Date   
Re: To Flux or Not to Flux

john
 

   If you are soldering anything to anything you need some kind of flux. Flux doesn't replace cleaning, it keeps the work from oxidizing from the heat and air. If you are doing Copper plumbing use acid (Tin killed acid flux). If you are sitting at a bench and doing light soldering on boards and wire, use rosin core solder. If you are soldering pick ups on rail (clean it well), the steel frame of engines, galvanized metal (like Lionel track) use either Ruby or Blue fluid. I like Ruby fluid for general purpose but if you do a lot of electronics use the Blue. Wiring for DCC gives a nice lesson on soldering and flux. Do not ever use Acid flux on your layout, you can never get it all off, and it will eventually ruin your work.
   It is suggested by experts, not me, I have just done the work for 40 years, that one use solid (Not rosin core) solder when using flux but I don't bother. If you solder steel, like Athearn pickups, I use ruby fluid to tin the steel and use rosin core which keeps the metal clean until I solder on the wire.
   I know that Ruby fluid is available at DO It Best Hardware. Order the pints which are much cheaper than the 4 Oz bottles. I am not sure if they carry Blue fluid, like I said, I just use the Ruby.
john



From: "len.jask@..."
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 6:03 PM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Re: To Flux or Not to Flux



In industry a solder joint without flux is a 'bad' solder joint! Metallized surface oxidize and even with a freshly cleaned surfact the heating will create oxide. Try soldering copper fresh cleaned copper pipe without flux! The flux spreads the heat quicker and prevents oxide from the heating.
Perhaps it is acid flux that people have objections to. Bad for plumbing and disasterous for electronics! Flux is considered environmentally safe. Industry can use cleaners and wash it down the drain,
 
Len Jaskiewicz





Re: To Flux or Not to Flux

jazzmanlj
 

Ed,

Acid flux for electrical is a NO NO! Even cleaned it can still be corrosive!  Please do not recommend it. It is used for galvanized metals/tin knockers. It does impede a good solder joint. Even a plumbing joint gets messed up.

RMA(rosin flux) is readily available and now even in convenient pens for dispensing. Water clean flux is also on the market.

 

Len Jaskiewicz


>I use acid flux and solid solder for rail and rosin core flux for
wire. Both solders are very thin. Clean with alcohol and tooth brush.

I do not know how you could do it without flux. I guess I have never tried.

But the most important thing is that the parts to be soldered are
clean and mechanically connected. I use a brass brush on my Dremel
for the rail.

People that do not allow things like this in their house probably
still cook with Teflon coated pans which are even more dangerous to
your health.

Ed S

Re: To Flux or Not to Flux

jazzmanlj
 

In industry a solder joint without flux is a 'bad' solder joint! Metallized surface oxidize and even with a freshly cleaned surfact the heating will create oxide. Try soldering copper fresh cleaned copper pipe without flux! The flux spreads the heat quicker and prevents oxide from the heating.

Perhaps it is acid flux that people have objections to. Bad for plumbing and disasterous for electronics! Flux is considered environmentally safe. Industry can use cleaners and wash it down the drain,

 

Len Jaskiewicz

Re: To Flux or Not to Flux

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

Our model RRs do not need to be surgically clean like NASA, nor they guarded against everything by the EPA or OSHA or the NTSB. Dirt, oxidation and other surface contamination abounds in our environment making good soldering joints difficult. Attempting to solder without flux of some kind makes it almost impossible. Several non-corrosive fluxes are out there. Even rosin flux works well as we don’t need to be too concerned about moisture absorption causing stray resistance leakage. Scrape off the paint and/or brush off surface contamination. Apply the wires (or copper/brass if you are into construction). Add a drop of liquid flux. Add heat, then add solder and the job is done. For PC board work, nothing works nearly as good as rosin core 60/40 tin/lead solder. Simply don’t inhale the vapors and wash your hands afterword.

 

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] On Behalf Of Robert Morrison
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 6:53 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] To Flux or Not to Flux

 



I know some people who will not allow flux in their houses and others who would solder nothing without flux.

