Date   
Re: Older Shinohara Turnouts

Brad Ketchen <bketchen@...>
 

Tam Valley Frog juicers are expensive. Might as well buy new turnouts. Micro Engineering are the best for handthrowing as I do myself.. I've always had issues with Shinohara's (as I call them 'Shitohara's). 

Brad

On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 9:26 AM, dvollrath@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:
 

Yes. As with all power routing types... Isolate the diverging frog exit rails at the end of the turnout by using insulated rail joiners, and add a Frog Juicer to supplement the power connection at the corrected polarity from the points.


DonV



---In WiringForDCC@..., <tmurray63034@...> wrote :

I have 13 remaining "non DCC friendly" Shinohara turnouts on my layout that have served well in DC. Now planning to convert to DCC, and reading the "Wiring for DCC" page, I have a dilemma. I don't desire to use tortoises or mechanically linked switches to power route the isolated points, frog, and closure rails. I want to keep the brakeman's job secure (I like to hand throw turnouts) and it would be too expensive to replace all of the turnouts. It appears that the only good choice would be to purchase a couple Tam Valley Hex DCC Frog Juicers as this would also solve the "points as contacts" issue.. Am I on the right track? Thanks!


Re: Automated 'Block' Entry

Jan Boen
 

Hi,

This article goes (to) deep into detail.
For your model rail road it should be enough to e.g. understand that in a typical 2-rail digital system a block detection circuit comes in 2 basic flavors:
1- A diode circuit that allows detecting current consumption by a loco or car which results in a certain voltage drop.
This type is very commonly found in the market and has the advantage it will also work with (analogue) DC systems but has the disadvantage of having a voltage drop which may result in loco's running slower or more current being used to compensate for the voltage drop to keep the loco running at the same speed.
2- A Current Transformer (CT-coil) based solution which does not introduce a voltage drop but is somewhat more expensive because it comes with CT-coils and it only works for digital systems
How both systems work internally is less important.
In both cases you need electrically separated blocks and in one of the feeding wires you have to insert the block detection. So it goes in series with the tracks.

Read a bit about voltage, current and resistance and familiarize yourself with series and parallel circuits at a very basic level and understand that a typical DCC (i.e. digital) systems uses alternating (i.e. positive and negative) current/voltage to operate as opposed to classical analogue systems which typically use DC (direct current/voltage).

This web site makes good reading http://www.wiringfordcc.com/intro2dcc.htm

Good luck,


Jan

On 25/08/2017 23:39, railandsail railandsail@... [WiringForDCC] wrote:
 
This appears to be an interesting article, and well presented.
But its over my head, not being electrically inclined

https://www.jlcenterprises.net/pages/chapter-2-part-1


.



.

Re: SCALETRAINS alternate decoder installation

Richard Sutcliffe
 

To get both the decoders to operate off the same address you will have to consist them - usually basic (same address)
  

Re: Automated 'Block' Entry

Jan Boen
 

Hi Tony,

It's impossible to tell you exactly what to do as that is completely depending on your set-up.
It starts by understanding what you have and what you want to do and start with  the basics.
Control your turn-outs, get block detection up and running once that is working go to automating series of turnouts and look at automated braking etc.
The end state will be defining trains and routes and have them run automatically but it will take you time to get into the subjects.
Block detection is dependent on what you want to do so you must have a plan...
Alas what you're venturing into is pretty technical and requires understanding and a plan.
It's not rocket science but unless you understand what you're doing you will end in a swamp and you get disillusioned and will drop it.
If you find a magic short cut to get to great results I will gladly learn from you :-)

Railcom = http://www.dccwiki.com/Term:Railcom and http://www.esu.eu/en/support/white-papers/railcomplusr/

Good luck,


Jan

On 25/08/2017 17:58, ANTHONY DALILEO bklyns_baseball_club@... [WiringForDCC] wrote:
 
I am trying to understand what to do. I have read a bunch of stuff from jmri documentation but still have no understanding of how it will work or what to do. I am already connected via rockets interface and have tried the programming language. Someone must have programmed this but i have no idea where to find it. I have looked at everything available but still see no way to proceed.

