Date   
Re: changing old DC Locomotives (Wheels)

David Edel <modelrrfan51@...>
 

Northwest Shortline has an on line catalog that list all the wheel sets available for Athearns locos. The most common knowledge would be the wheel size and if inside frame or outside frame. Inside is when the wheel bearing is between the two wheels and outside is when the bearing is on the outside of the wheels. Most of the 2000 or later locos from Athearns use the 42" wheels. If not sure, measure the wheel and the web site for Northwest will give you the wheel size to match your measurement.
Modelrrfan51

Steven Haworth <haworth7@...> wrote:
I don't remember all those details - it's been a while since I purchased
mine. As I recall, Northwest Shortline has a pretty good catalog, and
certainly in the hobby shop the packaging indicated which ones I needed.
Most locos are 36" wheels I believe; the exact part varies according to the
type of Athearn truck. Google around - I'm guessing Northwest Shortline or
one of their dealers has this info online somewheres.

- Steven
RGS pages - http://rgsrr.home.comcast.net/







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How do you speed match locomotives

jhuntcctx
 

Our club has DecoderPro. We want to speed match locomotives. What is
the best method to use? Is it all trial and error or is there something
we can use from reading the cv's on the base locomotive?

Re: How do you speed match locomotives

James Aldrich <baylinefan@...>
 

--- Jerry Hunt <jhunt@...> wrote:

Our club has DecoderPro. We want to speed match locomotives. What is
the best method to use? Is it all trial and error or is there something
we can use from reading the cv's on the base locomotive?

From what our club has done with 'speed matching' of engines, it's a conbination of both methods.
I would start with reading the CV values of all engines you want to consist. Place the engines on
the the track and run them at the same speed settings on the throttle. You'll be able to see which
engines are faster or slower than the base engine. You'll be able to adjust the CV values of the
other engines accordingly.

James Aldrich
Clovis, NM
ICQ: 851788
Yahoo ID: baylinefan

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Re: How do you speed match locomotives

dcesharkman
 

That depends on how close you want to match them. Unfortumately, the locomotives are not nice linear devices so a straight line MIN/MAX adjustment won't work all that well in some conditions. Plus, not all locomotives from different mfg's will even be close to matching in this way.

The first way, easiest is to copy the CV and then tweak the Forward and Reverse Trim. I think this is the better way than manipulating the individual steps.

The hard but best way is to match all of the speed steps to actual speeds. This takes a lot od calulation and actually interpolates to find the CV value that matches the speed to the standard. So this process is repeated for all 28 steps on each locomotive, plus maybe a little on the trim settings. In the end, this method will speed match every locomotive from any manufacturer, and I have used this in N-Scale to match the Kato and Intermountain F-Units and they can be mixed interchangably.

While this sounds hard, it will not be in the near future. I have a program that I wrote to let the computer do all of the calculations and measurements. It was written in C++ that I will be converting to a Java app that will interface with Decoder Pro. To make this automated, you will need a calibration track, meaning a simple oval with radius large enough not to bind you big steam or other long wheel base locomotives. Again, I am using 20" radius on a 4x8 as the calibration track for N-Scale, your results can be whatever you want, but the track has to stay intact. This also resuires a couple of Block Detection Sections, but that is about it. But in the end, you just download the initial speed table, put the loco on the track, and wait for about 5 minutes each direction and you are done. So about 12 minutes per locomotive for an exact match in both forward and reverse.

So these are a couple of options.

Respectfully,

David

Jerry Hunt <jhunt@...> wrote:
Our club has DecoderPro. We want to speed match locomotives. What is
the best method to use? Is it all trial and error or is there something
we can use from reading the cv's on the base locomotive?





