didn’t trip (track and wiring _do_ _not_ pass the quarter test), and the wheel sat on the gap and creating an undetected short that slowly headed the wheel and axle.  Undiscovered for what ever reason, the engine sat on the gap for an extended period of time, heating and allowing the plastic gear/axle to soften and flow around the bearing, effectively freezing the mechanism once it cooled.

 

Keeping the gaps between the frog and the fouling point, prevents (in theory) or at least greatly reduces the possibility of this situation and the inevitable results from arising.

 

 

With rare exceptions, the real railroads would keep equipment clear of the fouling points, model railroaders should too, and that’s the rational for keeping the gaps inside the fouling points.

 

One picture would illustrate this easily, but unfortunately I have to result to text in an attempt to illustrate my point.  If anyone still has questions, feel free to inquire.

 

Best regards,

 

 

Steve Haas

Snoqualmie, WA

 

Re: DCC Track Design for review

Flash Gordon
 

Thanks guy, but I knew how to get the the Alphabetical list of file... the problem was the original post had the wrong name for the file

It should be "Final Layout for review"... after I got the correct name I found it.

thanks

Ed S

At 10:52 PM 1/22/2014, you wrote:


Railandsail, go to the WiringForDCC Yahoo group; on the left side,
click on FILES.

The first half of that section is folders and the second half is
individual files.

Scroll down until you come to "Layout for Review".



Paul O

Re: DCC Track Design for review

john
 

Guys,
   Unless you are in a hermitically sealed perfect environment with perfect temperature "watch soldering your rails and joiners" especially on curves. Curves can open or close rail gage with temperature change. Long lengths if straight (straightish) rail can separate from or damage switches and/or buckle track. Better more feeders than rail damage. My suggestion is to find "your" perfect soldering iron, use rosin core solder or a high quality fluid and solid solder, and use three colors of feeder wire. One color for north rail, one for south, and a different color for frogs/switch points for consistency. The perfect soldering iron is the one that you can make clean consistent joints on rail with. Big or small, high or low watts doesn't matter, use what works for you. Practice on your scraps. With practice it becomes easy and you won't mind, besides I find feeders easier to solder than joiners.
   Never use acid core flux or paste on tour layout. It will eventually cause your joint to fail. it will dissolve traces on pc boards, and it will travel by capillary action up along wires inside insulation and do hidden damage.
  
Ugh oh, sounds like preaching, hope it helps.
john

From: Annette and Dante Fuligni
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 9:24 AM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Re: DCC Track Design for review

George,

I am not surprised by your experience. My approximately 8’ x 12’ doughnut with a relatively dense amount of track and many turnouts works very well without the usually recommended “feeder to every rail” or “solder every joiner” practices. When I first tested it with DC, I used only one set of temporary feeders. When I did DCC (Digitrax Zephyr Extra 3 amp), I placed feeders where needed because of frog isolation gaps (I have a few older power-routing turnouts). Rail ends were treated with No-Ox before joining and the W/S joiners on W/S Code 83 track are very snug compared to those by Atlas. The voltage level is even throughout. All locations respond to the “quarter test”. Admittedly, the room is climate-controlled. If I ever have to, I can add feeders and/or solder joiners (in-place). Why do all that extra work in the beginning (unless later access will be difficult)?

Dante

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Re: DCC Track Design for review

Annette and Dante Fuligni
 

George,

I am not surprised by your experience. My approximately 8’ x 12’ doughnut with a relatively dense amount of track and many turnouts works very well without the usually recommended “feeder to every rail” or “solder every joiner” practices. When I first tested it with DC, I used only one set of temporary feeders. When I did DCC (Digitrax Zephyr Extra 3 amp), I placed feeders where needed because of frog isolation gaps (I have a few older power-routing turnouts). Rail ends were treated with No-Ox before joining and the W/S joiners on W/S Code 83 track are very snug compared to those by Atlas. The voltage level is even throughout. All locations respond to the “quarter test”. Admittedly, the room is climate-controlled. If I ever have to, I can add feeders and/or solder joiners (in-place). Why do all that extra work in the beginning (unless later access will be difficult)?

