Date   
ANOTHER AUTO REVERSE LOOP QUESTION

Ed
 

My reverse loop has a second entry point back to the main on one side of the loop only (see diagram in reverse loop file folder under "ESR reverse loop").  This looks like it should perform OK.  Does anyone see issues with this setup?

Ed Robinson


New file uploaded to WiringForDCC

WiringForDCC@...
 

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Description : Reverse loop with double entry on one side


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Re: Advice on Team Digital Setup

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

Jerry,

 

The TD BlocD8 header pin-out is shown on p 8-9 of their tech manual. Their TSA adapter board plugs right on to the 10 pin output header connector and has a 470 ohm resistor between each output pin/channel and the screw terminals. Terminals 1-4 and 7-10 are the individual output channels that essentially pull their respective output line to gnd/common at pin 5 on the PCB (through the 470 ohm resistor) when that channel senses current in the CT. However, as furnished there is no +V power source on pin 6 of the BlocD8. You need to add a wire to connect the two solder pads marked with a + sign to get +5V on pin/terminal 6. [One near the standing up capacitors and the other near the PCB edge opposite end of the power terminals.] Verify that there is +5V on pin 6 relative to pin 5. Then if you simply connect the anode of an LED to TSA terminal 6 and the cathode to any other terminal it should light up when that channel senses current.  If you plug on the TSA in the opposite direction, the +5V supply and gnd/common terminals, as well as the other numbered output channel terminals swap places. The output driver is an open collector type  ULN2803.

 

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2015 9:05 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Advice on Team Digital Setup

 




Hi Folks,  I am using Team Digital BlocD8 detectors and would like to use their Terminal Strip Adapters (TSA) to connect LEDs to the output.  I am having a problem understanding just how to do this.  Would anyone have a diagram or a description of how they have done this? I don't know how to start the conversation, the diagrams in the BlocD8 and TSA manuals seem to odds to me.

 

Thanks.

 

Jerry Michels




Advice on Team Digital Setup

asychis@...
 

Hi Folks,  I am using Team Digital BlocD8 detectors and would like to use their Terminal Strip Adapters (TSA) to connect LEDs to the output.  I am having a problem understanding just how to do this.  Would anyone have a diagram or a description of how they have done this? I don't know how to start the conversation, the diagrams in the BlocD8 and TSA manuals seem to odds to me.
 
Thanks.
 
Jerry Michels

Re: AUTO REVERSER CIRCUITS

Paul
 

Ed,
   Are you looking at adding:
A: a wye ( a switch ) to lead into a stub or
B: a wye ( a triangular reversing module with 3 switches ) and one side of the wye (two of the switches) on the current reversing loop
C: some other configuration

Situation A should be a non-issues and could be feed with the power from the existing PSX-AR.
In situation B, I would have the switches coming off of the existing reversing loop be part of the current reversing loop, then the other two sides of the wye would be connected to one of my PSX's and the third wye (switch and and track attached to it) connected a new PSX-AR.

Paul

Re: AUTO REVERSER CIRCUITS

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

The simplest method as Mark suggested, pending no multiple train/operator interference, is to isolate and wire up the wye turnout and stub track to be fixed polarity. Source that power directly from an existing mainline DCC circuit. Even then you might have to fiddle with the PSX-AR adjustments to ensure that it flips the AR track polarity to suit before any other circuit breakers trip. But the PSX-AR should be doing that now.

 

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2015 12:37 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] AUTO REVERSER CIRCUITS

 



Thanks Mark and Don.  I suspected there may be some interaction that was not desired.  I will look more closely at your suggestions before I move on with my project.

Ed Robinson


Re: AUTO REVERSER CIRCUITS

Ed
 

Thanks Mark and Don.  I suspected there may be some interaction that was not desired.  I will look more closely at your suggestions before I move on with my project.

Ed Robinson

Re: AUTO REVERSER CIRCUITS

Mark Gurries
 

Although it is possible with the PSX-AR to work together with another PSX-AR and get it working…I would only do that as a last resort.


I would go with the throw bar method of determining polarity as Don indicated first.  If you use a tortoise to set the polarity, do so with the tortoise controlling a DPDT relay.  The Tortoise is, by design slow, and during the action of throwing the track polarity using it contact, you will temporally lose power on the stub track as it throws.  If you have a sound decoder, it might effect the sound.  The relay also solves the low contact current rating issue of running high DCC current through the contact.

