Date   
Re: Terminating busses

Earl T. Hackett <hackete1@...>
 

Right now there are 3 boosters and I'm planning on adding a fourth for the storage tracks in the other room. One booster has 18 blocks, but several are very small yard ladders or just two point to point turnouts.

When I was starting this layout I was considering whether I should switch to DCC. The ability to have an independently controlled helper on the grade was the deciding factor. Although I was concerned with signal distortion, I could find no one that understood what I was talking about - or if they did, they weren't talking. Everyone said to just substitute a booster for a DC powerpack, add decoders, and everything will work just fine. The only concern tabled was the amperage capacity of the boosters and the potential for resistance heating in case of a derailment. I suspect that there was a desire by many individuals to see the DCC system succeed and no one was going to say anything bad about it. So with old DC wiring as a guide, I wired a booster to the EB and WB main with another for the yards. The double track main is about 400' long. From your website, it is obvious that my original concerns were well based and DCC is not suitable for use on long runs without special considerations.

With the rewiring, boosters are all being moved to the power distribution panels so the longest transmission distance will be about 25'. This rewiring project is expected to take at least 3 months. I really like the twisted pair arrangement as it helps keep things organized. Right now I'm just wiring the track to toggle switch cutoffs to aid in troubleshooting and leaving a small length of wire to which a compensating RC circuit can be added. Once that is done there is a cross over and a couple of turnouts that have to be added to the mainline to allow the proper switching moves at White Sulfur Springs. It will be at least 5 months before I'm ready to fire up the power and turn a wheel so there's plenty of time to figure out what is really required.

Re: Walthers DCC turnouts

wirefordcc <wire4dcc_admin@...>
 

I suggest 22 or 20 AWG feeders to your points.

I'm trying to whip my layout into shape for a show in a few weeks. I
have a few kinks to work out. I love steam, but I have one locomotive
that is indecisive - it always wants to go both ways on a turnout! :-)
SOMEDAY I'll have a perfect running layout! In the meantime, I'll be
using DCC friendly turnouts. I did install one non-DCC friendly, DCC
hostile :-), turnout so that I could better advise those people who
have not gone the DCC friendly route. I've decided it has caused
enough trouble and am replacing it with a DCC friendly one.

Good luck!

Allan


--- In WiringForDCC@..., "Elliott Janofsky"
<ejanofsky@h...> wrote:

Allan, What size wire would you use to insure that the movement of
the point
not be interfered with. Thanks, Elliott
And thanks for your website. It is of incalculable value in making
turnouts
DCC friendly. To watch a short wheelbase steamer crawl thru one with
not a
quiver is outstanding . Now do a double slip ( I have 3 in my
yard) and
a threeway (pecos) please.

Re: Walthers DCC turnouts

Elliott Janofsky <ejanofsky@...>
 

Allan, What size wire would you use to insure that the movement of the point not be interfered with. Thanks, Elliott
And thanks for your website. It is of incalculable value in making turnouts DCC friendly. To watch a short wheelbase steamer crawl thru one with not a quiver is outstanding . Now do a double slip ( I have 3 in my yard) and a threeway (pecos) please.

----- Original Message -----
From: "wirefordcc" <wire4dcc_admin@...>
To: <WiringForDCC@...>
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 3:33 PM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Re: Walthers DCC turnouts


Ed,

Thanks for posting your message on the forum. It's the way I can
help the most number of people with a single reply.

Do not ever solder a wire through the rivets of any turnout which
are used to hinge the points. Some turnouts have rivets at the
hinge point and the tips. Do not a wire through either set of
rivets. You will most likely ruin the turnout should you do this.

So where do you attach the wires? Referring to the new Walthers DCC
Compatiable turnout, attach your main wires to anywhere on the
turnout where you are least likely to cause damage to the turnout.
Do this to the rails leaving the frog as shown on my website at:
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_walthers.htm#a1 or the middle
of the turnout. You do need to attach a wire to the frog. Attach
to the outside of the frog and be careful that you don't melt your
frog.

Whenever soldering to track, make sure the rail is clean as well as
your soldering iron. I recommend solid solder and liquid flux. See
my website at: http://www.wiringfordcc.com/solder.htm

I recommend that you solder feeders to your points. Eventually,
your hinge points will develop electrical problems if you don't. I
have some turnouts I am testing to see just how long that will
take. We may have to wait for a few years! Soldering feeders to
points seems to be better in general. Soldering small wires around
the points makes the points too stiff for some popular switch
machines. When soldering to the points, don't solder too close to
the hinge point or the rivet. Be careful that the solder doesn't
wick to the hinge point or rivet. If it does, game over! Off to
the train store you go to buy a new turnout!

