Date   
Re: RETURN LOOPS

Earl T. Hackett <hackete1@...>
 

Everyone has their favorite way of handling this. Some just use the techniques that work with DC control. Some use reversing boosters that sense the short and instantly reverse phase on the reverse section to eliminate it. You can find a relay technique I developed for my staging area in the files section that also creates a dead section behind the train so another incoming train can't rear end it. If desired, this technique can also get the job done with only 7' or 8' of track regardless of how long the train is. Motive power can exit the reverse section while metal wheeled cars will not cause a short at the entrance.

----- Original Message -----
From: Ray Freeman
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 11:41 PM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] RETURN LOOPS


I'm relatively clueless about the electrical end of model trains...my
caveat lead in to the question.

What is a reasonable way to handle the reversing polarity issues on a
return loop (as opposed to a reversing)? I am aiming at DCC control
for the locos, and a mixture of manual and standard electrical throw
turnouts (no DCC turnout control or block signals anticipated at this
time). I have a Tony's TE
PSRev on order.

Here's a pic of the partial layout. Any help would be appreciated.

Ray









http://www.WiringForDCC.com



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Re: reverse loop

Earl T. Hackett <hackete1@...>
 

The DCC signal is a square wave with equal + and - voltage cycles. The decoder doesn't care about the polarity, or more correctly the phase of the signal. The boosters however have sensing circuitry that will detect a short, even if it lasts only a microsecond, and shut down. There's enough power in most boosters that without short detection they could start a fire. That's why there is frequent talk about 'DCC friendly' turnouts that have rails electrified in a way than minimizes the chance of a short, auto reversing boosters that switch phase quicker than the power booster can sense a short, and various other schemes to handle reverse loops, etc.

----- Original Message -----
From: starvingartist49
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 1:15 PM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] reverse loop


I am new to the list. My layout is still basically at the end of the
design phase although I have purchased some materials and started
construction. I plan to use DCC although I have little experience
with it. I am hoping to learn from this list so that by the time I
get around to wiring I will have a basic understanding of how things
work.
I thought I was "getting it" but a recent post left me rather
confused. It was my understanding that one of the benefits of DCC is
that the decoder will figure out the polarity of the track on its
own.
For example say I am going around a loop and the left rail
changes from positive to negative after an insulated joiner. Doesn't
the decoder adjust for this automatically to keep the locomotive
moving forward?
I guess I don't understand the need for a reverser unit. I
thought this was a feature of the decoder unit.
Perhaps I misunderstood the question which may have been posted
before I joined the list.
I would appreciate it if anyone could clear this up for me.
Thank you,
Jawno







http://www.WiringForDCC.com



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Re: Can't print website

jerryglow2
 

If you do it as frames, I believe you should be able to call out and
print just the desired one. I know I do that frequently on the STMFC
list.

Jerry Glow

--- In WiringForDCC@..., "wirefordcc"
<wire4dcc_admin@c...> wrote:

I just experimented to with moving the menu bar on the left over
to
the right side. For a printed version of my website, you don't
really
need that menu bar. It worked and wasn't too painful to move.
Check
it out at: http://www.wiringfordcc.com/blockdet.htm

Over time, I'll move the others over. If you have specific
requests,
please let me know. I'm busy with school and probably won't be
moving
a lot of them any time soon.

Allan

reverse loop

starvingartist49 <starvingartist49@...>
 

I am new to the list. My layout is still basically at the end of the
design phase although I have purchased some materials and started
construction. I plan to use DCC although I have little experience
with it. I am hoping to learn from this list so that by the time I
get around to wiring I will have a basic understanding of how things
work.
I thought I was "getting it" but a recent post left me rather
confused. It was my understanding that one of the benefits of DCC is
that the decoder will figure out the polarity of the track on its
own.
For example say I am going around a loop and the left rail
changes from positive to negative after an insulated joiner. Doesn't
the decoder adjust for this automatically to keep the locomotive
moving forward?
I guess I don't understand the need for a reverser unit. I
thought this was a feature of the decoder unit.
Perhaps I misunderstood the question which may have been posted
before I joined the list.
I would appreciate it if anyone could clear this up for me.
Thank you,
Jawno

Re: Can't print website

wirefordcc <wire4dcc_admin@...>
 

I just experimented to with moving the menu bar on the left over to
the right side. For a printed version of my website, you don't really
need that menu bar. It worked and wasn't too painful to move. Check
it out at: http://www.wiringfordcc.com/blockdet.htm

Over time, I'll move the others over. If you have specific requests,
please let me know. I'm busy with school and probably won't be moving
a lot of them any time soon.