Another thought which is the cheapest solution BUT would depend on how you operate you layout is to NOT put the stub and why do any autoreversing and let the existing PSX-AR deal with the problem.  Power the why and stub track with a regular DCC power form another DCC circuit breaker.  The only catch is you cannot have more than one train enter or leave the PSX-AR loop at the same time which will now include the train on the stub.  If you a one man train operator, this solution will work well.


On Jul 22, 2015, at 4:17 AM, lehighman@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

I have a long reverse loop on my layout that is managed by a PSX-AR.  I would like to add a wye module at the far end to service a quarry.  Can I just hookup another PSX-AR for that section or will a PSX-AR operating within another's district cause issues?

Ed Robinson



Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Re: AUTO REVERSER CIRCUITS

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

Ed, If you use another PSX-AR you should be able to adjust the sensitivity/timing to ensure that the one feeding the wye stub & turnout flips first. Another option would be to forgo the PSX-AR for the wye stub and simply use the throwbar position of the turnout feeding the stub to determine the polarity via DPDT contacts of a Tortoise or a separate relay… or even a manual toggle switch… fed from the original reversing track power.

 

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2015 6:18 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] AUTO REVERSER CIRCUITS

 



I have a long reverse loop on my layout that is managed by a PSX-AR.  I would like to add a wye module at the far end to service a quarry.  Can I just hookup another PSX-AR for that section or will a PSX-AR operating within another's district cause issues?

Ed Robinson

 




AUTO REVERSER CIRCUITS

Ed
 

I have a long reverse loop on my layout that is managed by a PSX-AR.  I would like to add a wye module at the far end to service a quarry.  Can I just hookup another PSX-AR for that section or will a PSX-AR operating within another's district cause issues?

Ed Robinson


Re: Reverse Polarity at Edge of Power District

Paul
 

Mark,
   The lack of a good diagram for RicZ's wiring issue makes it difficult as I cannot make sense of the ###---/// symbology.

I knew I should have checked on the terminology (Power vs Booster) before I posted but it was easy enough to see that both examples have  5 power districts with example 1 being single Booster District and example 2 being 2 Booster Districts.

I believe that by definition, all reversing loops are power districts and thus go right up to the edge of the district.  What I did not read was that it was two reversing loops edge to edge and so did not see why you said that he would have difficulties.

Paul

P.S. Your site is great, I studied the dickens out of it before I put together my wiring plan.

Re: Reverse Polarity at Edge of Power District

Mark Gurries
 

On Jul 17, 2015, at 5:26 AM, pbeinert@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:
Mark,
    I am not sure I completely understand your answer ("Yes") in relation to the OP's question.

On my layout, I have 1 DB150 for power and it feeds 2 PSX-ARs and 3 PSX's. With this configuration, I do believe that I have just 1 power district.

We have a common terminology problem here.

Power Districts are created by DCC circuit breakers.

Booster Districts are create by Boosters.

The above description shows you have 1 booster districts (DB150) powering 5 power districts (PSX…)

The confusion comes with the most common layout that only has the need for 1 booster.   There is never a need to talk about booster districts.  We only talk about power districts.

Only when a second booster or more introduced, do we need to talk about booster districts.

(Ancient DCC history:  Before DCC circuit breaker existed, the only solution for the creation of power districts was to use multiple boosters even if you did not need the extra power)

If instead, I add a DB150 as a booster and move the two PSX-ARs to it, then I would have 2 power districts and the reversing loop would be at the edge of a power district.

You now have two booster districts 

Booster District 1 has 3 power districts consisting of PSX's
Booster District 2 has 2 power districts consisting of PSX-AR

Your text diagram was very confusing….Its not your fault…text diagrams do not work do to proportion spacing AND a lot of blank spaces are involved.

Here is what I think you have:

I appear you have a double track main feeding into a double track reverse loop.  The two parallel reverse loop tracks are their own power districts (PSX-AR)

If you have two parallel main lines with EACH feed by its own PSX-AR —AND--- you have a crossover between them, then you have a special problem.  You normally cannot have two back to back reversing sections because when the train crosses, they will fight each other often resulting in shutdown like a short circuit.  Why?  Because they are each chasing the other in figuring out the correct track polarity.  They have no stable reference track polarity to target.

TWO SOLUTIONS

1) Follow the suggested recommendation of inserting a short section of "Neutral Track” between the two reversing sections.  The section of track needs to feed from a power district that does not have any autoreversing feature.  Its polarity must remain constant.  

