Re: Double Slip Switch - indicators showing path

Paul O

Ron, Rich et all,

The trick is to have the switch on the right side control the LEDs on the left side;

and have the switch on the left side control the LEDs on the right side.

Paul O

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 5:17 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Re: Double Slip Switch - indicators showing path

Ron, thanks for that explanation.

I understand the electrical paths and how either the upper or lower

LED will be lit green.

But I remain confused how this will light the correct route on a double slip.

Using my diagram, assume the loco wants to navigate the double slip from B to C. The left side DPDT is thrown to the up position, and the right side DPDT is thrown to the down position.  The LED's that light green show the correct route.

But now, instead, assume the loco wants to navigate the double slip from B to D.

The left side DPDT is thrown to the down position, and the right side DPDT is thrown to the down position.  The LED's that light green do not show the correct

route. The loco will travel from B to D, but the LED's indicate that the route is A to C.

At least, that is how I see it.

Rich

---In WiringForDCC@..., <r.stlaurent@...> wrote :

Hi Rich,

Here's my feeble attempt to demonstrate the proposed solution.

I have sent a file called "double slip wiring".

As you know the DPDT switch is wired to change the polarization of the Tortoise to throw the bar.

First, as suggested, I will use only green LEDs to indicate the switch path.

LEDs are polarity specific.  Hook them one way (positive to anode) and they light, hook them the other way (positive to cathode) and they don't light.

The file only looks at one half of the double slip, repeat this for the other half.

Take two LEDs and solder anode of one to cathode of the other and repeat for the other two leads.

Look at the illustration in the file.  Throw your DPDT in the up position and send positive to the anode, through the LED, and on to the tortoise.  The top LED will l! ight and the tortoise will be thrown to the left.  The bottom LED is unaffected as it is "reverse polarized".  Now look at the second illustration.  Throw the DPDT in the down position and send positive to the tortoise then on to the anode through the LED to the cathode and back to the switch.  This will throw the tortoise to the right and light the lower LED.

So basically, if the switch is in the up position the upper LED lights, when in the down position the lower LED lights.  Do the same for the other side of the switch and you will have a path indication for a double slip.

I'm not an electrician, some may find fault in electrical theory but this is how I see it as a layman.

Re: Double Slip Switch - indicators showing path

redking56@...

Ron, thanks for that explanation.

I understand the electrical paths and how either the upper or lower
LED will be lit green.

But I remain confused how this will light the correct route on a double slip.

Using my diagram, assume the loco wants to navigate the double slip from B to C. The left side DPDT is thrown to the up position, and the right side DPDT is thrown to the down position.  The LED's that light green show the correct route.

But now, instead, assume the loco wants to navigate the double slip from B to D.
The left side DPDT is thrown to the down position, and the right side DPDT is thrown to the down position.  The LED's that light green do not show the correct
route. The loco will travel from B to D, but the LED's indicate that the route is A to C.

At least, that is how I see it.

Rich

---In WiringForDCC@..., <r.stlaurent@...> wrote :

Hi Rich,

Here's my feeble attempt to demonstrate the proposed solution.

I have sent a file called "double slip wiring".

As you know the DPDT switch is wired to change the polarization of the Tortoise to throw the bar.

First, as suggested, I will use only green LEDs to indicate the switch path.

LEDs are polarity specific.  Hook them one way (positive to anode) and they light, hook them the other way (positive to cathode) and they don't light.

The file only looks at one half of the double slip, repeat this for the other half.

Take two LEDs and solder anode of one to cathode of the other and repeat for the other two leads.

Look at the illustration in the file.  Throw your DPDT in the up position and send positive to the anode, through the LED, and on to the tortoise.  The top LED will light and the tortoise will be thrown to the left.  The bottom LED is unaffected as it is "reverse polarized".  Now look at the second illustration.  Throw the DPDT in the down position and send positive to the tortoise then on to the anode through the LED to the cathode and back to the switch.  This will throw the tortoise to the right and light the lower LED.

So basically, if the switch is in the up position the upper LED lights, when in the down position the lower LED lights.  Do the same for the other side of the switch and you will have a path indication for a double slip.

I'm not an electrician, some may find fault in electrical theory but this is how I see it as a layman.