I have read tutorials about soldering and the use of flux is either encouraged or not.

 

I have used Tix Flux for years with no apparent problems, on track and electronic items, like decoders.

 

So I am turning to this group for some reasoned arguments for or against the use of flux.

What has experience taught you and what has your own research taught?

 

Rob Morrison




Re: To Flux or Not to Flux

Flash Gordon
 

I use acid flux and solid solder for rail and rosin core flux for wire. Both solders are very thin. Clean with alcohol and tooth brush.

I do not know how you could do it without flux. I guess I have never tried.

But the most important thing is that the parts to be soldered are clean and mechanically connected. I use a brass brush on my Dremel for the rail.

People that do not allow things like this in their house probably still cook with Teflon coated pans which are even more dangerous to your health.

Ed S

At 05:19 PM 3/21/2014, you wrote:


On 2014-03-17, 7:53 PM, Robert Morrison wrote:


I know some people who will not allow flux in their houses and others who would solder nothing without flux.
I have read tutorials about soldering and the use of flux is either encouraged or not.

I have used Tix Flux for years with no apparent problems, on track and electronic items, like decoders.

So I am turning to this group for some reasoned arguments for or against the use of flux.
What has experience taught you and what has your own research taught?

Re: To Flux or Not to Flux

Michael Rozeboom
 

On 2014-03-17, 7:53 PM, Robert Morrison wrote:
 

I know some people who will not allow flux in their houses and others who would solder nothing without flux.

I have read tutorials about soldering and the use of flux is either encouraged or not.

I have used Tix Flux for years with no apparent problems, on track and electronic items, like decoders.

So I am turning to this group for some reasoned arguments for or against the use of flux.
What has experience taught you and what has your own research taught?

Flux just makes the job go better.  The rosin core solders work, but the flux can dry out, or you just don't have enough flux for the job.

A little flux just makes it work better, and it won't hurt either.


--
Michael Rozeboom

From the MBPro

Member, Team AMIGA


To Flux or Not to Flux

Robert Morrison <Robmorrison@...>
 

I know some people who will not allow flux in their houses and others who would solder nothing without flux.
I have read tutorials about soldering and the use of flux is either encouraged or not.

I have used Tix Flux for years with no apparent problems, on track and electronic items, like decoders.

So I am turning to this group for some reasoned arguments for or against the use of flux.
What has experience taught you and what has your own research taught?

Rob Morrison

To Flux or Not to Flux

Robmorrison@...
 

This is a topic that in my experience has generated a most vehement opinion from a few people.  I have met and talked to people who won't allow flux in their houses and others who won't solder anything without first applying flux. I hope this group won't get too excited by the topic.

I have used Tix Flux or Superior Flux (from H&N Electronics) on all my model railroading soldering and see no reason not to continue using it and other non-corrosive fluxes.  

Can anyone give a clear and rational reason to use or not use flux?

Thanks for any advice you can offer.
Rob Morrison

Re: Loops and Extended Buses

Steve Haas
 

<<What is interesting is that a 180 foot, untwisted bus and looped back on itself functioned without shutting down the command station/booster.>>

 

A loop, in and of itself, regardless of its construction, whether extremely short or approaching infinity in circumference won’t ever shut down a command station/booster.

 

Boosters (regardless of brand) output a voltage within the range specified by the NMRA spec, and superimpose a digital signal (again defined by the NMRA spec) on that voltage.  That’s probably not quite a perfect technical definition, but it will work for this discussion (Any true techie is welcome to jump in here and clarify!).

 

We recommend against loops in track and bus wiring because they allow the digital signal to travel around the loop like race cars at a Saturday afternoon NASCAR event. Every time the signal loops, it arrives at a given point a little bit later than it did the last revolution – this can eventually lead to degradation of the quality of the digital signal (again greatly simplified – techies can jump in here, too!).  Signal degradation eventually results in the decoder not being able to correctly decode the commands on the signal – resulting in all kinds of interesting decoder behavior.

 

DCC was originally designed to work on the typical “4 x 8” layout.  At that extremely low level of complexity, the layout owner simply can connect two wires to the track and run trains.