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Re: How do you speed match locomotives

Nightstalker
 

David,
Just wondering if you have ever done any test to determine if the speed matched locos remain matched when pulling on a grade.
Jodie

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Re: How do you speed match locomotives

Don Vollrath <dvollrath@...>
 

--- In WiringForDCC@..., "Jerry Hunt" <jhunt@...> wrote:

Our club has DecoderPro. We want to speed match locomotives. What
is
the best method to use? Is it all trial and error or is there
something
we can use from reading the cv's on the base locomotive?
It is trial and error - with a little smarts. Every loco motor is
slightly different. Every loco brand & model can have different
gearing. Every brand and model decoder may react differently to the
same CV data entry. The only way to get locos to speed match from
the same throttle setting is to manipulate the min and max voltage
settings and hope that speed matching in between will be close enough
for consisting, or manipulate the 28 step custom speed table to get
what you want.

The smart part on your behalf is to establish a master goal of
maximum loco speed for each road/switcher/diesel/steam type if not
all the same. Then tweak one of your locos to yield the speed vs
throttle setting you want. Then match all other locos to the 'golden
loco' by tweaking their 28 step speed table to match that speed.
Decoder Pro makes this much easier...Especially if you stick with a
linear table. Operate in the 28 step mode. Use Programming On the
Main (POM). Find the minimum speed setting for CV67 that just makes
it creep. Find the CV setting that yields the maximum speed you
want. Put that in CV94. Use Decoder Pro to linearize the table
to "match ends". Send all 28 steps to the loco decoder. Now run
Master and New loco on the same or adjacent tracks. Retest speed
matching and tweak the new loco table if necessary. Consist them but
leave them un connected to each other. Then fiddle with CV3 & 4
accel/decel rates to yield the same performance profile.

Other hints:
Use the same make & model decoder in the same make & model loco of a
different road number. Identical CV settings except for road number
will be close enough for consisting.
Stick with 28 speed step operation as the 128 step mode can yield
different results with some decoders.
Don't use the NCE 'Momentum' feature as it screws up what you just
did to get multiple units to accelerate together. Get your operators
used to using realistic accel/decel rates.
Some decoders will not accept CV programming when the motor is
running. Be sure to stop before sending new POM settings.
You don't need to run the locos together to determine the initial max
speed setting. Once you have the 'golden' loco to run at 70 smph (or
whatever), use a stopwatch and a yardstick.
Decoders with BEMF control can be problematic. Read the manual and
peruse the boards to find a way to lower the gain to minimize
fighting between locos when consisted. Newer QSI units with RTC seem
to work better than others.
And... the CV value for max speed can be determined at speed step 2.
So you don't need to wear out the thumbwheel. Once determined, move
it to CV94 and use Decoder Pro to quickly fill out the table.

DonV

Re: How do you speed match locomotives

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

They will all run at the same speed obviously because they are connected together, but they may slow down as more torque is required. However, the strongest loco with the lowest electrical resistance in the motor, or one with BEMF compensation, will always pick up more load (amps) than others. Running down hill is another issue. Worm gears don't like to be pushed. binding and banging is a common symptom.
DonV

-----Original Message-----
From: WiringForDCC@...
[mailto:WiringForDCC@...]On Behalf Of Jodie Hall Sr
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 8:57 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] How do you speed match locomotives


David,
Just wondering if you have ever done any test to determine if the speed matched locos remain matched when pulling on a grade.
Jodie

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Re: How do you speed match locomotives

dcesharkman
 

Working on that issue and matching BEMF now. No results to report yet, I am now just building the layout for that now.

Jodie Hall Sr <nightstalker1967@...> wrote: David,
Just wondering if you have ever done any test to determine if the speed matched locos remain matched when pulling on a grade.
Jodie

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Re: changing old DC Locomotives

Bob Kohl <rojkoh@...>
 

My PAs are the older ones where you have to take the truck apart to get the wheels off. I don't remember any bearings but the frames are metal - pot metal if my memory is correct.There is a sheet metal liner of sorts also.

----- Original Message ----
From: Craig Zeni <clzeni@...>
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2007 4:01:13 PM
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] changing old DC Locomotives

Bob, the wheels are classic Athearn - 40 inch wheels on half axles.
I don't have a NWSL catalog to tell you the part numbers but they DO
have their catalog on line as PDF files.