Allan

RETURN LOOPS

Ray Freeman <rayfreeman3@...>
 

I'm relatively clueless about the electrical end of model trains...my
caveat lead in to the question.

What is a reasonable way to handle the reversing polarity issues on a
return loop (as opposed to a reversing)? I am aiming at DCC control
for the locos, and a mixture of manual and standard electrical throw
turnouts (no DCC turnout control or block signals anticipated at this
time). I have a Tony's TE
PSRev on order.

Here's a pic of the partial layout. Any help would be appreciated.

Ray

DCC loco acting up

kgrimes411
 

Hi all...new here, but in the hobby for 30+ years... :) BRAND NEW to
DCC (as in yesterday!)

Anyway, I just finished laying the track for our new N layout and had
been testing all along with a regular DC powerpack for continuity. All
is well (soldered the track joints). But when I hook up the DCC (MRC
Prodigy Express), the DCC loco acts as though the track is dirty.
Needs me to "help it along" to get started. Then once it's going, it
doesn't respond to commands from the cab. Any idea if this is a
symptom of a loco problem or cab/controller unit or what?

Thanks!

Kevin

Re: DCC <- DPDT -> DC

Doug Stuard <dstuard@...>
 

Yup, classic two cab block control sytem. Just connect DCC in place
of one cab and switch the appropriate blocks over.

Doug Stuard
NVNTRAK

--- In WiringForDCC@..., Mark Gurries <gurriesm@c...>
wrote:

Hello everyone,

I am new to the forum and have a couple of questions which I
will
submit serparately.

Is it possible to bring the DCC track leads to one side of a DPDT
switch and DC to the other side so that if friends come over to run
and
bring their DC engines they can run with the flip of a few switches?
Yes this can be done and is VERY often how many people experimented
with
DCC.

In your case, it appears that you only have one DC throttle for the
layout. Hence using a simple DPDT Center-off switch to flip
between DC
throttle and DCC would be an excellent solution.

People with DC layout and more than one DC throttle have done the
same
thing by replace one of the DC throttles with a DCC system as a way
to
experiment with the operation and feel of the DCC system. When the
switch to DCC, the set every track block switch to connect with the
DCC
system and go.

If you have a reverse loop or wye, the manual control switch that
worked
for DC will work just fine for DCC to.

I do not think the discussion about autoreverser is applicable here
since you appear to be converting a DC only layout. An Autoreverse
is a
DCC accessory the automate and eliminate the electrical issues
relating
to reverse loop operation from an ELECTRICAL PIONT OF VIEW. No
need to
stop the train at the double insulated joints to check the polarity
of
the switches. HOWEVER, You will STILL need to flip the track switch
itself.

I hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Linear Technology
Power Supply & Battery Charger Applications Engineer/Manager
---------------------------------------------------------
Model Railroad Club and NMRA DCC presentations are at:
http://www.siliconvalleylines.com/index.html
--------------------------------------------------------
Audio Enthusiast (Love SAE equipment)
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/gurriesm/
----------------------------------------------------------

Re: DCC <- DPDT -> DC

Mark Gurries
 

Hello everyone,

I am new to the forum and have a couple of questions which I will
submit serparately.

Is it possible to bring the DCC track leads to one side of a DPDT
switch and DC to the other side so that if friends come over to run and
bring their DC engines they can run with the flip of a few switches?
Yes this can be done and is VERY often how many people experimented with
DCC.

In your case, it appears that you only have one DC throttle for the
layout. Hence using a simple DPDT Center-off switch to flip between DC
throttle and DCC would be an excellent solution.

People with DC layout and more than one DC throttle have done the same
thing by replace one of the DC throttles with a DCC system as a way to
experiment with the operation and feel of the DCC system. When the
switch to DCC, the set every track block switch to connect with the DCC
system and go.

If you have a reverse loop or wye, the manual control switch that worked
for DC will work just fine for DCC to.

I do not think the discussion about autoreverser is applicable here
since you appear to be converting a DC only layout. An Autoreverse is a
DCC accessory the automate and eliminate the electrical issues relating
to reverse loop operation from an ELECTRICAL PIONT OF VIEW. No need to
stop the train at the double insulated joints to check the polarity of
the switches. HOWEVER, You will STILL need to flip the track switch
itself.

I hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Linear Technology
Power Supply & Battery Charger Applications Engineer/Manager
---------------------------------------------------------
Model Railroad Club and NMRA DCC presentations are at:
http://www.siliconvalleylines.com/index.html
--------------------------------------------------------
Audio Enthusiast (Love SAE equipment)
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/gurriesm/
----------------------------------------------------------

Re: DCC Wiring

jmscnw <jmscnw@...>
 

Earl,

I agree with you. I enjoy lever pulling and button pushing.
Too much "automatic" is boring !


I remain very confused as to why it is such a good idea to control
switches with the DCC system. With the total freedom to walk around
the layout with wireless controllers I have found simple manual throws
to be far superior to any electrical or electronic contraption I could
imagine. Maybe someone can explain why they view this form of switch
control to be so attractive.

Re: DCC <- DPDT -> DC layout explanation

David <frazeedg@...>
 

Thanks for the responses. Maybe a litle explanation of the layout
might help.

One outside loop isolated from the inner loop using insulators.

One inside loop isolated from the outside loop and the yards, etc.
using insulators.

I only have one DCC engine which would run on the outside loop, but I
would like to be able to move it into the engine house in the center
of the layout accomplished by isolating the DC engines and using the
DPDT switches.

This way I have control over which areas of the layout are DC versus
DCC. Someday I plan that all my engines will be DCC, but until
then ...

--- In WiringForDCC@..., "David" <frazeedg@g...> wrote:

Hello everyone,

I am new to the forum and have a coup-le of questions which I will
submit serparately.

Is it possible to bring the DCC track leads to one side of a DPDT
switch and DC to teh other side so that if friends come over to run
and
bring their DC engines they can run with the flip of a few switches?

Thanks

David
frazeedg@g...

Re: DCC <- DPDT -> DC

Earl T. Hackett <hackete1@...>
 

Yes, it is possible, but I suggest you wait for a response from Wayne Roderick before getting out the soldering iron. If done incorrectly, you'll let the magic smoke out of a lot of electronic components.

----- Original Message -----
From: David
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 5:30 PM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] DCC <- DPDT -> DC


Hello everyone,

I am new to the forum and have a coup-le of questions which I will
submit separately.

Is it possible to bring the DCC track leads to one side of a DPDT
switch and DC to the other side so that if friends come over to run and
bring their DC engines they can run with the flip of a few switches?

Thanks

David
frazeedg@...






http://www.WiringForDCC.com



SPONSORED LINKS Lionel model train European model trains Model railroads
Ho scale model train Ho model trains Model train n scale


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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a.. Visit your group "WiringForDCC" on the web.

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Re: DCC <- DPDT -> DC

jerryglow2
 

One big problem is with reversing loops. RVCs (reverse loop
controlers) don't like DC. However lacking any, that is essentially
what many do when converting over to DCC - throw all block selectors
to the one on which the DCC is wired.

Jerry Glow

--- In WiringForDCC@..., "David" <frazeedg@g...> wrote:

Hello everyone,

I am new to the forum and have a couple of questions which I will
submit serparately.

Is it possible to bring the DCC track leads to one side of a DPDT
switch and DC to the other side so that if friends come over to
run and
bring their DC engines they can run with the flip of a few
switches?

Thanks

David
frazeedg@g...

Re: interlocking

jerryglow2
 

That's an excellent point but this will be DCC. The lower level is
essentially for staging so depending on the number of operators and
trains running at one time, all this might be a moot point. But like I
said, better plan for the worst case scenario (heavy traffic).

Jerry Glow

--- In WiringForDCC@..., "Earl T. Hackett" <hackete1@c...>
wrote:

If this was DC, you could use a multi layer rotary switch to allow
power to only one route and diodes to allow travel in only one
direction. DCC is much more like the prototype with all the inherent
problems they have been working through for the last 150 years.
Earl

DCC <- DPDT -> DC

David <frazeedg@...>
 

Hello everyone,

I am new to the forum and have a coup-le of questions which I will
submit serparately.

Is it possible to bring the DCC track leads to one side of a DPDT
switch and DC to teh other side so that if friends come over to run and
bring their DC engines they can run with the flip of a few switches?

Thanks

David
frazeedg@...

Re: interlocking

Earl T. Hackett <hackete1@...>
 

If this was DC, you could use a multi layer rotary switch to allow power to only one route and diodes to allow travel in only one direction. DCC is much more like the prototype with all the inherent problems they have been working through for the last 150 years.