What's railcom+ etc

Tony


On Aug 25, 2017, at 11:47 AM, Jan Boen jan.boen@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 

Hi Tony,

Sure it is perfectly possible to automate a complete lay-out using DCC and JMRI (and other protocols) using a combination of block detectors eventually combined with Railcom+ etc.
Start simple though and make sure you understand what you're trying to do.
Don't run before you can walk and you will get there.
Having some understanding about electricity and electronics with a base in computer software will help a lot.
Download some of the JMRI clinics you can find on-line.
Consider using e.g. RR-Cirkits kit and you can count on Dick Bronson to advise you when and if needed.

Best regards,

Jan

On 25/08/2017 16:34, ANTHONY DALILEO bklyns_baseball_club@... [WiringForDCC] wrote:
 
Does anyone actually know wether you can or cannot automate trains on a layout without using the old technique to doing it for lionel trains which was to sense a train,usually by its weight, and throw relays which shout off the ac power to a block.

Can jmri do it via detection , such as bdl168 boards, and keeping tract of what engine is in what block so it can automatically send signals to decoders to control the following train from entering an occupied block.  Has anyone actually done it?  Is it doable?

Tony


On Aug 25, 2017, at 10:00 AM, railandsail railandsail@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 


On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 8:52 AM, dvollrath@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:
This Yahoo account(s) can be SO FRUSTRATING. Many a time it has asked me to log in (even while I thought I had it set up automatically)

So I go to log in and it gives me two choices, 1) add an account, or 2) log out of the account. Well how can I log out of the account if its not recognizing I am logged in?
The I choose the "add Account", and it ask for my email. It displays that email and I choose it. Then it tells me it does not recognize that email?
....round and round this freaking Yahoo site
Brian

PS: While I am venting can someone tell me WHY all crap at the bottom of all messages has to get REPEATED over and over again??



Re: Automated 'Block' Entry

Brian Eiland
 

This appears to be an interesting article, and well presented.
But its over my head, not being electrically inclined

https://www.jlcenterprises.net/pages/chapter-2-part-1


.


Re: SCALETRAINS alternate decoder installation

dvollrath@...
 

Each decoder must be separately wired for the functions to work. Except for having the same track pick-up power connections there should be no wires or power sharing between the decoders. Connecting the commons of the decoders together is just asking for trouble.


DonV

 



---In WiringForDCC@..., <pcgumshoe@...> wrote :

I'm not a fan of the Loksound 4.0's volume level so I opted to purchase a non-sound unit and install a Loksound Select with a secondary decoder for the marker lights. This has proven to be almost impossible. For one, I have to combine the common wire from both decoders (or do I).  I can get headlights, number boards and beacon, but they are all on the Loksound Decoder.  The secondary decoder, a TCS A6X won't put out any light.


Any suggestions.

SCALETRAINS alternate decoder installation

Ashton Scott
 

I'm not a fan of the Loksound 4.0's volume level so I opted to purchase a non-sound unit and install a Loksound Select with a secondary decoder for the marker lights. This has proven to be almost impossible. For one, I have to combine the common wire from both decoders (or do I).  I can get headlights, number boards and beacon, but they are all on the Loksound Decoder.  The secondary decoder, a TCS A6X won't put out any light.


Any suggestions.

Re: Automated 'Block' Entry

AD
 

I am trying to understand what to do. I have read a bunch of stuff from jmri documentation but still have no understanding of how it will work or what to do. I am already connected via rockets interface and have tried the programming language. Someone must have programmed this but i have no idea where to find it. I have looked at everything available but still see no way to proceed.

