Date   
PSX-AR wiring question

John Cahill
 

I thought I had sent this message but somehow it got lost (I think) so here goes again. I had a simple though fairly large layout (45' X 8') consisting of two high level and two low level loops both fed from NCE PowerPro through 3 PSX Circuit Breakers, one each level and one for accessories. The levels do not connect, or did not until my latest addition. Tortoise PMs on all 42 points, which are all Peco Electrofrog. Frogs all switch polarity through built in Tortoise switches.
I recently deconstructed a large station from a previous layout and joined it into the existing layout such that it now sits at an intermediate level and joins the two existing levels such that trains can move from one level to another and pass through the additional station in either direction. The connection to both levels is done through two double track Wyes, one above the other and requiring 18 new points.  This allows any train from any direction cross to any track at either level.  Obviously this is a complex piece of trackwork and has brought about a need for Auto-Reversers.  One leg on the lower Wye is long and easily meets the length requirement of being able to take a full length train in its entirety.  However, the higher Wye fails in this respect. 

I have several PSX-AR's and I have read and tried to fully understand the instructions. In "Notes in Section E, Page 7", on wiring examples, it states:

2) If your train is longer than your reverse block and has metal wheels:a) You may need to cut additional gaps in the REVERSE SECTION. b) Simply cut another set of gaps at BOTH ENDS of the reverse sections inside of the original gaps.c) The distance between new gaps and original gaps should be longer than the wheelbase of any metal truck.
Unfortunately, I cannot see how these newly created sections are powered.  I would appreciate any input which would allow me circumvent this difficulty as it is not possible to create a sufficiently long leg anywhere in this particular Wye due to space constraints and the number of points involved. 
Regards,
John

 

 

Re: PSX-AR Installation Query

David Klemm
 

Bill,

Because you can’t have the train across 2 sections and trying to go in to a 3rd. There would be no way for the PSX-AR to flip to the correct polarity. 

Sometimes it helps to draw these out using a red pen for one rail and black for the other. Then you can see the fight that will occur. 

David Klemm
11 PRO Max


From: w4dccqa@groups.io <w4dccqa@groups.io> on behalf of mgj21932 via Groups.Io <mgj21932@...>
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 8:00:55 AM
To: w4dccqa@groups.io <w4dccqa@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] PSX-AR Installation Query
 
John,
I am a novice at DCC and haven’t found an explanation for the limitation you describe regarding the length of an AR segment needing to be longer than the longest train.  I’ve read that too, but haven’t seen an explanation for why.  Do you know?  
Bill


On Jan 20, 2020, at 8:53 AM, John Cahill <johncahill25@...> wrote:



I have been adding a large extension to my layout (DCC HO) which sits between what were independent and unconnected High level and Low level loops with great each having a station and fiddle yard. I have created two Wyes, one above the other and both double track, with a very complex point system to allow any train from the new section cross onto any track on both levels of the original layout. However complex pointwork takes a lot of space and I now find I am constrained by one of the stipulations regarding auto-reversers in tray the AR section should be longer than the longest train. 

one one end of the new module, a long length of track leads into the Wye so no problem with that side. However on the second level Wye, there simply isn’t enough length to achieve a satisfactory length. Then, reading the PSX-AR Instructions hoping for inspiration I read on p.7 Section E Notes, that it is possible to use a short length of track provided one cuts ADDITIONAL gaps inside the AR gaps longer than any bogies which would be used on this AR section. My problem is that it doesn’t say (that I can see) how to wire these new sections. I would be grateful if anyone can illuminate my darkness in this as I don’t see another solution to my space constraints. 

Thanks in advance 
John Cahill 

Re: PSX-AR Installation Query

mgj21932
 

John,
I am a novice at DCC and haven’t found an explanation for the limitation you describe regarding the length of an AR segment needing to be longer than the longest train.  I’ve read that too, but haven’t seen an explanation for why.  Do you know?  
Bill


On Jan 20, 2020, at 8:53 AM, John Cahill <johncahill25@...> wrote:



I have been adding a large extension to my layout (DCC HO) which sits between what were independent and unconnected High level and Low level loops with great each having a station and fiddle yard. I have created two Wyes, one above the other and both double track, with a very complex point system to allow any train from the new section cross onto any track on both levels of the original layout. However complex pointwork takes a lot of space and I now find I am constrained by one of the stipulations regarding auto-reversers in tray the AR section should be longer than the longest train. 

one one end of the new module, a long length of track leads into the Wye so no problem with that side. However on the second level Wye, there simply isn’t enough length to achieve a satisfactory length. Then, reading the PSX-AR Instructions hoping for inspiration I read on p.7 Section E Notes, that it is possible to use a short length of track provided one cuts ADDITIONAL gaps inside the AR gaps longer than any bogies which would be used on this AR section. My problem is that it doesn’t say (that I can see) how to wire these new sections. I would be grateful if anyone can illuminate my darkness in this as I don’t see another solution to my space constraints. 