 

As a layout increases in size and complexity, the “gremlins” start to show up.  Because every layout is unique, we can’t tell when those problems will arise.  Because of that, when we provide recommendations on this (and other) lists, we only recommend “best practices” – do this and you’re very unlikely to have problems. 

 

Also, because every layout is unique, some folks have completely ignored best practices yet have no problems.   We just don’t know when they will show up, so we always take the high road.

 

 

<<Or am I preprogrammed because I use Digitrax exclusively, along with the odd PSX from DCC Specialties.>>

 

Nope, we’re talking about the electrical and electronic characteristics of the track bus and track; manufacturer independent since the NMRA defines the characteristics of the bus and the signals carried on it.

 

<<Somewhere along the line someone mentioned that NCE systems can be used that way, ie with a looped bus.>>

 

Not any more or any less than any other DCC system – see previous comments above.

 

<<If one used the 30 foot rule in either direction  (60 feet), then in a 180 foot continuous loop track , two boosters and a  command station should be used correct?>>

 

There’s no 30 foot rule.  There are recommendations for size of wire for track buses based on length of run (NCE simply says use AWG 12 for runs longer than fifty feet), and suggestions to feed buses from the middle to cut the effective length of a bus in half.

 

<<I have read you can go 30' in any direction, even say a star 5 arms each 30' or less.

So what then is limiting the bus to only 30' in a single direction regardless of whether its power is rated 8 or 5 or 3 amps?>>

 

Most folks recommend a daisy chained track bus, but star configurations have been used successfully.  And again, there is no thirty foot limitation on bus length.

 

Best regards,

 

 

Steve Haas

Snoqualmie, WA

 

Re: Loops and Extended Buses

colinseggie@...
 

Thanks Ed,
 Finally did what you said earlier and googled snubber and R/C filters, and it all fits!!! Because I have been using diodes  across relay coils for years to absord the sharp rise in voltage when the contacts meet/part.( mainly to prevent welding). Ok got the principle-- a happy R/C filter in the right place, where its needed, would be warm and snug in its bed , I mean Bus!  ~;> )  Thats where I'm agoin! Night all.
 Doc Colin

Re: Hot Snubber

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

SBT. One joule = 9.478x10^-4 Btu.

DonV

On Mar 15, 2014, at 9:45 PM, "Vollrath, Don" <dvollrath@...> wrote:

Max is right folks. One jule is only 0.947x10^-4 Btu. So it would tabs 1056 Jules to equal one Btu. Sorry about that.

DonV
Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 15, 2014, at 12:18 PM, " Max Maginness" <m.maginness@...<mailto:m.maginness@...>> wrote:



Err… I think you have your Joules and BTU’s tangled here……

Max

From: WiringForDCC@...<mailto:WiringForDCC@...> [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] On Behalf Of dvollrath@...<mailto:dvollrath@...>
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 9:09 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...<mailto:WiringForDCC@...>
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Re: Hot Snubber



The definition of 'hot' is subjective. If you pinch a resistor between your fingers for 4 or 5 seconds and it is dissipating even 1/4 watt it will feel 'hot'. 1/4 watt for 4 seconds (1 watt-second = 1 Joule) and is enough heat energy to raise the temperature of one pound of water one degree F. Compare the mass of your fingers with a pound of water and you can guess how long it will take to raise the temperature of your finger to a sensitive or even uncomfortable level. If the capacitor is shorted, the resistor will see full track voltage across it. 14V x 14V / 100 ohms = nearly 2 watts.



If you have substituted a different R & C network in that same location and it does not get 'hot', the original capacitor is either the wrong value or faulty. Please throw it out and let's get off this subject.



DonV
________________________________

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Re: Hot Snubber

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

Max is right folks. One jule is only 0.947x10^-4 Btu. So it would tabs 1056 Jules to equal one Btu. Sorry about that.