Allan







http://www.WiringForDCC.com
Yahoo! Groups Links





Re: Terminating busses

wirefordcc <wire4dcc_admin@...>
 

Earl,

Your 20 MHz scope should be more than adequate do the job for you.

You say you have 50 blocks, but how many on each booster? How many
are over 30' feet away? If you had to put 50 terminations all hanging
off of one booster, they would represent a significant load on your
booster. But I doubt your situation is as serious as this.

Since you have a scope, and I presume you have a basic operating
knowledge of it, you will be able to figure out exactly what you need.

Hopefully Mark and Don will be back next week and offer their advice.

Allan

Re: Walthers DCC turnouts

wirefordcc <wire4dcc_admin@...>
 

Ed,

Thanks for posting your message on the forum. It's the way I can
help the most number of people with a single reply.

Do not ever solder a wire through the rivets of any turnout which
are used to hinge the points. Some turnouts have rivets at the
hinge point and the tips. Do not a wire through either set of
rivets. You will most likely ruin the turnout should you do this.

So where do you attach the wires? Referring to the new Walthers DCC
Compatiable turnout, attach your main wires to anywhere on the
turnout where you are least likely to cause damage to the turnout.
Do this to the rails leaving the frog as shown on my website at:
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_walthers.htm#a1 or the middle
of the turnout. You do need to attach a wire to the frog. Attach
to the outside of the frog and be careful that you don't melt your
frog.

Whenever soldering to track, make sure the rail is clean as well as
your soldering iron. I recommend solid solder and liquid flux. See
my website at: http://www.wiringfordcc.com/solder.htm

I recommend that you solder feeders to your points. Eventually,
your hinge points will develop electrical problems if you don't. I
have some turnouts I am testing to see just how long that will
take. We may have to wait for a few years! Soldering feeders to
points seems to be better in general. Soldering small wires around
the points makes the points too stiff for some popular switch
machines. When soldering to the points, don't solder too close to
the hinge point or the rivet. Be careful that the solder doesn't
wick to the hinge point or rivet. If it does, game over! Off to
the train store you go to buy a new turnout!

Allan

Walthers DCC turnouts

ecollins10
 

Question, I am not sure where to attach the feeder wires to these
switches. Do you solder wire to the hole in the rivets of the point rails
or to the botton of one rail a and b? Just needed clarification.

Re: tortoise switch machine wiring

Doug Stuard <dstuard@...>
 

No. The Tortoise serves as the resistor.

Doug Stuard


--- In WiringForDCC@..., "garyfaz" <gdefazio@r...> wrote:

I want to use a bi-polor led panel indicator the way the
instructions
sheet that came with the switch machine show. my question is, do i
need
a current limiting restor for the led?

tortoise switch machine wiring

garyfaz <gdefazio@...>
 

I want to use a bi-polor led panel indicator the way the instructions
sheet that came with the switch machine show. my question is, do i need
a current limiting restor for the led?

Re: Terminating busses

Earl T. Hackett <hackete1@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: wirefordcc
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 11:03 AM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Re: Terminating busses


Earl,

You have done what I have done - located my boosters near the district
they power.

Actually I hadn't, but it's going to happen as part of this rewiring project. My only concern is with 50 or so lines going out to various blocks, all those termination caps could over compensate the signal. I only have a 20 MHz analog scope and I don't know if it's up to looking at such detail.

Re: Terminating busses

wirefordcc <wire4dcc_admin@...>
 

Earl,

We have two people who have a lot of experience with twisting buses
and terminations. I suspect they are both on vacation this week. If
they are not too swamped when they get back, maybe you will hear from
them next week.

You have done what I have done - located my boosters near the district
they power.

While you could figure booster need based on wiring length, I don't
think you need to do so in most cases. Twisting and adding
terminations allow you to go greater distances. Even if you hold to
30' maximum, if you put the booster in the middle of a district, that
means that district can be 60' long. That suits most people.

Allan

Re: Need basic info regarding switches for Bachmann DCC

wirefordcc <wire4dcc_admin@...>
 

John,

You found the Wiring For DCC Q&A Forum. Hopefully that means you
found the WIring For DCC website. It is at www.WiringForDCC.com.
It includes a section for beginners as well as other information you
should find useful.

The DCC device that can control turnouts is called an accessory
decoder or a stationary decoder. These are made by many of the
major DCC equipment manufacturers. You do not have to use one made
by the manufacturer of your command station. However, there may be
programming issues if you use one made by another manufacturer. So
be sure to ask and know how you will program it before buying.

You mentioned you have a Bachmann system. I don't have any
experience with the Bachmann system. You do have to be careful that
many of the starter systems cannot control turnouts. You need to
resolve this issue before doing anything else.