Thanks in advance 
John Cahill 

PSX-AR Installation Query

John Cahill
 

I have been adding a large extension to my layout (DCC HO) which sits between what were independent and unconnected High level and Low level loops with great each having a station and fiddle yard. I have created two Wyes, one above the other and both double track, with a very complex point system to allow any train from the new section cross onto any track on both levels of the original layout. However complex pointwork takes a lot of space and I now find I am constrained by one of the stipulations regarding auto-reversers in tray the AR section should be longer than the longest train. 

one one end of the new module, a long length of track leads into the Wye so no problem with that side. However on the second level Wye, there simply isn’t enough length to achieve a satisfactory length. Then, reading the PSX-AR Instructions hoping for inspiration I read on p.7 Section E Notes, that it is possible to use a short length of track provided one cuts ADDITIONAL gaps inside the AR gaps longer than any bogies which would be used on this AR section. My problem is that it doesn’t say (that I can see) how to wire these new sections. I would be grateful if anyone can illuminate my darkness in this as I don’t see another solution to my space constraints. 

Thanks in advance 
John Cahill 

Re: Converting to DCC

Pete
 

Clarification Mark, see the last photo I posted it contains dimensions.  My layout is 8' x 13' .  The opening in the center of the room "operators area" is the 32" x 70".

Re: Converting to DCC

Mark Gurries
 


On Jan 16, 2020, at 8:12 PM, Pete via Groups.Io <Kayakerpc@...> wrote:

Thanks Mark.

My train layout is HO scale. See new drawing with dimensions.

Max Engineers - The operating area is only 32" x 70" so at most 2 Engineers in the room.

So that is a 2.6ft x 5.8ft or simply about a 3 x 6 layout.  This sounds to small for what you want to do as described below.   Do you mean a 32 feet x 70 feet by chance?

Running Engines - 2 at most, others would be dummies.

So that works out to be two train with 2 motor engines each per train for a total of 4 motor locomotives Or 4 trains with 1 motor engine per train.  That is about the power limit of a PowerCab assuming the engines are internally modern locomotives with low current motors.   On a 3 x 6 you will not have any problem.  The trains cannot be that big and there is no room to run at any high speed.  You essentially have a switching layout.

I don't want to do the upgrade path. 
I want to buy the full wireless system from the start with a 5 amp power supply and one extra wireless controller

Understood.  You know you will have everything you need to be up and running wirelessly from the get go.

I maybe naive, I imagine with only 4 trains running, each on it's own loop or in the sub-yard/ramp, I should be able to manage the one that is switching around possibly if I have each on a separate handheld controller?

Yes you can have all the train on separate throttles and you can grab the throttle you need to control the given train.  Functionally that is not much better than using one single throttle to control two trains but it might be easier to understand at a higher $ cost.

NCE has throttles that can run more than one train.

Cab04e
Cab05
Cab06
PowerCab/ProCab

The Cab04e and Cab05 are no longer made but had a single physical toggle switch on the top of the throttle that allowed it instantly switch between two running trains.  Quick and easy to switch between trains.  Depending on which side the toggle switch is leaning tells you which train you are running.  If the train you are NOT running is having a problem, just hit the toggle switch and you will have instant control of the problem train.

The Cab06 and the PowerCab/Procab use a button called RECALL.  Recall is a "circular list" of engine numbers that you can jump to with a push of a button.  Each push of the button moves the throttle control to the next train/engine in the list until it comes back to the train/engine you started with and repeats.   By defualt the Recall button only support 2 trains emulating the quick switching of the Cab04e toggle switch between two trains.   Unlike an actual toggle switch, to know what train you are curently running you have to look at the throttle engine number on the display.  But if there are only two, just one push gets you control of the other train.  Just do not push the button multiple times in panic!

The recall list can be expanded up to 6 locomotives (Actual recall upper limit value depends on the NCE command station your are using).  So on a PowerPro system, the ProCab can run up to 6 trains.   But you will quickly find out that it next to impossible to manage.   Instead the purpose of more recalls is to allow you to have your favorite trains/engines easily selected without having to enter the train/engine numbers each time you switch to another train/engine.  So it not so much about running multiple trains but ease of switching between each train you want to run one at a time.



Pete

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Re: Converting to DCC

Ross Kudlick
 

An update to Al Silversdtien's book recommendation.

“Practical Guide to Digital Command Control” by Larry Puckett is now published by White River Productions;
https://shop.whiteriverproductions.com/products/crs-pdcc?_pos=1&_sid=c9a716d5a&_ss=r

When I Googled the title I found several used copies published by Carstens that were selling at premium prices. 