What's railcom+ etc

Tony


On Aug 25, 2017, at 11:47 AM, Jan Boen jan.boen@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 

Hi Tony,

Sure it is perfectly possible to automate a complete lay-out using DCC and JMRI (and other protocols) using a combination of block detectors eventually combined with Railcom+ etc.
Start simple though and make sure you understand what you're trying to do.
Don't run before you can walk and you will get there.
Having some understanding about electricity and electronics with a base in computer software will help a lot.
Download some of the JMRI clinics you can find on-line.
Consider using e.g. RR-Cirkits kit and you can count on Dick Bronson to advise you when and if needed.

Best regards,

Jan

On 25/08/2017 16:34, ANTHONY DALILEO bklyns_baseball_club@... [WiringForDCC] wrote:
 
Does anyone actually know wether you can or cannot automate trains on a layout without using the old technique to doing it for lionel trains which was to sense a train,usually by its weight, and throw relays which shout off the ac power to a block.

Can jmri do it via detection , such as bdl168 boards, and keeping tract of what engine is in what block so it can automatically send signals to decoders to control the following train from entering an occupied block.  Has anyone actually done it?  Is it doable?

Tony


On Aug 25, 2017, at 10:00 AM, railandsail railandsail@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 


On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 8:52 AM, dvollrath@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:
This Yahoo account(s) can be SO FRUSTRATING. Many a time it has asked me to log in (even while I thought I had it set up automatically)

So I go to log in and it gives me two choices, 1) add an account, or 2) log out of the account. Well how can I log out of the account if its not recognizing I am logged in?
The I choose the "add Account", and it ask for my email. It displays that email and I choose it. Then it tells me it does not recognize that email?
....round and round this freaking Yahoo site
Brian

PS: While I am venting can someone tell me WHY all crap at the bottom of all messages has to get REPEATED over and over again??


Re: Automated 'Block' Entry

Jan Boen
 

Hi Tony,

Sure it is perfectly possible to automate a complete lay-out using DCC and JMRI (and other protocols) using a combination of block detectors eventually combined with Railcom+ etc.
Start simple though and make sure you understand what you're trying to do.
Don't run before you can walk and you will get there.
Having some understanding about electricity and electronics with a base in computer software will help a lot.
Download some of the JMRI clinics you can find on-line.
Consider using e.g. RR-Cirkits kit and you can count on Dick Bronson to advise you when and if needed.

Best regards,

Jan

On 25/08/2017 16:34, ANTHONY DALILEO bklyns_baseball_club@... [WiringForDCC] wrote:
 
Does anyone actually know wether you can or cannot automate trains on a layout without using the old technique to doing it for lionel trains which was to sense a train,usually by its weight, and throw relays which shout off the ac power to a block.

Can jmri do it via detection , such as bdl168 boards, and keeping tract of what engine is in what block so it can automatically send signals to decoders to control the following train from entering an occupied block.  Has anyone actually done it?  Is it doable?

Tony


On Aug 25, 2017, at 10:00 AM, railandsail railandsail@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 


On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 8:52 AM, dvollrath@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:
This Yahoo account(s) can be SO FRUSTRATING. Many a time it has asked me to log in (even while I thought I had it set up automatically)

So I go to log in and it gives me two choices, 1) add an account, or 2) log out of the account. Well how can I log out of the account if its not recognizing I am logged in?
The I choose the "add Account", and it ask for my email. It displays that email and I choose it. Then it tells me it does not recognize that email?
....round and round this freaking Yahoo site
Brian

PS: While I am venting can someone tell me WHY all crap at the bottom of all messages has to get REPEATED over and over again??


Re: Automated 'Block' Entry

AD
 

Does anyone actually know wether you can or cannot automate trains on a layout without using the old technique to doing it for lionel trains which was to sense a train,usually by its weight, and throw relays which shout off the ac power to a block.

Can jmri do it via detection , such as bdl168 boards, and keeping tract of what engine is in what block so it can automatically send signals to decoders to control the following train from entering an occupied block.  Has anyone actually done it?  Is it doable?