Just because you control your locomotives with DCC, does not mean
you have to use DCC to control your turnouts. Many, if not most,
modelers do not use DCC to control your turnouts. For one thing, it
costs about $15 to $30 extra per turnout to use DCC. This
understandably scares away many modelers. I personally use DCC to
control my mainline turnouts, but do it the old-fashioned way for
all others. In my case, using DCC turnout control with position
feedback gives my dispatcher control of the mainline. To operate my
industries there is no advantage to using DCC to control the
turnouts so I don't.

Allan

Re: Need basic info regarding switches for Bachmann DCC

JOHN <jcebay@...>
 

hi
Very briefly I use a Lenz LS150 (DECODER) to power a Peco PL10 switch
machine. The LS150 gets its information from the track and sends power to
the PL10. I feed the LS150 with 16v from a separate transformer. The LS150
does not support feedback but will power up to six switches. Hope that
helps........John

-----Original Message-----
From: WiringForDCC@...
[mailto:WiringForDCC@...]On Behalf Of Jamie Driscoll
Sent: 30 December 2005 13:03
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Re: Need basic info regarding switches for
Bachmann DCC


I recently got into HO train hobby this past holiday so many of my
questions are very fundemental. Im at a point which I have my track set
up on a 5 x 8 board and I have a handle on the DCC engines.

1) What I need now is to hook up the switches to something to send
juice to them and then send a line to the DCC Command controller. The 3
sets I picked up did not have anything in them to send juice to the
switches. What type of mechanism (particular name so I can search for
it) would I need to run the wires from the switches and then route to
the Command control to allow for is to switch from the Bachman
controller.

I thank anyone one in advance for responding to my question.








http://www.WiringForDCC.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: Need basic info regarding switches for Bachmann DCC

Jamie Driscoll <jj-driscoll@...>
 

I recently got into HO train hobby this past holiday so many of my
questions are very fundemental. Im at a point which I have my track set
up on a 5 x 8 board and I have a handle on the DCC engines.

1) What I need now is to hook up the switches to something to send
juice to them and then send a line to the DCC Command controller. The 3
sets I picked up did not have anything in them to send juice to the
switches. What type of mechanism (particular name so I can search for
it) would I need to run the wires from the switches and then route to
the Command control to allow for is to switch from the Bachman
controller.

I thank anyone one in advance for responding to my question.

Terminating busses

Earl T. Hackett <hackete1@...>
 

Well, I managed to answer most of my questions pretty quickly once I
looked up the specification for the booster wiring.

The boosters can be placed at any distance from the command station so:

- The heavy distribution busses are gone as of about 15 minutes ago.
- The boosters will be moved to the various power distribution panels
and will be used to power all track in that general area - EB, WB, or
yard.
- A 4th booster will be purchased and used for the staging tracks
which are located in another room.
- Since I've only rewired only a couple of blocks, they'll be pulled
out, the bus wires twisted, and an RC filter placed at the end.

Twisting the pairs also helps find the wire pair supplying the block
if I ever need to track them down again.

Any problem with the above changes??

It seems that we should be describing the number of boosters required
based on the length of the power runs rather than on the amperage
required to drive the anticipated power requirements of the operating
locomotives.

Bus design and termination

Earl T. Hackett <hackete1@...>
 

On the EasyDCC group I ran into a reference to Allen Gartner's web
site in response to another member's question. There I found
confirmation of waveform distortion problems I suspected from first
hearing about DCC. Right now I'm in the middle of a big (REALLY
BIG) rewiring job. To simplify trouble shooting and trackwork
modifications, the trackage is being broken into smaller sections
(20' to 30' with no more than 4 turnouts) that are individually fed
through DPDT toggle switches mounted on three local power
distribution panels. Sections of track that are signaled and
interlocked with the turnouts have their block detectors located in
an array directly adjacent to the power distribution panel. Most of
the local distribution wiring doesn't exceed 30' in length
(including the rails). However, getting the power from the boosters
to these distribution panels currently uses 12 ga. 2 conductor wire,
one with a length of 80'.

All the wiring is easily accessable so it would not be difficult to
pull out these heavy distribution wires, twist them, and put them
back in place. Currently one of these serves two local distribution
panels, one about 25' along and the other at the end of the 80'
run.

Q1: Currently each local panel distributes power from all of the 3
boosters; EB and WB main, and yards. Would it be preferable to have
a booster supply a single local panel and have heavy twisted busses
running to each local panel? I'm looking into the possibility of
moving the boosters from their central location to the distribution
panels, but then I have to make sure the signal being supplied to
them has not been distorted.

Q2: The local distribution busses from the toggle switches to the
track are essentially impossible to twist as there is a wire drop
from every piece of rail. Although they aren't very long, there are
a lot of them - about 50 blocks. Would there be a problem placing
an RC termination on all 50 local busses?