----- Original Message -----
From: jerryglow2
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 4:09 PM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Re: interlocking


It wouldn't if wired like I wired one for an all rail crossing I
made once. I guess if I wanted all leads independent, I could add
toggle switches also somewhat like people do when using a rotary for
cab selection or just have them all toggle switch controlled. I wish
I could predict how often (if ever) trains would be heading thru at
opposite directions. It's best to prepare for the worst since it
will be hidden and little chance to do anything about it when
covered.

Jerry Glow

--- In WiringForDCC@..., "Earl T. Hackett"
<hackete1@c...> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure how it would avoid the occasional head on collision.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gerald Glow
> To: Mark Gurries ; WiringForDCC@...
> Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 9:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Re: interlocking
>
>
> I think I wrote Earl Hackett but not the list suggesting I could
wire
> a couple feet of all 4 tracks going into the crossing thru a
rotary switch
> thus create a manual interlock. Probably not very "elegant" but
it should
> work.
>
>
>
>
>







http://www.WiringForDCC.com



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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a.. Visit your group "WiringForDCC" on the web.

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Re: interlocking

jerryglow2
 

It wouldn't if wired like I wired one for an all rail crossing I
made once. I guess if I wanted all leads independent, I could add
toggle switches also somewhat like people do when using a rotary for
cab selection or just have them all toggle switch controlled. I wish
I could predict how often (if ever) trains would be heading thru at
opposite directions. It's best to prepare for the worst since it
will be hidden and little chance to do anything about it when
covered.

Jerry Glow

--- In WiringForDCC@..., "Earl T. Hackett"
<hackete1@c...> wrote:

I'm not sure how it would avoid the occasional head on collision.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gerald Glow
To: Mark Gurries ; WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Re: interlocking


I think I wrote Earl Hackett but not the list suggesting I could
wire
a couple feet of all 4 tracks going into the crossing thru a
rotary switch
thus create a manual interlock. Probably not very "elegant" but
it should
work.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: interlocking

Earl T. Hackett <hackete1@...>
 

I'm not sure how it would avoid the occasional head on collision.

----- Original Message -----
From: Gerald Glow
To: Mark Gurries ; WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Re: interlocking


I think I wrote Earl Hackett but not the list suggesting I could wire
a couple feet of all 4 tracks going into the crossing thru a rotary switch
thus create a manual interlock. Probably not very "elegant" but it should
work.

Re: interlocking

Doug Stuard <dstuard@...>
 

Maybe if he ran only flat cars and gondolas???


--- In WiringForDCC@..., "Gerald Glow" <jerryglow@c...>
wrote:

Aah the beauty of a layout design program - 3D PlanIt in my case.
I was able
to test Mark's suggestion and as ingenious as it is, there would
be a
clearance problem with the new track as it crosses over the tracks
in the
loop to the left side because the upper level main is above those
tracks.
I've made his sketch available to view
http://home.comcast.net/~jerryglow/files/Jerrys_lower.jpg but as
is won't
work. I think I wrote Earl Hackett but not the list suggesting I
could wire
a couple feet of all 4 tracks going into the crossing thru a
rotary switch
thus create a manual interlock. Probably not very "elegant" but it
should
work.

Jerry Glow

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Gurries" <gurriesm@c...>
To: <WiringForDCC@...>; <jerryglow@c...>
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Re: interlocking


"Doug Stuard" wrote:

Hi Jerry,

What I would do (=<<$0.02) would be to relocate (slightly) the
ramp
going up and to the right to the INSIDE of the staging tracks and
have
it cross above the right hand staging loops at the far right side,
thereby eliminating the need for an at-grade crossing in the rear
of the
layout. The turnouts will still be there, but the whole
interlocking
issue would be avoided.


The at grade crossing was a way to equalize and minimize grades.
There will be access/view panels along the facia and if I'm the
only
one (or one of two) operators there shouldn't be any problem. But
you always want to design for that one case...

Jerry Glow
I think Doug is on the right track but the wrong side due to the
grade
run length. However, the run on the left side has the POTENTIAL
to be
much longer which we can take advantage of...

See crudely edited drawing of Jerry's called Lower1a.jpg I do not
think
anyone on the "WiringforDCC" list will get this
picture...Attachments
are rejected...but Jerry should since I am ALSO addressing him
directly
at the same time...

On the left side of the drawing, you have a track spiralling
down. What
I would do is continue the spiral a bit more such that the angle
permits
it to cross over the green loop of tracks while it is still at
sufficient elevation to clear the green tracks. In other words,
the
spire does not have much grade in it at first till it get over the
track. No with the track having cleared the green track no drops
down
on the inside (isle side) and ramps down. But instead of
connecting
back in at the current crossing location..it run longer on the
straight
way and cuts back in on the green track before is starts to make
the
right curve that accesses the other loop of track.