2) The other option is to use a special feature of the PSX-AR.  You can program one PSX-AR to be the Primary and the other PSX-AR to be the Secondary.   When the train crosses the gaps between the two reversing sections, although both autoreversers see a polarity mismatch, only the Primary PSX_AR will change its polarity.  The Secondary PSX-AR will still function as a Autoreverser but it now knows to defer to the Primary when they come into contact with each other.



Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Re: Reverse Polarity at Edge of Power District

Richard Sutcliffe
 

Ric

We have a similar situation to what you and Jerry describe.
When we converted to DCC the same question was asked.
The advice was the same. The short section of main track 1 just needs to be a foot or so long and match the phase of main track 1, then you can start the next block, with matching phase , of course.

Works a treat.

On Jul 17, 2015, at 7:12 AM, asychis@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

RicZ,
 
We just had this same thing at our club.  We had a staging yard and two mainlines that were originally one block.  The mains formed a balloon track at the end of the yard, main 1 reversing into main 2. We decided to separate the two mainlines from the yard. We were already using an AR 1, and all worked fine. hen we separated out the mains as separate blocks, we ended up with main 1 consisting of the mainline and the balloon, and main 2 just being a mainline.  That didn't work, when a train crossed from the balloon to main 2, there was a short and jerk before the train started up again.  After a while it made sense to me that this was a mistake.  So, long story short, I reconfigured the setup so that a section of the track coming out of the balloon track was wired to main 1, and then to main 2, letting the AR1 do its job.  All is nwt back to the same smooth operation as before.
 
Jerry Michels
Amarillo Railroad Museum 

Dick Sutcliffe
Secretary
Honorary Life member
Dewdney-Alouette Railway Society
Located in the Maple Ridge Museum

Re: Reverse Polarity at Edge of Power District

asychis@...
 

RicZ,
 
We just had this same thing at our club.  We had a staging yard and two mainlines that were originally one block.  The mains formed a balloon track at the end of the yard, main 1 reversing into main 2. We decided to separate the two mainlines from the yard. We were already using an AR 1, and all worked fine. hen we separated out the mains as separate blocks, we ended up with main 1 consisting of the mainline and the balloon, and main 2 just being a mainline.  That didn't work, when a train crossed from the balloon to main 2, there was a short and jerk before the train started up again.  After a while it made sense to me that this was a mistake.  So, long story short, I reconfigured the setup so that a section of the track coming out of the balloon track was wired to main 1, and then to main 2, letting the AR1 do its job.  All is nwt back to the same smooth operation as before.
 
Jerry Michels
Amarillo Railroad Museum 

Re: Reverse Polarity at Edge of Power District

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

Paul,

As described, your present system has 5 power districts (separated by circuit breakers) all powered by the same single booster district.

 

If you add another booster and split the PSX-AR connections  then you would have 2 booster districts, one with 2 power districts and the other with 3 power districts.

 

As long as the booster commons are connected together having the booster district change at the end of an A-R section powered from the other booster will not cause any issues.

 

If you already have the PSX-AR units… Why would you want to go back to using manual DPDT switches for a reversing section?

 

DonV

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Friday, July 17, 2015 7:27 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Reverse Polarity at Edge of Power District

 



Mark,

    I am not sure I completely understand your answer ("Yes") in relation to the OP's question.

 

On my layout, I have 1 DB150 for power and it feeds 2 PSX-ARs and 3 PSX's. With this configuration, I do believe that I have just 1 power district.

 

If instead, I add a DB150 as a booster and move the two PSX-ARs to it, then I would have 2 power districts and the reversing loop would be at the edge of a power district.

 

My belief is that neither scenario would present any difficulties.

 

And if I replaced the two PSX-ARs with PSXs and DPDT switches, I still would not have any difficulties with either scenario (other than operator error.

 

Paul




Re: Reverse Polarity at Edge of Power District

Paul
 

Mark,
    I am not sure I completely understand your answer ("Yes") in relation to the OP's question.

On my layout, I have 1 DB150 for power and it feeds 2 PSX-ARs and 3 PSX's. With this configuration, I do believe that I have just 1 power district.

If instead, I add a DB150 as a booster and move the two PSX-ARs to it, then I would have 2 power districts and the reversing loop would be at the edge of a power district.

My belief is that neither scenario would present any difficulties.

And if I replaced the two PSX-ARs with PSXs and DPDT switches, I still would not have any difficulties with either scenario (other than operator error.