Q3: Assuming I run individual twisted main busses from a booster to
the local panels, should there be an RC filter at the end of the
twisted pair or should these RC filters be restricted to the most
distant point of the various local busses?

This is not what I consider fun so I really want to get it right so
I don't have to go back for another dose. Thanks for the help.

Programming Track

Michael Langford
 

Anyone got a simple diagram for a programming track that I want to still use
as a spur?

Mike

Re: DecoderPro

jondavis76051 <jondavis76051@...>
 

Is anyone using DecoderPro for setting up your decoders? If so can
I use
the PR1 and the small portable programming box/track I built with it
or do I
need to purchase what they recommend to use with it? Just curious...
I see nobody has responded to your question. Check out the following
Yahoo group for discussions of DecoderPro.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jmriusers/

Jon

Re: Peco Setrack 100 for DCC

Dianna Lee Sharps <diannaleesharps@...>
 

Colin,
Your quite right. The layout is the Jerome & Southwestern by John
Olson. The original plan is from 1983 and a lot of the parts are no
longer available, the Atlas double radius switches being the big
problem. They worked out between a number 4 & 5 and the Peco Setrack
was the next best thing I could locate. I have a 2-4-2 that makes
it ok but I've found that if the wheels arn't perfect you'll catch
the frog. I'm going to see if I can fit the Peco double radius but I
don't really want to re-lay half the layout.

Dianna Lee


--- In WiringForDCC@..., Colin Riley <cptracks@y...>
wrote:

Setrack is supposed to be Peco's version of snaptrack. I have used
some Setrack turnouts and they were insulfrog. To be honest I also
took them all out. They have a sharper radius than the normal Peco
units and I thought I could use them in my industrial areas plus one
area on the main where a sharper radius would really be a benefit
(so I thought, first layout with very limited room, can you tell?).
They worked fine for 4 axle diesels and most 6 axles, but Lord have
mercy when I tried to run steam through the inside track. They are
gone, gone, gone. I lost some room and trackage I really wanted, but
the trade was worth it to me. I guess it all depends on what you
want to do.
Colin

wirefordcc <wire4dcc_admin@c...> wrote:
Dianna,

I've never heard of the Peco Settrack. If I am understanding the
description of your problem, it sounds like the rails leaving the
frog
need insulated joiners on them. This would make the Settrack like
the
Peco Electrofrog. The Electrofrog is on my website at:
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_peco.htm#a2

Give the insulated joiners a try and see if that solves your
problem.
There is no risk in you trying this. It won't harm anything if
this
is wrong.

Allan






http://www.WiringForDCC.com



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Peco Setrack 100 for DCC

cptracks
 

Setrack is supposed to be Peco's version of snaptrack. I have used some Setrack turnouts and they were insulfrog. To be honest I also took them all out. They have a sharper radius than the normal Peco units and I thought I could use them in my industrial areas plus one area on the main where a sharper radius would really be a benefit (so I thought, first layout with very limited room, can you tell?). They worked fine for 4 axle diesels and most 6 axles, but Lord have mercy when I tried to run steam through the inside track. They are gone, gone, gone. I lost some room and trackage I really wanted, but the trade was worth it to me. I guess it all depends on what you want to do.
Colin

wirefordcc <wire4dcc_admin@...> wrote:
Dianna,

I've never heard of the Peco Settrack. If I am understanding the
description of your problem, it sounds like the rails leaving the frog
need insulated joiners on them. This would make the Settrack like the
Peco Electrofrog. The Electrofrog is on my website at:
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_peco.htm#a2

Give the insulated joiners a try and see if that solves your problem.
There is no risk in you trying this. It won't harm anything if this
is wrong.

Allan






http://www.WiringForDCC.com



SPONSORED LINKS
Lionel model train European model trains Model railroads Ho scale model train Ho model trains Model train n scale

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Re: Feeder Tester

wirefordcc <wire4dcc_admin@...>
 

Probably the best tool that your feeders are adequate costs 25
cents. Yes, I'm talking about using a quarter. If your booster
shorts out promptly when you place a quarter across your rails, you
are good to go. You can use a screwdriver or a pair of pliers,
too. This is a test everyone should run when through hooking up
feeders. It really is a good indication of the quality of your
connections.

If you are worried about the data being corrupted, after your short
test, try a locomotive with a decoder in it.

If you are worried about excessive voltage or ringing on your track,
try building the ultra simple circuits I describe in my website
at: http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track.htm#a4 or buying a DCC meter
from Tony's Train Exchange.

I've never needed anything else. And after successful testing with
a quarter, things have always worked for me.

Allan