Date   
Re: Hot Snubber

redking56@...
 

I love this forum, but sometimes you guys can be a tough crowd.
I thought that my explanation was pretty clear, one booster, no separate power districts or circuit breakers, bus wires form a continuous loop.  But, I will try harder in the future to be as clear as possible.
Rich



---In WiringForDCC@..., <len.jask@...> wrote :

This is where actual wiring diagrams are a plus as opposed to verbal explanations. With the verbal, we can only visualize and the error in interpretation amplify. So yahoo doesn't allow attachments.

My suggestion is to respond to the sender/senders where an attachment is possible. This would lead to a possible solution.

Otherwise everyone is only speculating that only leads to bringing the problem further out of the ballpark and away from a solution.

Ranting again!

Len Jaskiewicz

Re: Hot Snubber

jazzmanlj
 

This is where actual wiring diagrams are a plus as opposed to verbal explanations. With the verbal, we can only visualize and the error in interpretation amplify. So yahoo doesn't allow attachments.

My suggestion is to respond to the sender/senders where an attachment is possible. This would lead to a possible solution.

Otherwise everyone is only speculating that only leads to bringing the problem further out of the ballpark and away from a solution.

Ranting again!

Len Jaskiewicz

Re: Hot Snubber

georgebriscoe10
 

If the bus wire forms a continuos loop where did you connect the snubber????????

Re: Hot Snubber

Flash Gordon
 

Ahhhhh  I was wrong.....


Skip, 

The bus wire should not form a continuous loop. At the furthest point cut the bus so you have two separate bus. Also gap the track at that point and add feeders to the track.

Ed S



At 07:04 PM 3/14/2014, you wrote:
 

Let me try this again.
My layout is powered by a single 5 amp booster. 
There are no separate power districts or circuit breakers.
My bus wires form a continuous loop.
Rich


---In WiringForDCC@..., wrote :

Skip,

I believe the "bus wires form a continuous loop" was in the same sentence as "No".   I had to read it a few times to get the idea.


Ed S


At 06:26 PM 3/14/2014, you wrote:
 

Rich,
Checking and comparing voltage drops may lead to something. Don't like the continuous loop thing. You don't really mean that, I hope.  Bus should not loop.

Skip Barber


On Mar 14, 2014, at 18:22, <redking56@...> wrote:

My setup consists of a single 5 amp booster, no separate power districts or circuit breakers, bus wires form a continuous loop.  I have not measured voltage drops.

Rich

Re: Hot Snubber

William Teeters <cozyflyr9398@...>
 

Buss wires should not form a continuous loop. Bill Teeters


From: "redking56@..."
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 6:04 PM
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Re: Hot Snubber

 
Let me try this again.
My layout is powered by a single 5 amp booster.  
There are no separate power districts or circuit breakers.
My bus wires form a continuous loop.
Rich


---In WiringForDCC@..., wrote :

Skip,

I believe the "bus wires form a continuous loop" was in the same sentence as "No".   I had to read it a few times to get the idea.


Ed S


At 06:26 PM 3/14/2014, you wrote:
 

Rich,
Checking and comparing voltage drops may lead to something. Don't like the continuous loop thing. You don't really mean that, I hope.  Bus should not loop.

Skip Barber


On Mar 14, 2014, at 18:22, <redking56@...> wrote:

My setup consists of a single 5 amp booster, no separate power districts or circuit breakers, bus wires form a continuous loop.  I have not measured voltage drops.

Rich


Re: Hot Snubber

Skip Barber
 

Ed,
You may be right, I still don't read it that way. Just making sure. 

Skip Barber


On Mar 14, 2014, at 18:57, Ed S <eschwerkolt@...> wrote:

Skip,

I believe the "bus wires form a continuous loop" was in the same sentence as "No".   I had to read it a few times to get the idea.


Ed S


At 06:26 PM 3/14/2014, you wrote:
 

Rich,
Checking and comparing voltage drops may lead to something. Don't like the continuous loop thing. You don't really mean that, I hope.  Bus should not loop.

Skip Barber


On Mar 14, 2014, at 18:22, <redking56@...> wrote:

My setup consists of a single 5 amp booster, no separate power districts or circuit breakers, bus wires form a continuous loop.  I have not measured voltage drops.

Rich

Re: Hot Snubber

Skip Barber
 

Len,
I totally agree that a scope would be best, but most people done have one (I actually have two). But, reading the voltage drops may lead to something. 

Skip Barber


On Mar 14, 2014, at 18:37, <len.jask@...> wrote:

An Oscope is needed to see what's going on. Voltage spikes are probably far greater than normal and cannot be measured by any other means.

Len Jaskiewicz

Re: Hot Snubber

redking56@...
 

Let me try this again.
My layout is powered by a single 5 amp booster.  
There are no separate power districts or circuit breakers.
My bus wires form a continuous loop.
Rich


---In WiringForDCC@..., <eschwerkolt@...> wrote :

Skip,

I believe the "bus wires form a continuous loop" was in the same sentence as "No".   I had to read it a few times to get the idea.