Positives:

1) Total grade will be less compared to the other line but you
might be
able to extend that other grade line a foot or more down the line
to
ease it a bit too!

2) The grade will be eased on the curve..a grade compensated curve.
This will really help trains get up the grade. I bet it will be
easier
than the other grade!

3) Eliminates the grade crossing and collision potential all
together.

Negatives:

1) The track will block a lot of access to the other track and
switches
behind it. One crazy solution for that would be to have the long
straight section (that contains the grade) mounted on a long shelf
that
when unlocked, can be flipped down and out towards the isle to gain
access to all those tracks and switches in the back. Use a long
piano
hinge and use plywood construction to minimize dimensional shifts
with
humidity and temperatures.

2) Have no idea about upper level clearances.

Anyway that my brainstorm idea...crazy huh?

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Linear Technology
Power Supply & Battery Charger Applications Engineer/Manager
---------------------------------------------------------
Model Railroad Club and NMRA DCC presentations are at:
http://www.siliconvalleylines.com/index.html
--------------------------------------------------------
Audio Enthusiast (Love SAE equipment)
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/gurriesm/
----------------------------------------------------------

Re: interlocking

jerryglow2
 

Aah the beauty of a layout design program - 3D PlanIt in my case. I was able to test Mark's suggestion and as ingenious as it is, there would be a clearance problem with the new track as it crosses over the tracks in the loop to the left side because the upper level main is above those tracks. I've made his sketch available to view http://home.comcast.net/~jerryglow/files/Jerrys_lower.jpg but as is won't work. I think I wrote Earl Hackett but not the list suggesting I could wire a couple feet of all 4 tracks going into the crossing thru a rotary switch thus create a manual interlock. Probably not very "elegant" but it should work.

Jerry Glow

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Gurries" <gurriesm@...>
To: <WiringForDCC@...>; <jerryglow@...>
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Re: interlocking


"Doug Stuard" wrote:

Hi Jerry,

What I would do (=<<$0.02) would be to relocate (slightly) the ramp
going up and to the right to the INSIDE of the staging tracks and have
it cross above the right hand staging loops at the far right side,
thereby eliminating the need for an at-grade crossing in the rear of the
layout. The turnouts will still be there, but the whole interlocking
issue would be avoided.


The at grade crossing was a way to equalize and minimize grades.
There will be access/view panels along the facia and if I'm the only
one (or one of two) operators there shouldn't be any problem. But
you always want to design for that one case...

Jerry Glow
I think Doug is on the right track but the wrong side due to the grade
run length. However, the run on the left side has the POTENTIAL to be
much longer which we can take advantage of...

See crudely edited drawing of Jerry's called Lower1a.jpg I do not think
anyone on the "WiringforDCC" list will get this picture...Attachments
are rejected...but Jerry should since I am ALSO addressing him directly
at the same time...

On the left side of the drawing, you have a track spiralling down. What
I would do is continue the spiral a bit more such that the angle permits
it to cross over the green loop of tracks while it is still at
sufficient elevation to clear the green tracks. In other words, the
spire does not have much grade in it at first till it get over the
track. No with the track having cleared the green track no drops down
on the inside (isle side) and ramps down. But instead of connecting
back in at the current crossing location..it run longer on the straight
way and cuts back in on the green track before is starts to make the
right curve that accesses the other loop of track.

Positives:

1) Total grade will be less compared to the other line but you might be
able to extend that other grade line a foot or more down the line to
ease it a bit too!

2) The grade will be eased on the curve..a grade compensated curve.
This will really help trains get up the grade. I bet it will be easier
than the other grade!

3) Eliminates the grade crossing and collision potential all together.

Negatives:

1) The track will block a lot of access to the other track and switches
behind it. One crazy solution for that would be to have the long
straight section (that contains the grade) mounted on a long shelf that
when unlocked, can be flipped down and out towards the isle to gain
access to all those tracks and switches in the back. Use a long piano
hinge and use plywood construction to minimize dimensional shifts with
humidity and temperatures.

2) Have no idea about upper level clearances.

Anyway that my brainstorm idea...crazy huh?

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Linear Technology
Power Supply & Battery Charger Applications Engineer/Manager
---------------------------------------------------------
Model Railroad Club and NMRA DCC presentations are at:
http://www.siliconvalleylines.com/index.html
--------------------------------------------------------
Audio Enthusiast (Love SAE equipment)
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/gurriesm/
----------------------------------------------------------