Exactly which part number you need depends on the trucks. Do your
PAs have metal sideframes with wheel bearings in the sideframe, or
plastic sideframes with the square wheel bearings inboard of the
wheels? For the latter, you have to remove the bottom of the truck
to get the axles out. For the metal sideframes you generally have
to pull the entire truck off the locomotive and then take it
completely apart.

On Nov 1, 2007, at 5:45 PM, Bob Kohl wrote:

Did you have to pull the old wheels to put on the new ones?


----- Original Message ----
From: Steven Haworth <haworth7@gmail. com>
To: WiringForDCC@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2007 6:44:09 AM
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] changing old DC Locomotives

I don't remember all those details - it's been a while since I
purchased
mine. As I recall, Northwest Shortline has a pretty good catalog, and
certainly in the hobby shop the packaging indicated which ones I
needed.
Most locos are 36" wheels I believe; the exact part varies
according to the
type of Athearn truck. Google around - I'm guessing Northwest
Shortline or
one of their dealers has this info online somewheres.

- Steven
RGS pages - http://rgsrr. home.comcast. net/



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Re: How do you speed match locomotives

jhuntcctx
 

Thanks for the help everybody. Sounds like there's no "standard"
method but this will give me a starting point. Once I figure it out
on my locomotives, I think I will hold a clinic for the other club
members.

Jerry

--- In WiringForDCC@..., "Vollrath, Don" <dvollrath@...>
wrote:

They will all run at the same speed obviously because they are
connected together, but they may slow down as more torque is
required. However, the strongest loco with the lowest electrical
resistance in the motor, or one with BEMF compensation, will always
pick up more load (amps) than others. Running down hill is another
issue. Worm gears don't like to be pushed. binding and banging is a
common symptom.
DonV

-----Original Message-----
From: WiringForDCC@...
[mailto:WiringForDCC@...]On Behalf Of Jodie Hall Sr
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 8:57 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] How do you speed match locomotives


David,
Just wondering if you have ever done any test to determine if the
speed matched locos remain matched when pulling on a grade.
Jodie

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Reversing loops

geebeetooau <geebeetooau@...>
 

I am about ready to start laying the sub-terrain for my first attempt
at a model railway. I plan to use DCC to run the trains and am pleased
I found Allan Gartner's notes, "Wiring for DCC", as they have spelled
out many things about wiring I've not seen highlighted elsewhere.
However, I have come to his suggestion "Have a Simple Reverse Loop or
Wye? You Might Not Need to Buy Another Booster!"
(http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm#a9) about wiring reverse
loops and admit I don't understand what is being said, in particular
the two paragraphs directly underneath the two diagrams.

The first paragraph refers to SW#1 and SW#2, but only SW#1 is shown on
the diagrams. Does the statement, "You may have to experiment with
swapping the wires on SW#1 to make sure the locomotive runs fine
through the turnout without shorting your booster." mean the terminal
on the switch SW#1 (as shown in the diagrams) to which the relay is
connected depends on the direction in which the points are, or the
point motor is, set. In the second paragraph, what would the diagram
look like if, as the text says, "You only need SW#1 attached to your
local sub bus."?

Could someone please clarify the description of both diagrams.

It seems that Allen's description, like a lot of other articles i'm
reading, assumes prior knowledge and experience.

Prior knowledge is also assumed, it seems to me, in the section
following, "Reversing a Balloon Track with a Tortoise"
(http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm#a46). The novice, and I
include myself, has little or no knowledge of the different types of
points (Insulfrog vs Electrofrog, for instance) and what a Tortoise is
and why the bi-colour LED is used in series with the Tortoise. From
reading elsewhere I know the Tortoise is a turnout motor, but why make
special mention of that type and can other types of motor (such as
that from Peco which I have already bought) be substituted; and I
presume the LED is there to indicate the direction of the turnout. It
would be helpful if the text explained these things. I should add that
I have already bought Peco Insulfrog points and am trying to visualise
their use as I'm reading Allen's text.