DonV

On Mar 15, 2014, at 12:18 PM, " Max Maginness" <m.maginness@...<mailto:m.maginness@...>> wrote:



Err… I think you have your Joules and BTU’s tangled here……

Max

From: WiringForDCC@...<mailto:WiringForDCC@...> [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] On Behalf Of dvollrath@...<mailto:dvollrath@...>
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 9:09 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...<mailto:WiringForDCC@...>
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Re: Hot Snubber



The definition of 'hot' is subjective. If you pinch a resistor between your fingers for 4 or 5 seconds and it is dissipating even 1/4 watt it will feel 'hot'. 1/4 watt for 4 seconds (1 watt-second = 1 Joule) and is enough heat energy to raise the temperature of one pound of water one degree F. Compare the mass of your fingers with a pound of water and you can guess how long it will take to raise the temperature of your finger to a sensitive or even uncomfortable level. If the capacitor is shorted, the resistor will see full track voltage across it. 14V x 14V / 100 ohms = nearly 2 watts.



If you have substituted a different R & C network in that same location and it does not get 'hot', the original capacitor is either the wrong value or faulty. Please throw it out and let's get off this subject.



DonV
________________________________

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com>
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Re: Loops and Extended Buses

Flash Gordon
 

Doc,

You are not limited to 30 feet or less.  But beyound 30 feet you should twist the bus wires and add a R/C filter (snubber) to the end of the long bus.

Why....  induction in the longer wire will cause spikes and may fry a decoder.

This has nothing to do with amps.

Ed S




At 03:13 PM 3/15/2014, you wrote:
 
I have read you can go 30' in any direction, even say a star 5 arms each 30' or less.
So what then is limiting the bus to only 30' in a single direction regardless of whether its power is rated 8 or 5 or 3 amps?

Re: Loops and Extended Buses

jazzmanlj
 

"
What is interesting is that a 180 foot, untwisted bus and looped back on itself functioned without shutting down the command station/booster. Or am I preprogrammed because I use Digitrax exclusively, along with the odd PSX from DCC Specialties.
Somewhere along the line someone mentioned that NCE systems can be used that way, ie with a looped bus.
If one used the 30 foot rule in either direction (60 feet), then in a 180 foot continuous loop track , two boosters and a command station should be used correct?
I have read you can go 30' in any direction, even say a star 5 arms each 30' or less.
So what then is limiting the bus to only 30' in a single direction regardless of whether its power is rated 8 or 5 or 3 amps?"
Doc,
Every layout, like any electronic device is is unique as to how it isdesigned and  laid out.
 Recommendations are guidelines to avoid pitfalls. Nothing is written in stone. The complexities can be overwhelming, even for the technical person, myself included!
If we stick to the basics then all can get a better understanding to correct or avoid potential problems.
 
Just my opinion.
Len Jaskiewicz

 

Re: Digest Number 2081 Hot Snubber

jazzmanlj
 

Hello,
Posted by: "Ed S" Date: Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:23 pm
>His instructions recommend not to using a continuous loop but he
does not give a reason.

The answer is here: NMRA
StandardS-9.1.2 - 5 end ofsection.
“5. Topology
Only one Command Station signal generator output or Power Station Interface Repeater output
155 may be connected to a Power Station Interface. Inputs of many Power Stations may be connected
in parallel connection to the two wires of the bus. It is acceptable to use tree, star, and daisy chain
connections. However, it is not allowed to connect any part of this bus in a loop. The bus, or
branches, must not create a loop to themselves or to another branch. If multiple Power Station
Interfaces are used on a layout, they must not be interconnected. They should be clearly identified
160 to eliminate possible cross connecting.”
This implies that it is the same track. They should not form a loop.

Good day digital.
Charles_2_Bordeaux.
France.

 

IMHO the NMRA spec and in many others such as MIL, etc are written not for the layperson but for the technically inclined! Industry specs are meant for highly technical people.That's OK. Technical people, it's our job and we have to scrutinize and understand every sentence!

 

NMRA sets the standard for manufacturers etc, where technical details are important but these are beyond the average modelers comprehension. Perhaps NMRA or another party should try to adress the layperson and write in terms that could be digested!

Just my opinion.