Ed S


At 06:26 PM 3/14/2014, you wrote:
 

Rich,
Checking and comparing voltage drops may lead to something. Don't like the continuous loop thing. You don't really mean that, I hope.  Bus should not loop.

Skip Barber


On Mar 14, 2014, at 18:22, <redking56@...> wrote:

My setup consists of a single 5 amp booster, no separate power districts or circuit breakers, bus wires form a continuous loop.  I have not measured voltage drops.

Rich

Re: Hot Snubber

Flash Gordon
 

Skip,

I believe the "bus wires form a continuous loop" was in the same sentence as "No".   I had to read it a few times to get the idea.


Ed S


At 06:26 PM 3/14/2014, you wrote:
 

Rich,
Checking and comparing voltage drops may lead to something. Don't like the continuous loop thing. You don't really mean that, I hope.  Bus should not loop.

Skip Barber


On Mar 14, 2014, at 18:22, <redking56@...> wrote:

My setup consists of a single 5 amp booster, no separate power districts or circuit breakers, bus wires form a continuous loop.  I have not measured voltage drops.

Rich

Re: Hot Snubber

jazzmanlj
 

An Oscope is needed to see what's going on. Voltage spikes are probably far greater than normal and cannot be measured by any other means.

Len Jaskiewicz

Re: Hot Snubber

Skip Barber
 

Rich,
Checking and comparing voltage drops may lead to something. Don't like the continuous loop thing. You don't really mean that, I hope.  Bus should not loop. 

Skip Barber


On Mar 14, 2014, at 18:22, <redking56@...> wrote:

My setup consists of a single 5 amp booster, no separate power districts or circuit breakers, bus wires form a continuous loop.  I have not measured voltage drops.

Rich


---In WiringForDCC@..., wrote :

I would like to see that "something" that causes increased current in effectively a parallel circuit.

An answer I have not seen..  Is there more than one booster, and if so, are the warmer resistors on the same booster?  

Is the voltage drop across each of the snubbers the same?  That is where I would start.  

Skip Barber


On Mar 14, 2014, at 17:42, <redking56@...> wrote:

Yes, that is what I am inclined to do.
Rich


---In WiringForDCC@..., wrote :

Rich,

Sounds like something in that district is drawing current from 1 rail throught the resister to the other rail.  I would lift connections until I found which device is drawing the current.  

bob



Re: Hot Snubber

redking56@...
 

My setup consists of a single 5 amp booster, no separate power districts or circuit breakers, bus wires form a continuous loop.  I have not measured voltage drops.

Rich


---In WiringForDCC@..., <skip_8933@...> wrote :

I would like to see that "something" that causes increased current in effectively a parallel circuit.

An answer I have not seen..  Is there more than one booster, and if so, are the warmer resistors on the same booster?  

Is the voltage drop across each of the snubbers the same?  That is where I would start.  

Skip Barber


On Mar 14, 2014, at 17:42, <redking56@...> wrote:

Yes, that is what I am inclined to do.
Rich


---In WiringForDCC@..., <rehandjr@...> wrote :

Rich,

Sounds like something in that district is drawing current from 1 rail throught the resister to the other rail.  I would lift connections until I found which device is drawing the current.  

bob



Re: Hot Snubber

Skip Barber
 

I would like to see that "something" that causes increased current in effectively a parallel circuit.

An answer I have not seen..  Is there more than one booster, and if so, are the warmer resistors on the same booster?  

Is the voltage drop across each of the snubbers the same?  That is where I would start.  

Skip Barber


On Mar 14, 2014, at 17:42, <redking56@...> wrote:

Yes, that is what I am inclined to do.
Rich


---In WiringForDCC@..., wrote :

Rich,

Sounds like something in that district is drawing current from 1 rail throught the resister to the other rail.  I would lift connections until I found which device is drawing the current.  

bob



Re: loading a booster for performance and thermal testing

jazzmanlj
 

,

Phil,

Wrong approach!

You probably missed my response to Ed as to why?

 

Like any piece of electronics being built testing has to start at a basic level to verify functions of the stages and progress to the final test. The command station signals are too complex for initial testing to verify good switching of the power H-bridge.

 

Len Jaskiewicz

 



 

OT: Re: loading a booster for performance and thermal testing

Mark Gurries
 

I kind of consider this getting off topic because it going beyond the scope of what this DCC list is all about. It was never intended to be any engineering oriented group in the sense we are testing and debugging anything. The primary goal it to help people fix DCC electrical problems and get back to running trains.

Len, which appears to be a smart young electrical engineer, is clearly fascinated by DCC technology and wants to learn how things work first hand. (Hey DCC is really Cool Stuff.) That is how all engineers learn by getting your hands dirty so to speak and getting the benefit of learning going much faster especially when you studying something your very interested in. Take things apart, test them and figure out how the stuff work and the tricks and nuances of how circuits work. That is what I did and still do today

With the OT stamp in the subject line, I will now respond to the questions below

On Mar 13, 2014, at 4:16 AM, Phil Euper wrote:
Agree Ed.......Len, why not look at the output of the command station then
put this output thru
the booster you built and look at it's output and compare the two outputs.
If they
are same or close to the same you should have a successful build!