Dante

Re: DCC Track Design for review

Glenn
 

Both. Lucky and Experts Wrong

 

The buss has two purposes. One is to provide ample power to remote sections, two to ensure the signal reaches all areas.

 

Rail joints are the bane of both DCC and DC. Your joints must be tight otherwise you would lose power and signal. Evidently your track joints must be tight or soldered.

 

Under DC operation it was one loco per block. The typical single DC pack was ample.

 

With DCC there are many locos per block requiring more amperage than typical rail joints can carry. That’s where the buss and jumpers come into play. The buss is usually a heavy gauge and resupplies or supplies power to the tracks beyond the capability of the rail joiners.

 

You probably did not operate more than one to three locos at a time so the basic DCC system provided enough power and it satisfactorily reached all points. Even if there was a voltage drop it would not affect your operation. Typically we do not operate with 12 volts supplied to the motor. So long as track voltage remained higher than the operating voltage you did not notice the difference.

 

If you are satisfied with the operation of the old section leave it as is. Or maybe hooking up the jumper at the furthest track. But definitely run the new section from the buss or from a booster.

 

Glenn

 


On Behalf Of george hohon3

Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] DCC Track Design for review

 




Just a comment . . . And much to my surprise, a true story.

 

A couple years back, I started a new layout and made the decision it would DCC throughout.  It's relatively small, a HO double deck plan in 12' x 14' extra bedroom.  I studied all the files, went to DCC clinics at a number of conventions, and built the layout using the recommended wiring practices.

 

Upon completing the track work, which includes a twelve track fiddle yard, multiple DCC friendly  turnouts, cross-overs, and sidings, I was tickled pink that first train navigated every inch of track without so much as a hiccup.

 

Jump ahead a couple of years and I'm facing an expansion of the layout into an adjacent room.  A review of the wiring was needed and during that exercise I discovered I did not complete all the recommended wiring practices, as stated by "the experts" from a couple of years back.

 

My discovery?  Well, much to my surprise (even though the entire layout had a main power bus under every foot of length) . . . There was only ONE pair of track feeder wires powering the entire layout!  One and only one.  Two years of running multiple trains and never a power problem.

 

We're the experts wrong?  Or was I just lucky?  Or what?  I doubt a specific answer will ever present itself, and I'm sure there will be opinions galore.

 

As for me and the layout and the discovered omission . . . I say I'll let this sleeping dog rest where he is and do nothing to upset him.

 

My conclusion to all of this discussion is this . . . DCC is the simplest wiring required for any model railroad.  As long as you don't over think it.  Like they say, "KISS!"

 

George

 

Re: DCC Track Design for review

george hohon3
 

Nope.  They would all be guesses.  The layout works as "mistakenly" built.  No shorts, no hot wires, no problems of any kind with the DCC power system.

George


On Jan 24, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "railandsail" <railandsail@...> wrote:

 

Thanks for that submission George. Since you obviously did a lot of research before you built your layout, are there any other reasons you might have for your lace of problems with just the single pair of track feeder wires??.....perhaps the size of your main power (bus) wiring?...or other?
Brian

**********************************************************************


On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 6:21 PM, george hohon3 <hohon3@...> wrote:
 

Just a comment . . . And much to my surprise, a true story.

A couple years back, I started a new layout and made the decision it would DCC throughout.  It's relatively small, a HO double deck plan in 12' x 14' extra bedroom.  I studied all the files, went to DCC clinics at a number of conventions, and built the layout using the recommended wiring practices.

Upon completing the track work, which includes a twelve track fiddle yard, multiple DCC friendly  turnouts, cross-overs, and sidings, I was tickled pink that first train navigated every inch of track without so much as a hiccup.