In that same section, "Reversing a Balloon Track with a Tortoise",
paragraph 3 says:
"If you are using turnouts with powered frogs (such as the Atlas,
Kato, etc. above), connect your frog wire temporarily as shown to the
green wire on the output of the relay. Run a locomotive with all wheel
pick-up, like a diesel across the frog. If it shorts, move the frog
wire to the red output of the relay. (If you are using the turnout
that doesn't have the isolated frog, you need not perform this step.
Go to step 4.)"
It seems to me that there is a conflict between "... turnouts with
powered frogs ..." in the first sentence and "If you are using the
turnout that doesn't have the isolated frog ..." in the last sentence.
What is the difference between a turnout with a powered frog and a
turnout that doesn't have an isolated frog?

Can someone also clarify this section for me.

Geoff

Insul-frog versus Electro-frog

Bob Thomas <dblbass37@...>
 

Hi,
As a newbie, I am ready tobuy turnouts for my around-the-rec-room at
the ceiling layout. I have a couple of questions.
First, I know there are power-routing and ____ turnouts. I also know
there are Insul-frog and Electro-frog turnouts. I further know that
there are DCC friendly turnouts. My question is, what do I buy?
The Walthers DCC-friendly turnouts are all code 83, which don't fit
with my code 100 track.
Peco has a choice of insul or electro.
Atlas doesn't say, and Shinohara has no comment.
MR from June, 07 talks about the two types, but doesn't tell me what to
buy. Please explain for me--in one-syllable words.

Bob 8}0

Source for 1156 bulbs - WalMart

Neil <neilgoldman@...>
 

Hi. I happened to come across this great blog
<http://rgsrr.blogspot.com/> of a very large layout under development,
and it mentions that 1156 bulbs are available at Wal-Mart for only 98
cents each in the automotive section.
- Neil

Shinohara Double Crossover wiring help

Bernie Benson <bbenson@...>
 

Could anyone help with wiring detail (DCC) for a latest release double
crossover by Shinohara. I checked out the wiring help for the old
style however the new version has more gaps and it doesn't take too
much to confuse me. It would appear to require a number of drop
feeders - I can manage these - but once I attach the feeders I need to
know what next?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Bernie

Re: Insul-frog versus Electro-frog

Steven Haworth
 

I'm using the electro-frog, and I like them because (w/ a little extra work)
the frogs are powered and the turnout is completely DCC-friendly. I also
think the electro-frogs look better.

Under the Peco's, there's a little wire powering some of the rails. Use a
tiny screwdriver and break these off (there's two). Then, solder a jumper
between the two outer rails just beyond the points (the gaps are already
provided - just tin these up and solder a jumper.

You've now isolated the frog and make the point rails and adjoining main
rails the same polarity - so no shorts if a wheelset is a little
out-of-gauge.

The frog already will have a jumper wire soldered to it - pull this out of
the tie, drill a hole, and drop this below the roadbed. Then, tie that wire
into your turnout control so the frog is powered depending on which way the
turnout is thrown. Now - the frog is powered and there's no electrically
dead spots at all.


- Steven
RGS pages - http://rgsrr.home.comcast.net/

Re: Reversing loops

Earl Hackett <hacketet@...>
 

The basic concept of wiring a reversing loop, or section of track revolves around the fact that you can switch polarity of the signal and the engine doesn't care. It just keeps on running like nothing happened. If you did this with DC power the loco would instantly go in opposite direction. What you can not do in DCC operation is have the loco or any other conductive thing (wheel, truck, etc.) cross an insulating gap where the polarity of the tracks is not the same.

So if you have a reversing section or loop into which the entire train can fit (in the case of a simple reversing loop this is a mandatory condition) then all you do is switch the polarity in the loop while the whole train is in it. This can be easily done with contacts on the switch motor.