Paul

Re: Reverse Polarity at Edge of Power District

Mark Gurries
 

On Jul 16, 2015, at 3:32 PM, ezrails@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

I have a reverse loop/polarity change that is going to be at the edge of the power district (I have five power districts). Does this pose a difficulty?
Yes.

This is the purpose of an Auto Reverser. It handles the polarity/phase issue of both ends of the reverse loop by dynamically flipping the polarity of the reverse loop to match the entrance or exit depending on where the train is.
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm#reversing

The golden rule for guaranteed flawless operation with any and all types of rolling stock is to make sure the train fits inside the reverse loop such that it is not crossing both the entrance and exist of the reverse loop at the same time.
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/intro2dcc.htm#a25

You can buy

1) just an Autoreverser device which solves the polarity problem without manual operation required. Run your train, not your layout.
There are many devices on the market.

2) combination Autoreverser/DCC circuit breaker device which in addition to solving the polarity problem also makes the reversing loop section a power district.
The best performing combo device is the PSX-AR.

The best performing Autoreverse devices are solid state Autoreversers. No relays. The performance criteria is the device having the least amount of power disruption on the track in performing the reversing function. AKA power glitch free. Relays are mechanical and slow. A sign you have less then the best possible performance are blinking headlights or worse, sound decoder resets.

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com

Reverse Polarity at Edge of Power District

Eric
 

I have a reverse loop/polarity change that is going to be at the edge of the power district (I have five power districts).  Does this pose a difficulty?

#####--\           ### is power district 1

               \.            ---///\\\ are reverse loop/polarity sections (requiring an auto reverser

                |

               /

##+++--/.             ++++ is power district 2; same polarity as power district 1


RicZ

Re: DCC Bus Wiring

Peter Rushworth
 

Hi Douglas,

Welcome to the world of DCC. We have converted one layout to DCC and we have built two new ones both DCC at our Club. 

The one converted was a large 00 gauge layout and we used 1x DCS200 and 1x DB200 Digtrax controllers.  We have had no problems with power feeds, though we used two PM42 to break up the feeds into 8 sets and these are feed around the layout in each direction. 

The two new layouts were one N gauge and one 00 gauge.  The 00 gauge one we are addiong signalling to at present.

I can provide more information if required.

I suggest you consider using Digitrax equipment and join the JMRI and Digitrax user groups if you don't already belong.

Peter Rushworth
DCC Advisor
Wellington British Railway Modellers 

Re: DCC Bus Wiring

Mark Gurries
 

I, I am a member of a Model Railway Club, here in Christchurch New Zealand. At long last the club has taken the first step in getting the layout ready for DCC. The layout is a double track continuous run of about 100ft on each track.
I have not seen the track diagram, but you indicated you have 100Ft loops of track. You did not say If the loop of track is stacked on top of each other or a big flat run around the room.

When you run any DCC bus longer than 30Ft, there are some considerations in the wiring.

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm#c2

Slitting the bus runs into two 30ft runs in each direction will allow you cover 60ft. This is discussed in the above section.

If you had 100Ft of track run in a double layer with 50ft on the lower level and 50 ft on the upper level, it become possible for a single booster to cover both levels.

But if you had 100ft flat layout, then it would be best advised to break the layout into to two booster districts. One booster cover 1/2 the layout while the 2nd cover the other half.


The question arose as to whether the buses could be continuous or would they have to be terminate so that the boosters fed out in each direct from where they were situated.
On Jul 7, 2015, at 9:11 AM, 'Vollrath, Don' dvollrath@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

Douglas, If your question is “Should the DCC bus be a continuous loop around the layout or be discontinuous ½ way around from the booster location”, you will get a mix of answers and arguments. Obviously the track may/can make a continuous loop without causing problems. I suggest that you make the DCC bus go around the layout in a continuous loop, with the attachment of the booster as a short ‘stub’ feeding the under the layout DCC bus. Add track feeders or ‘droppers’ as necessary around the layout. If you later notice DCC control problems in certain parts of the layout, Add an R-C snubber to the DCC bus supply loop ½ way around from the booster. If that does not resolve the DCC control issue, then cut the DCC bus into two pieces approximately equal length ½ way around the loop and add an R-C snubber to each lose end.
And add two insulated rail joiner above the location where you cut the bus in half so there is a 100% electrical break.

I can say from first hand experience, breaking the loop and wiring solved problems. I had a modular layout with a problem,

However if you address the 100ft bus run problem above, typically you will have broken the track electrically some place anyway negating concern for this issue.

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com