New file uploaded to WiringForDCC

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This email message is a notification to let you know that
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File : /doubleslip/double slip wiring.pdf
Uploaded by : roncsx <r.stlaurent@...>
Description :

You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/WiringForDCC/files/doubleslip/double%20slip%20wiring.pdf

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Re: Double Slip Switch - indicators showing path

RONALD ST.LAURENT

Tom, thank you for the circuit diagrams, yours are much better than mine, LOL.  We have uses for the internal switches on the Tortoises therefore I will use the in-line method on the LEDs.

On Friday, October 30, 2015 9:09 AM, "Thomas Stephens deerpen4@... [WiringForDCC]" wrote:

Ron

I uploaded a couple of circuits for double slip indications.
I put them in the folder where you put your drawing.
Tom

From: "'Ron St.Laurent' r.stlaurent@... [WiringForDCC]"
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 12:06 PM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Double Slip Switch - indicators showing path

A friend of mine is building a new DCC HO railroad.  There is a double slip on his layout and I am looking for a simple LED circuit to show the path to which the switch is selected.  We are using DPDT toggles to reverse the current and Tortoise switch machines to control the turnouts.  Pointing me is the direction to such a circuit would be appreciated.  I will upload an image called doubleslip to the files section to show the end result what I'm looking for.  Thanks in advance.  RONCSX

Re: Double Slip Switch - indicators showing path

RONALD ST.LAURENT

Hi Rich,

Here's my feeble attempt to demonstrate the proposed solution.

I have sent a file called "double slip wiring".

As you know the DPDT switch is wired to change the polarization of the Tortoise to throw the bar.

First, as suggested, I will use only green LEDs to indicate the switch path.

LEDs are polarity specific.  Hook them one way (positive to anode) and they light, hook them the other way (positive to cathode) and they don't light.

The file only looks at one half of the double slip, repeat this for the other half.

Take two LEDs and solder anode of one to cathode of the other and repeat for the other two leads.

Look at the illustration in the file.  Throw your DPDT in the up position and send positive to the anode, through the LED, and on to the tortoise.  The top LED will light and the tortoise will be thrown to the left.  The bottom LED is unaffected as it is "reverse polarized".  Now look at the second illustration.  Throw the DPDT in the down position and send positive to the tortoise then on to the anode through the LED to the cathode and back to the switch.  This will throw the tortoise to the right and light the lower LED.

So basically, if the switch is in the up position the upper LED lights, when in the down position the lower LED lights.  Do the same for the other side of the switch and you will have a path indication for a double slip.

I'm not an electrician, some may find fault in electrical theory but this is how I see it as a layman.

New file uploaded to WiringForDCC

WiringForDCC@...

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the WiringForDCC
group.

File : /double slip wiring.pdf
Uploaded by : roncsx <r.stlaurent@...>
Description : double slip wiring

You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/WiringForDCC/files/double%20slip%20wiring.pdf

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
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Regards,

roncsx <r.stlaurent@...>

Re: Double Slip Switch - indicators showing path

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>

Replace every red LED with a green one and then locate each LED to which track route is selected. Two Torti. Two green LEDs each.

DonV

On Oct 29, 2015, at 5:43 PM, redking56@...<mailto:redking56@...> [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...<mailto:WiringForDCC@...>> wrote:

I have read and re-read this entire thread and I am confused, so I hope that someone can clarify something for me.

Like the OP, I have a double slip turnout, and I use bi-polar LEDs mounted on a control panel along with DPDT toggle switches to visually identify the routes.

For those not familiar with the points on a double slip turnout, there are four pairs of points, two pair on each of two throwbars, each throwbar controlled by a manual or electronic switch such as a Tortoise. Two pairs of points are controlled by a throwbar, and the two pairs of points move in tandem either "up" or "down" to control one part of the route. The two throwbars, combined, control both parts of the route. I will refer to the two pairs of point on a throwbar as a "set".

I took the liberty to modify the OP's diagram by labeling the four segments of the double slip turnout as A, B, C, and D. I inserted arrows to show the position of the points for each route.

If you look at the first route on the diagram, B to D (or D to B), both sets of points are in a down position and both LED's are green.

Then look at the second route on the diagram, A to C (or C to A), both sets of points are in the up position and both LED's are green.

But, here is the problem as I see it. If both LED's are green in the first route (B-D) and the two sets of points are in the down position, then in the second route (A-C) with the two sets of points in the up position, the LED's would be red. The same is true for the other two routes as well. The B-C route would be red-green, and the A-D route would be green -red.