In the case of a reversing track section, if you put a short length of dead track long enough to contain the largest conductive truck at both ends then the reversing track section need be no longer that your longest motive power lashup. You can arrange to have all this taken care of automatically with an auto reverser module that detects shorts and reverses polarity to correct the problem, or you can build your own. I usually design and build my own from basic components just because I like to - and they usually work better than the commercial stuff.

As for the various types of switch frogs - insulated, electro, etc - , I'm not much help since I build my own with fully powered frogs and don't know a darn thing about any of them..

Re: Insul-frog versus Electro-frog

Don Vollrath <dvollrath@...>
 

--- In WiringForDCC@..., "Bob Thomas" <dblbass37@...> wrote:

Hi,
As a newbie, I am ready tobuy turnouts for my around-the-rec-room at
the ceiling layout. I have a couple of questions.
First, I know there are power-routing and ____ turnouts. I also know
there are Insul-frog and Electro-frog turnouts. I further know that
there are DCC friendly turnouts. My question is, what do I buy?
The Walthers DCC-friendly turnouts are all code 83, which don't fit
with my code 100 track.
Peco has a choice of insul or electro.
Atlas doesn't say, and Shinohara has no comment.
MR from June, 07 talks about the two types, but doesn't tell me what
to
buy. Please explain for me--in one-syllable words.

Bob 8}0
I build the staging areas of my layout with code 100 flextrack and
insulated frog type turnouts, all from Atlas. Later visible portions
of the layout were build with all code 83 (because it looks better)
using a mixture of Atlas and Walthers/Shinohara turnouts as they became
available. The Atlas code 83s are fairly DCC friendly and you can
power the frog through an auxiliary switch. Once you add suplemental
feeders either brand works well with DCC. But roll-through is much
smoother with W/S turnouts.

If I had to do it all over again (and had unlimited funds) I would use
all Walthers/Shinohara as they look much better... And especially now
since they have made them a little more DCC friendly. These are
electrofrog power routing type. However I would always isolate the
frog rails and use an auxiliary micro-switch to select polarity of the
frog and diverging rails. Peco turnouts are quite popular also. I
would consider using the electro-frog version in the same manner.

Don't forget to look at other brands as well. Micro Engineering and
others are becomming better looking and are claimed to be DCC friendly.

DonV

Re: Insul-frog versus Electro-frog

John
 

hI Bob

To keep it simple, if you have large locomotives with tender
pickup then you can get away with insulfrog (just plug and play) if you have
a lot of smaller locomotives and you want slow running buy electrofrog and
power route the frog (more work)............John



From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] On
Behalf Of Bob Thomas
Sent: 04 November 2007 04:53
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Insul-frog versus Electro-frog



Hi,
As a newbie, I am ready tobuy turnouts for my around-the-rec-room at
the ceiling layout. I have a couple of questions.
First, I know there are power-routing and ____ turnouts. I also know
there are Insul-frog and Electro-frog turnouts. I further know that
there are DCC friendly turnouts. My question is, what do I buy?
The Walthers DCC-friendly turnouts are all code 83, which don't fit
with my code 100 track.
Peco has a choice of insul or electro.
Atlas doesn't say, and Shinohara has no comment.
MR from June, 07 talks about the two types, but doesn't tell me what to
buy. Please explain for me--in one-syllable words.

Bob 8}0





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04:36


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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.22/1111 - Release Date: 05/11/2007
04:36



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: re 1156 bulbs

WJNaumann@...
 

At my NAPA auto parts store dual filament 1157 brake and tail bulbs cost
less than the single filament 1156. That gives you some flexibility in using
one or both filaments.

walter

NACServicesInc.com

In a message dated 11/4/2007 2:39:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,
WiringForDCC@... writes:

_Source for 1156 bulbs - WalMart _
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WiringForDCC/message/2130;_ylc=X3oDMTJyNDVlOW0wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE0ODE3MDcyBGdycHN
wSWQDMTcwNTA2MzU3NgRtc2dJZAMyMTMwBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExOTQxNzI0N
zE-)