-----Original Message-----
From: Ed S

Len

I do not understand why you would test it with out sending DCC
packets. Isn't that the point?
As much as people would like to think of a DCC Booster as a digital device, it is not. It is old fashion analog device processing DCC signals and power. The real world.

Len is not looking to see if the packet gets through. That is not the problem nor the concern. It is DCC waveform fidelity. He is looking at the signal rise and fall time, amplitudes, ringing and other analog properties of the power electronics under various operating situations which has nothing to do with sending DCC packets. The DCC standards do actually have analog specifications for the DCC waveform.

This is not unlike verifying an audio amplifier using test tones as opposed to music (DCC packets). The former makes it easy to look at the signal in a steady state operating condition and capture the data on a scope or other test equipment. The idea is to minimize the number of variables you have to deal with or fight when making any measurement.

The nickname "booster" is a term that attempts to describe with a single word what it is doing. It "boost" the digital DCC signal. It is a simplification that works well for the layman to understand its function but it also comes with the incorrect implication this is a digital device. The NRMA DCC standards term for what we call a booster is "Power Station". I rather go with booster myself despite the false implications that comes with it.

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com

Re: Hot Snubber

Flash Gordon
 

Kurt,

You have hit the electron on the nucleus. I just hope you did not release too much energy.

And it would be DCC-Grematrons to be absolutely accurate.

Ed S
Sent from my Commodore 64

At 07:05 PM 3/11/2014, you wrote:


It's not the positrons, negatrons or electrons you have to deal with. It's those pesky Grematrons that run amuck in the circuits that cause such problems

Kurt k

Sent from my iPhone

Re: Hot Snubber

jazzmanlj
 

Ed,

Let me interject and try to shed light here and please bear with me! But first let me state that changing parts randomly solves nothing and generally creates more confusion.

A 'snubber' is a network meant for transient supression, hence the term, snub the spike. The simplest is the series RC. The C is an energy storage device where E = 1/2* C*dv/dt where dv/dt is change in voltage over time. When the network sees voltage spikes the cap stores the energy and the resistor dissipates the energy.

The higher the voltage and ringing, the more energy and heat.

Google search snubber waveforms. Lots of good pictures for all to get an understanding!

The generic combo of 0.1uF and 100 ohm is probably good enough in most applications. For this case of hot snubber there is some underlying reason for voltage spiking to be greater than normal. That was my thought from the very first post. Without a good Oscope the problem is difficult.

Len Jaskiewicz




 

Re: Hot Snubber

redking56@...
 

Yes, that is what I am inclined to do.
Rich


---In WiringForDCC@..., <rehandjr@...> wrote :

Rich,

Sounds like something in that district is drawing current from 1 rail throught the resister to the other rail.  I would lift connections until I found which device is drawing the current.  

bob



Re: Peco Electrofrog - A dding Gaps

redking56@...
 

Yes, that reply certainly did fully answer my initial question, and I appreciate it.
Rich


---In WiringForDCC@..., <rehandjr@...> wrote :

Dante,

I think you are the first who answered the question that was asked. I think this is exactly the information that Rich wanted.

Thanks. bob


---- Original Message ----
From: "Annette and Dante Fuligni" <dfuligni2144@...>
Sent: 3/10/2014 11:51:55 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Re: Peco Electrofrog - Adding Gaps

Rich,

I have some Walthers/Shinohara older, non-DCC friendly turnouts that are power-routing. Typically, I do in effect gap the rails from the frog by using insulating joiners. However, there are a couple of locations where these turnouts feed and power stub yard tracks. The layout is small, and I don’t anticipate running two locos simultaneously on the stub yard tracks in question; therefore, I only need to power one of these adjacent tracks at a time. Therefore, I don’t have to gap the rails from those frogs. I believe the same reasoning would apply to the use of PECO Electrofrogs (to reply to your basic question). :-)

Dante

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Re: Snubgber or Terminator or what? Actually R/C Filter

Flash Gordon
 

Hi Doug,

You meant Jerry not Ed.

We have settled  the name it is R/C Filter. I believe Jerry has solved his problem with his R/C filters.

Thanks

Ed S



At 03:54 AM 3/10/2014, you wrote:
 

Ed:

Sorry for the confusion.  Things get confusing when people use the wrong term or call an item something it is not.  There are several types of terminators.  What you are interested in is a R/C filter made up of a 100 ohm resistor and a 0.1 uF cap.  The cap should have a rating of at least 50WVDC.  That is 50 working volts dc.  The W stands for working, not Watts.  Hope this helps.

Doug K



At 01:31 PM 3/9/2014, you wrote:
 

Guys, this is getting confusing.  Reading the wiringfordcc documents, it sure seem to me that what is described there as a terminator reads the to me as what others are calling a snubber.  All I really want to know is if regardless of the terms being tossed around, all of these are simply a capacitor and resistor soldered together, preferably a 100 ohm, 1/2 watt resistor and a 50 watt 0.1 mfd capacitor?
 
Jerry
_