So, what am I missing?

Rich

Re: Double Slip Switch - indicators showing path

Thomas

Rich
Here is what you are missing:
The LED color relies on two things.
1. The position of the points (where are the points) and
2. Are they in the position requested? (are they where I want)
You must use both pieces of information to light the LEDs.
I would use switch machine contacts to answer question number 1.
I would use the toggle switch position to answer question number 2.
If  1 & 2 are yes, then light the LED green. You need to ask and answer
the questions for all four places (A, B, C and D).
I uploaded so typical circuits that satisfy the above conditions.
Tom

If you look at the first route on the diagram, B to D (or D to B), both sets of points are in a down position and both LED's are green.

Then look at the second route on the diagram, A to C (or C to A), both sets of points are in the up position and both LED's are green.

But, here is the problem as I see it.  If both LED's are green in the first route (B-D) and the two sets of points are in the down position, then in the second route (A-C) with the two sets of points in the up position, the LED's would be red. The same is true for the other two routes as well. The B-C route would be red-green, and the A-D route would be green -red.

So, what am I missing?

Rich

Re: Double Slip Switch - indicators showing path

redking56@...

I have read and re-read this entire thread and I am confused, so I hope that someone can clarify something for me.

Like the OP, I have a double slip turnout, and I use bi-polar LEDs mounted on a control panel along with DPDT toggle switches to visually identify the routes.

For those not familiar with the points on a double slip turnout, there are four pairs of points, two pair on each of two throwbars, each throwbar controlled by a manual or electronic switch such as a Tortoise. Two pairs of points are controlled by a throwbar, and the two pairs of points move in tandem either "up" or "down" to control one part of the route.  The two throwbars, combined, control both parts of the route. I will refer to the two pairs of point on a throwbar as a "set".

I took the liberty to modify the OP's diagram by labeling the four segments of the double slip turnout as A, B, C, and D.  I inserted arrows to show the position of the points for each route.

If you look at the first route on the diagram, B to D (or D to B), both sets of points are in a down position and both LED's are green.

Then look at the second route on the diagram, A to C (or C to A), both sets of points are in the up position and both LED's are green.

But, here is the problem as I see it.  If both LED's are green in the first route (B-D) and the two sets of points are in the down position, then in the second route (A-C) with the two sets of points in the up position, the LED's would be red. The same is true for the other two routes as well. The B-C route would be red-green, and the A-D route would be green -red.

So, what am I missing?

Rich

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Re: Double Slip Switch - indicators showing path

RONALD ST.LAURENT

Thanks to everyone for their advice.  It had not occurred to me to only have lit green LEDs to show the path and eliminate the red LEDs.  I can keep them in the circuit line with the tortoises per Circuitron directions and polarize them for the proper path.  Great advice, thanks.  Ron

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 1:28 PM, "'Vollrath, Don' dvollrath@... [WiringForDCC]" wrote:

I agree with you Dale. Too many lights, colored or not, tend to be clutter and somewhat confusing.
In the Tortoise diagram with LEDs shown in series with the motor, simply replacing the red LEDs with a simple diode will leave only the Green ones to show the selected path. Take that one step further… Use two green LEDs wired in anti-parallel but each located on the panel to indicate which track is selected by the polarity of current flowing through the tortoise motor.
DonV

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 11:44 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Re: Double Slip Switch - indicators showing path

Ron,

The Tortoise Instruction Sheet - http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/INS/800-6000ins.pdf - in drawing 4 on page 2 shows exactly what you want.  The two sets of parallel LEDs are two lead bi-color LEDs for your application.  The Tortoise provides the necessary current limiting so no resistors are required.

Dale Gloer

PS.  In my yard panel I installed an arrangement of LEDs just like your drawing.  I have found it somewhat confusing because that there are too many lights.  If I were doing it again I would only install the Green LEDs that illuminate for the chosen path.  I built a second panel later and did this. I like it much better.

Re: New file uploaded to WiringForDCC

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>

-----Original Message-----
From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 1:21 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] New file uploaded to WiringForDCC

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the WiringForDCC group.