Posted by: "Neil" _neilgoldman@... _
(mailto:neilgoldman@...?Subject= Re:Source%20for%201156%20bulbs%20-%20WalMart) _ec_future _
(http://profiles.yahoo.com/ec_future)
Sat Nov 3, 2007 10:18 pm (PST)
Hi. I happened to come across this great blog
<_http://rgsrr.http://rghttp_ (http://rgsrr.blogspot.com/) > of a very large
layout under development,
and it mentions that 1156 bulbs are available at Wal-Mart for only 98
cents each in the automotive section.
- Neil






************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Re: Insul-frog versus Electro-frog

Mark Gurries
 

DonV

If I had to do it all over again (and had unlimited funds) I would
use all Walthers/Shinohara as they look much better... And
especially now since they have made them a little more DCC friendly.
<snip>
Don't forget to look at other brands as well. Micro Engineering and
others are becomming better looking and are claimed to be DCC friendly.
(All: To be clear, were talking none sectional "snap track" products.
Were talking flex track and standard switches)

100% Agreed.

But compared to Atlas, there is more setup and/or installation effort.
You cannot snap on a twin coil switch machine as offered on many Atlas
premium track products.

I personally place MicroEngineering even higher than Walthers/Shinohara.
It more detailed and accurate to scale. Furthermore, in a recent NMRA
Scale Rails examining track switches for conformance to NMRA standards,
it was the best. Only one error. The report was very eye opening.
However, Micro Engineering does not have the selection of types of
switches as Walthers/Shinohara product line does. Hence I often use
both at the same time.

Like Shinohara DCC friendly Switches, MicroEngineering is DCC friendly
too. The frog is dead by default and the switch point do not do any
power routing. Like Shinohara, to get a live frog, there is typically a
bit of careful work required. There is no screw tap or metal tab to
secure a wire too like Atlas has. With Micro Engineering in particular,
you must solder directly to the solid metal frog from the bottom. If
you do not know what your doing, it hard to do and easy to destroy the
switch making the solder connection (melt the surrounding plastic).
Needless to say, to set the polarity of the frog correctly, both
Shinohara or Micro Engineering will need to be driven by some contacts
from some type of switch machine used to control the switch.

When mixing track products from different vendors, I have found there is
typically a bit more work to make it different brands come together
well. Yes things connect, but for smooth rail connections, you need to
be precise. Rail joiners from one vendor do not always work well for
others for this is all about mechanicals beyond the rail height (code).

In a club, typically you have members with a wide range of track laying
experience. The best solution is to stick with what works for the
majority of them which is often track like Atlas. Atlas has put a lot
of thought into making the track laying experience quick and easy with
good operation but Atlas must sacrifice some "Scale and Prototype Look"
to make it work. In comparison, giving someone with limited experience
with MicroEngineering Flex track and they often attempt to use a
straight edge ruler (Works for Atlas and Shinohara) to make the track
straight which does not work. Why? Micro Engineering has more
prototypical offset ties. Further more, Micro Engineering flex track is
very stiff compared to Atlas flex track and Shinohara. Bottom line,
without the correct tools, techniques and experience, Micro Engineer can
be hardest track to work with. Those expecting Atlas easy of use will
be disappointed. But when you see Micro Engineering done correctly, it
very very very nice in both looks and flawless in operation. The closest
thing to well done hand laid track.

In my club, we were starting over in a new location and standardized on
the then new Atlas code 83 track and switches. We used Walthers Code 83
anyplace the Atlas switches did not offer us any equivalent options.
But for those with experience, there was no limitation to upgrading to
other track like Micro Engineering. Stated another way, we establish a
minimum standard.

Just my 0.02 cents.

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Linear Technology
Power Supply & Battery Charger Applications Engineer/Manager
---------------------------------------------------------
Model Railroad Club and NMRA DCC presentations are at:
http://www.siliconvalleylines.com/index.html
--------------------------------------------------------
Audio Enthusiast (Love SAE equipment)
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/gurriesm/
----------------------------------------------------------