Jump ahead a couple of years and I'm facing an expansion of the layout into an adjacent room.  A review of the wiring was needed and during that exercise I discovered I did not complete all the recommended wiring practices, as stated by "the experts" from a couple of years back.

My discovery?  Well, much to my surprise (even though the entire layout had a main power bus under every foot of length) . . . There was only ONE pair of track feeder wires powering the entire layout!  One and only one.  Two years of running multiple trains and never a power problem.

We're the experts wrong?  Or was I just lucky?  Or what?  I doubt a specific answer will ever present itself, and I'm sure there will be opinions galore.

As for me and the layout and the discovered omission . . . I say I'll let this sleeping dog rest where he is and do nothing to upset him.

My conclusion to all of this discussion is this . . . DCC is the simplest wiring required for any model railroad.  As long as you don't over think it.  Like they say, "KISS!"

George

Re: DCC Track Design for review

Brian Eiland
 




On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 9:29 PM, railandsail <railandsail@...> wrote:
Thanks for that submission George. Since you obviously did a lot of research before you built your layout, are there any other reasons you might have for your lace of problems with just the single pair of track feeder wires??.....perhaps the size of your main power (bus) wiring?...or other?
Brian

**********************************************************************

that was suppose to be 'lack of problems' 

Re: DCC Track Design for review

Brian Eiland
 

Thanks for that submission George. Since you obviously did a lot of research before you built your layout, are there any other reasons you might have for your lace of problems with just the single pair of track feeder wires??.....perhaps the size of your main power (bus) wiring?...or other?
Brian

**********************************************************************


On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 6:21 PM, george hohon3 <hohon3@...> wrote:
 

Just a comment . . . And much to my surprise, a true story.

A couple years back, I started a new layout and made the decision it would DCC throughout.  It's relatively small, a HO double deck plan in 12' x 14' extra bedroom.  I studied all the files, went to DCC clinics at a number of conventions, and built the layout using the recommended wiring practices.

Upon completing the track work, which includes a twelve track fiddle yard, multiple DCC friendly  turnouts, cross-overs, and sidings, I was tickled pink that first train navigated every inch of track without so much as a hiccup.

Jump ahead a couple of years and I'm facing an expansion of the layout into an adjacent room.  A review of the wiring was needed and during that exercise I discovered I did not complete all the recommended wiring practices, as stated by "the experts" from a couple of years back.

My discovery?  Well, much to my surprise (even though the entire layout had a main power bus under every foot of length) . . . There was only ONE pair of track feeder wires powering the entire layout!  One and only one.  Two years of running multiple trains and never a power problem.

We're the experts wrong?  Or was I just lucky?  Or what?  I doubt a specific answer will ever present itself, and I'm sure there will be opinions galore.

As for me and the layout and the discovered omission . . . I say I'll let this sleeping dog rest where he is and do nothing to upset him.

My conclusion to all of this discussion is this . . . DCC is the simplest wiring required for any model railroad.  As long as you don't over think it.  Like they say, "KISS!"

George

Re: DCC Track Design for review

Bernie Halloran
 

George, 
To answer your question, stick your head out your window tonight and look up.  That pulsating dinner plate looking thing hovering over your house is providing power to your layout, not those two wires.

When it returns to deep space, you'll be in deep trouble.

Bernie Halloran
NYK&W

On Jan 24, 2014, at 18:21, "george hohon3" <hohon3@...> wrote:

 

Just a comment . . . And much to my surprise, a true story.

A couple years back, I started a new layout and made the decision it would DCC throughout.  It's relatively small, a HO double deck plan in 12' x 14' extra bedroom.  I studied all the files, went to DCC clinics at a number of conventions, and built the layout using the recommended wiring practices.

Upon completing the track work, which includes a twelve track fiddle yard, multiple DCC friendly  turnouts, cross-overs, and sidings, I was tickled pink that first train navigated every inch of track without so much as a hiccup.