Tony


On Aug 25, 2017, at 10:00 AM, railandsail railandsail@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 



On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 8:52 AM, dvollrath@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:
This Yahoo account(s) can be SO FRUSTRATING. Many a time it has asked me to log in (even while I thought I had it set up automatically)

So I go to log in and it gives me two choices, 1) add an account, or 2) log out of the account. Well how can I log out of the account if its not recognizing I am logged in?
The I choose the "add Account", and it ask for my email. It displays that email and I choose it. Then it tells me it does not recognize that email?
....round and round this freaking Yahoo site
Brian

PS: While I am venting can someone tell me WHY all crap at the bottom of all messages has to get REPEATED over and over again??

Re: Automated 'Block' Entry

AD
 


Is the wiring for dcc a separate yahoo group or is it part of the digitrax or jmri group.

If separate why did i start getting those emails without joining it

Tony




On Aug 25, 2017, at 10:00 AM, railandsail railandsail@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 



On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 8:52 AM, dvollrath@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:
This Yahoo account(s) can be SO FRUSTRATING. Many a time it has asked me to log in (even while I thought I had it set up automatically)

So I go to log in and it gives me two choices, 1) add an account, or 2) log out of the account. Well how can I log out of the account if its not recognizing I am logged in?
The I choose the "add Account", and it ask for my email. It displays that email and I choose it. Then it tells me it does not recognize that email?
....round and round this freaking Yahoo site
Brian

PS: While I am venting can someone tell me WHY all crap at the bottom of all messages has to get REPEATED over and over again??

Re: Automated 'Block' Entry

Brian Eiland
 



On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 8:52 AM, dvollrath@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:
This Yahoo account(s) can be SO FRUSTRATING. Many a time it has asked me to log in (even while I thought I had it set up automatically)

So I go to log in and it gives me two choices, 1) add an account, or 2) log out of the account. Well how can I log out of the account if its not recognizing I am logged in?
The I choose the "add Account", and it ask for my email. It displays that email and I choose it. Then it tells me it does not recognize that email?
....round and round this freaking Yahoo site
Brian

PS: While I am venting can someone tell me WHY all crap at the bottom of all messages has to get REPEATED over and over again??

Re: Older Shinohara Turnouts

dvollrath@...
 

Yes. As with all power routing types... Isolate the diverging frog exit rails at the end of the turnout by using insulated rail joiners, and add a Frog Juicer to supplement the power connection at the corrected polarity from the points.


DonV



---In WiringForDCC@..., <tmurray63034@...> wrote :

I have 13 remaining "non DCC friendly" Shinohara turnouts on my layout that have served well in DC. Now planning to convert to DCC, and reading the "Wiring for DCC" page, I have a dilemma. I don't desire to use tortoises or mechanically linked switches to power route the isolated points, frog, and closure rails. I want to keep the brakeman's job secure (I like to hand throw turnouts) and it would be too expensive to replace all of the turnouts. It appears that the only good choice would be to purchase a couple Tam Valley Hex DCC Frog Juicers as this would also solve the "points as contacts" issue. Am I on the right track? Thanks!

Re: Automated 'Block' Entry

dvollrath@...
 

I agree Wouter. DCC only operation should be selected in CV29 such that absence of DCC commands being received (ie - DC rather than DCC on the track)  causes the decoder to decel to zero speed. the decel rate (momentum) and therefore the stopping distance  is programmable. So is the delay on recognizing there are no DCC commands being received. Every decoder brand may be different. Some work better than others.


There are always some conditions, limitations and exceptions that come into play when thinking about unsupervised automation. Ask the guys using a kill switch to protect an open bridge about using Keep-Alive :)


If all else fails use an operator/engineer per train that is always paying attention.


DonV



---In WiringForDCC@..., <vandoornw@...> wrote :

DonV,

Killing power does not work as instantaneously as you might otherwise expect in case of keep-alive batteries! If there is, there's also momentum to consider.