File : /doubleslip/_Double Slip Indicators.pdf
Uploaded by : deerpen4 <deerpen4@...>
Description : Double Slip Indication 2

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Re: Double Slip Switch - indicators showing path

Thomas

Ron

I uploaded a couple of circuits for double slip indications.
I put them in the folder where you put your drawing.
Tom

From: "'Ron St.Laurent' r.stlaurent@... [WiringForDCC]"
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 12:06 PM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Double Slip Switch - indicators showing path

A friend of mine is building a new DCC HO railroad.  There is a double slip on his layout and I am looking for a simple LED circuit to show the path to which the switch is selected.  We are using DPDT toggles to reverse the current and Tortoise switch machines to control the turnouts.  Pointing me is the direction to such a circuit would be appreciated.  I will upload an image called doubleslip to the files section to show the end result what I'm looking for.  Thanks in advance.  RONCSX

New file uploaded to WiringForDCC

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File : /doubleslip/_Double Slip Indicators.pdf
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Description : Double Slip Indication 2

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Re: Double Slip Switch - indicators showing path

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>

I agree with you Dale. Too many lights, colored or not, tend to be clutter and somewhat confusing.

In the Tortoise diagram with LEDs shown in series with the motor, simply replacing the red LEDs with a simple diode will leave only the Green ones to show the selected path. Take that one step further… Use two green LEDs wired in anti-parallel but each located on the panel to indicate which track is selected by the polarity of current flowing through the tortoise motor.

DonV

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 11:44 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Re: Double Slip Switch - indicators showing path

Ron,

The Tortoise Instruction Sheet - http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/INS/800-6000ins.pdf - in drawing 4 on page 2 shows exactly what you want.  The two sets of parallel LEDs are two lead bi-color LEDs for your application.  The Tortoise provides the necessary current limiting so no resistors are required.

Dale Gloer

PS.  In my yard panel I installed an arrangement of LEDs just like your drawing.  I have found it somewhat confusing because that there are too many lights.  If I were doing it again I would only install the Green LEDs that illuminate for the chosen path.  I built a second panel later and did this. I like it much better.

Re: Double Slip Switch - indicators showing path

emrldsky

Hi Ron, Dale

I hooked mine in parallel because I did not want to limit the speed / power of the tortoise machine plus I did not want the long wire length from the machine to the panel to be a source of power interruption. I felt that operation of the turnouts had priority over indications.

Peace,

MikeG.

Ron,

The Tortoise Instruction Sheet - http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/INS/800-6000ins.pdf - in drawing 4 on page 2 shows exactly what you want.  The two sets of parallel LEDs are two lead bi-color LEDs for your application.  The Tortoise provides the necessary current limiting so no resistors are required.

Dale Gloer

PS.  In my yard panel I installed an arrangement of LEDs just like your drawing.  I have found it somewhat confusing because that there are too many lights.  If I were doing it again I would only install the Green LEDs that illuminate for the chosen path.  I built a second panel later and did this. I like it much better.

Posted by: dale.gloer@...

Re: Double Slip Switch - indicators showing path

Dale Gloer

Ron,

The Tortoise Instruction Sheet - http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/INS/800-6000ins.pdf - in drawing 4 on page 2 shows exactly what you want.  The two sets of parallel LEDs are two lead bi-color LEDs for your application.  The Tortoise provides the necessary current limiting so no resistors are required.

Dale Gloer

PS.  In my yard panel I installed an arrangement of LEDs just like your drawing.  I have found it somewhat confusing because that there are too many lights.  If I were doing it again I would only install the Green LEDs that illuminate for the chosen path.  I built a second panel later and did this. I like it much better.

Re: Double Slip Switch - indicators showing path

emrldsky

Hi Ron,

I have a similar setup. I used bi-color (red/green) LEDs, with a current limiting resistor – I used 1K ohm. I hooked each resistor & LED combination in parallel with each tortoise machine. The polarity for the appropriate color is easily determined by trial and error.

Peace,

Mike G.

A friend of mine is building a new DCC HO railroad.  There is a double slip on his layout and I am looking for a simple LED circuit to show the path to which the switch is selected.  We are using DPDT toggles to reverse the current and Tortoise switch machines to control the turnouts.  Pointing me is the direction to such a circuit would be appreciated.  I will upload an image called doubleslip to the files section to show the end result what I'm looking for.  Thanks in advance.  RONCSX

Posted by: "Ron St.Laurent"