Len Jaskiewicz

 

 

Loops and Extended Buses

Doc Colin <colinseggie@...>
 


Hi All  I agree Len.
What is interesting is that a 180 foot, untwisted bus and looped back on itself functioned without shutting down the command station/booster. Or am I preprogrammed because I use Digitrax exclusively, along with the odd PSX from DCC Specialties.
Somewhere along the line someone mentioned that NCE systems can be used that way, ie with a looped bus.
If one used the 30 foot rule in either direction  (60 feet), then in a 180 foot continuous loop track , two boosters and a  command station should be used correct?
I have read you can go 30' in any direction, even say a star 5 arms each 30' or less.
So what then is limiting the bus to only 30' in a single direction regardless of whether its power is rated 8 or 5 or 3 amps?
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 7:46 PM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Re: Digest Number 2081 Hot Snubber

 

Maybe it's time to put the hot snubber to bed and open a discussion as to loops and wiring! That might be more informative and productive.

Len Jaskiewicz

Re: Digest Number 2081 Hot Snubber

William Teeters <cozyflyr9398@...>
 

Thank you for explaining that. Bill Teeters


From: CS_listes <charles.soubiran@...>
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 12:04 PM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Re: Digest Number 2081 Hot Snubber

 
 
Hello,
  Posted by: "Ed S" Date: Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:23 pm
>His instructions recommend not to using a continuous loop but he
does not give a reason.

The answer is here: NMRA
Standard S-9.1.2 - 5 end of section.
“5. Topology
Only one Command Station signal generator output or Power Station Interface Repeater output
155 may be connected to a Power Station Interface. Inputs of many Power Stations may be connected
in parallel connection to the two wires of the bus. It is acceptable to use tree, star, and daisy chain
connections. However, it is not allowed to connect any part of this bus in a loop. The bus, or
branches, must not create a loop to themselves or to another branch. If multiple Power Station
Interfaces are used on a layout, they must not be interconnected. They should be clearly identified
160 to eliminate possible cross connecting.”
 
This implies that it is the same track. They should not form a loop.

Good day digital.
Charles_2_Bordeaux.
France.
 
Bonjour,
La réponse est ici :
Cela sous-entend qu’il en est de même pour les rails. Ils ne doivent pas former une boucle.
Bonne journée en numérique.
Charles_2_Bordeaux.
France.


Re: Hot Snubber

Theo van Riet
 




Op 15 mrt. 2014, om 17:41 heeft redking56@... het volgende geschreven:

 

Steve, the hot snubber had a 1/2 watt resistor, and I initially replaced the 1/2 watt resistor with a 1 watt resistor, but the problem persisted.  When I replaced the capacitor and retained the 1 watt resistor, the snubber became a lot less hot to the touch.



_

Very logic, most of the time it's the condenser slowly deteriorating......

Common illness with condensers..

Even Apple once had a huge problem wth it.

Theo



-- 
groeten vanop de Heide        -----

Re: Digest Number 2081 Hot Snubber

jazzmanlj
 

Maybe it's time to put the hot snubber to bed and open a discussion as to loops and wiring! That might be more informative and productive.

Len Jaskiewicz

Re: Hot Snubber

Max Maginness
 

Err…  I think you have your Joules and BTU’s  tangled here……

 

Max

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] On Behalf Of dvollrath@...
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 9:09 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Re: Hot Snubber

 

 

The definition of 'hot' is subjective. If you pinch a resistor between your fingers for 4 or 5 seconds and it is dissipating even 1/4 watt it will feel 'hot'. 1/4 watt for 4 seconds (1 watt-second = 1 Joule) and is enough heat energy to raise the temperature of one pound of water one degree F. Compare the mass of your fingers with a pound of water and you can guess how long it will take to raise the temperature of your finger to a sensitive or even uncomfortable level. If the capacitor is shorted, the resistor will see full track voltage across it. 14V x 14V / 100 ohms = nearly 2 watts.

 

If you have substituted a different R & C network in that same location and it does not get 'hot', the original capacitor is either the wrong value or faulty. Please throw it out and let's get off this subject.

 

DonV


No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1432 / Virus Database: 3722/6696 - Release Date: 03/14/14