What DCC lacks here, is the option for a computer to steal control from a user instantly and unconditionally. But that would open up a whole new can of worms...
Wouter

Re: Automated 'Block' Entry

dvollrath@...
 


the filename is Following Protection Plan.docx

There are several other files with the poster's name of donevol.. that's me.
DonV

---In WiringForDCC@..., <azMikeG@...> wrote :

Hi Don,

Is it the file named “Auto Balloon Loop Control.pdf”?

That appears to switch the tortoise machines rather than controlling the power.



Peace,

Mike G. 

Re: Automated 'Block' Entry

dvollrath@...
 


Log into https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/WiringForDCC/conversations/messages

---In WiringForDCC@..., <railandsail@...> wrote :

Is this the site I need to be logged into?
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/site_map.htm

Older Shinohara Turnouts

Thomas Murray
 

I have 13 remaining "non DCC friendly" Shinohara turnouts on my layout that have served well in DC. Now planning to convert to DCC, and reading the "Wiring for DCC" page, I have a dilemma. I don't desire to use tortoises or mechanically linked switches to power route the isolated points, frog, and closure rails. I want to keep the brakeman's job secure (I like to hand throw turnouts) and it would be too expensive to replace all of the turnouts. It appears that the only good choice would be to purchase a couple Tam Valley Hex DCC Frog Juicers as this would also solve the "points as contacts" issue. Am I on the right track? Thanks!

Re: Automated 'Block' Entry

Brian Eiland
 

Is this the site I need to be logged into?
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/site_map.htm

And I have no intention to run them backwards around this layout...ha...ha.
But I do think I worked out some 'blocks' that would work on my proposed
layout. Just have to work on it a bit more after I finalize a plan.


Re: Automated 'Block' Entry

emrldsky
 

Hi Don,

Is it the file named “Auto Balloon Loop Control.pdf”?

That appears to switch the tortoise machines rather than controlling the power.



Peace,

Mike G.







Brian,

You need to be logged into the Yahoo! groups site to get to the optional headings at the top, not just reading e-mail type postings. Then select "Files" to get to the files list. In the MS tradition, individual files are far down that list below folders. I'll send the file to you via your e-mail address.



Yes, opposing protection is similar but must rely on having the power-off 'shadow' leading the train with at least the next block unoccupied and powered so that your train can move ahead into that block when there is no opposition. Hadn't thought too much about it. It might be easier to somehow mimic the tumble-down action of bi-directional signaling to kill power for any train at an opposing entrance to single track blocks when that section becomes occupied by a train entering from the other end. it may be easier to simply kill power to the whole section of single way track to prevent a corn field meet. I can also see that running a train backwards with the engine at the rear may be far more difficult to handle.



DonV





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Automated 'Block' Entry

whmvd
 

DonV,

Killing power does not work as instantaneously as you might otherwise expect in case of keep-alive batteries! If there is, there's also momentum to consider.

What DCC lacks here, is the option for a computer to steal control from a user instantly and unconditionally. But that would open up a whole new can of worms...
Wouter

On 24 August 2017 at 20:54, dvollrath@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:
 

Brian,

You need to be logged into the Yahoo! groups site to get to the optional headings at the top, not just reading e-mail type postings. Then select "Files" to get to the files list. In the MS tradition, individual files are far down that list below folders. I'll send the file to you via your e-mail address. 


Yes, opposing protection is similar but must rely on having the power-off 'shadow' leading the train with at least the next block unoccupied and powered so that your train can move ahead into that block when there is no opposition. Hadn't thought too much about it. It might be easier to somehow mimic the tumble-down action of bi-directional signaling to kill power for any train at an opposing entrance to single track blocks when that section becomes occupied by a train entering from the other end. it may be easier to simply kill power to the whole section of single way track to prevent a corn field meet. I can also see that running a train backwards with the engine at the rear may be far more difficult to handle.


DonV