Jump ahead a couple of years and I'm facing an expansion of the layout into an adjacent room.  A review of the wiring was needed and during that exercise I discovered I did not complete all the recommended wiring practices, as stated by "the experts" from a couple of years back.

My discovery?  Well, much to my surprise (even though the entire layout had a main power bus under every foot of length) . . . There was only ONE pair of track feeder wires powering the entire layout!  One and only one.  Two years of running multiple trains and never a power problem.

We're the experts wrong?  Or was I just lucky?  Or what?  I doubt a specific answer will ever present itself, and I'm sure there will be opinions galore.

As for me and the layout and the discovered omission . . . I say I'll let this sleeping dog rest where he is and do nothing to upset him.

My conclusion to all of this discussion is this . . . DCC is the simplest wiring required for any model railroad.  As long as you don't over think it.  Like they say, "KISS!"

George


On Jan 24, 2014, at 12:19 PM, "Ed S" <eschwerkolt@...> wrote:

 

Chuck,

That link did not work for me but I did find the pdf in the file
section once I got the correct name.

Final Layout for review.PDF

Looks good to me, very similar to a layout I am building.

Ed S

At 01:37 PM 1/24/2014, you wrote:
>http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v2/ZLHiUrd_AnK-SGcVw26XSTp8uzhY3crYJFdvdgJt5tYG8oyU0YEPI8TahnklowCrnmbZZz24yD9a96glc37ABzT1iHYpFITa3qZbUr7TD3vt6r0CoEHfXQryCy8P2G1vaz93lsI7MdEK/Final%20Layout%20for%20review.pdf

Re: DCC Track Design for review

george hohon3
 

Just a comment . . . And much to my surprise, a true story.

A couple years back, I started a new layout and made the decision it would DCC throughout.  It's relatively small, a HO double deck plan in 12' x 14' extra bedroom.  I studied all the files, went to DCC clinics at a number of conventions, and built the layout using the recommended wiring practices.

Upon completing the track work, which includes a twelve track fiddle yard, multiple DCC friendly  turnouts, cross-overs, and sidings, I was tickled pink that first train navigated every inch of track without so much as a hiccup.

Jump ahead a couple of years and I'm facing an expansion of the layout into an adjacent room.  A review of the wiring was needed and during that exercise I discovered I did not complete all the recommended wiring practices, as stated by "the experts" from a couple of years back.

My discovery?  Well, much to my surprise (even though the entire layout had a main power bus under every foot of length) . . . There was only ONE pair of track feeder wires powering the entire layout!  One and only one.  Two years of running multiple trains and never a power problem.

We're the experts wrong?  Or was I just lucky?  Or what?  I doubt a specific answer will ever present itself, and I'm sure there will be opinions galore.

As for me and the layout and the discovered omission . . . I say I'll let this sleeping dog rest where he is and do nothing to upset him.

My conclusion to all of this discussion is this . . . DCC is the simplest wiring required for any model railroad.  As long as you don't over think it.  Like they say, "KISS!"

George


On Jan 24, 2014, at 12:19 PM, "Ed S" <eschwerkolt@...> wrote:

 

Chuck,

That link did not work for me but I did find the pdf in the file
section once I got the correct name.

Final Layout for review.PDF

Looks good to me, very similar to a layout I am building.

Ed S

At 01:37 PM 1/24/2014, you wrote:
>http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v2/ZLHiUrd_AnK-SGcVw26XSTp8uzhY3crYJFdvdgJt5tYG8oyU0YEPI8TahnklowCrnmbZZz24yD9a96glc37ABzT1iHYpFITa3qZbUr7TD3vt6r0CoEHfXQryCy8P2G1vaz93lsI7MdEK/Final%20Layout%20for%20review.pdf

Re: DCC Track Design for review

Flash Gordon
 

Chuck,

That link did not work for me but I did find the pdf in the file section once I got the correct name.

Final Layout for review.PDF

Looks good to me, very similar to a layout I am building.

Ed S