Ross Kudlick

Re: Converting to DCC

Mark Cartwright <marcdecapri@...>
 

Pete,
Good Luck in being able to do it "right the first time."
I did not.... Maybe.
I have owned at least 8 different DCC Control Systems, before eventually landing on the ESU ECoS; as the chosen one.
===
This is not to say I have bad things to say about Digitrax, NCE, MRC or even Bachmann....Just my requirements of eventually running two large layout Systems; through many rooms throughout my house and connecting both - via a Central Bridge (Operational) between them.
=====
Actually there are various features of all the systems I particularly like....
With that said and not wanting to start a Political nor Religious Debate....
> Just a Heads Up...
Before making a final decision, I simply suggest viewing this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApxjEciFr40
======
With that said and viewed
Here are a few more debatable concerns.....
1. Clean Track !!!
which means a Clean Room.
My last house has a Basement...and Attic where I had planned to run N Scale in the Basement and HO in the Attic...Oops!
The Attic is too hot in the Summer and the Basement has too much humidity.
Warped and a near need to constantly clean the track HAD been an issue till I bought a different house just over a year ago..
2. DCC Resets and Glitches between the Controller and Decoder....
I now believe in soldering nearly everything with a further second conductivity system of drop down leads to a Central Buss.
Part of this also includes....ESU LokSound Decoders to a paired ESU Matched Controller.
>>> Sorry, not sure how to explain this...but I have decoders which respond and act very differently between even my Digitrax Chief and Digitrax Zypher.
Someone may contradict what I just said...and say they have never experienced such a phenomenon....
However, just this past week I sold one of my favorite HO Scale Models for it contrains the Paragon Sound Systems which though they may even be ESU or ? = I have witnessed such Paragon Systems not working well with my ECoS but working perfectly well with my MRC DCC Systems.
========>. Once I decided on my primary DCC System....
IF !?!?!  a Decoder any Decoder even an ESU Decoder, doesn't want to get along with my ECoS ....Poor Decoder....I sell it or trade it away.
There are simply too many distractions into this Century which I simply do not need.
:)) Mark

PS..It Is very easy to control Four Separate DCC Controlled Locomotives with sound with one ECoS (Dual Controls) and two wireless controllers.

Re: Converting to DCC

Paul O
 

Pete,
For each reverser unit, connect the input side to the red/blue tracks; connect the output side to the green tracks.

The location of isolators B, C and D can be anywhere within their short arcs of track.

Paul O

Re: Converting to DCC

Al Silverstein
 

Paul,
 
Hardware recommendations are often a matter of personal taste. All DCC systems do one thing and that is control the direction, speed, lighting and sound functions where features of the engines and the DCC system overlap. There are as many recommendations on what to include when even considering the conversion from DC to DCC. Only you can determine what to purchase for the satisfaction of your needs to handle the DCC operations of your model railroading empire. I generally do not provide hardware recommendations on hardware until I have a basic understanding of the individual requesting information. The long term goals of an individual have a lot to do with recommendations.
 
“More” is not always better. “More” is only better if your long term plans include the “more”.
 
But there is one recommendation that I do profess to any one that is converting from DC to DCC and that is to purchase a good general purpose book dealing with the general application of DCC. The book should present general DCC information in an easy to understand format and yet at the same time avoid any bias towards or against specific manufacturers.
 
So with the above said I do recommend the book “Practical Guide to Digital Command Control” by Larry Puckett and published by Carstens’ Publishing.
 
After reading a book like I just mention you should be making a dream list of everything DCC related that you would like to eventually include in your model railroad empire and make your choices of hardware that will allow you to reach your goal.
 
There are a number of good resources on Groups.io that can help you solve the problems you will incur along the way. This list handles the wiring of side of the DCC for your layout.
 
Al Silverstein
 

From: Pete via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 1:02 PM
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: [w4dccqa] Converting to DCC
 
Hi,
I'm new to using this forum.
I have a DC layout that I want to convert to DCC so I'd like some help from the experts so I can do it right the first time.

I added a pic to the photo section under "Pete's layout".
My room is 8'x13',  with a swing gate to enter the room.
All rails are connected to a common 12g bus.
There are two isolated sections fo changing polarity.

What do I need to change to convert to DCC?

I'm considering using the NCE wireless system.
I want to be able to have 4 trains running at the same time.
I want to be able to have more train addressed and ready to swap in from the parking yard below my layout connected via a long perimeter ramp.
Hmm, What else do you need to know?

Re: Converting to DCC

Pete
 

Thanks Paul.

I made the changes you suggested to my drawings and reposted them.
I also added some dimensions and comments to verify I got your suggestions correct.

Where do I connect the Auto Reverse units?

Pete

Re: Converting to DCC

Pete
 

Thanks Mark.

My train layout is HO scale. See new drawing with dimensions.

Max Engineers - The operating area is only 32" x 70" so at most 2 Engineers in the room.

Running Engines - 2 at most, others would be dummies.

I don't want to do the upgrade path. 
I want to buy the full wireless system from the start with a 5 amp power supply and one extra wireless controller.

I maybe naive, I imagine with only 4 trains running, each on it's own loop or in the sub-yard/ramp, I should be able to manage the one that is switching around possibly if I have each on a separate handheld controller?

Pete

Re: Converting to DCC

thomasmclae
 

I recommend a system that can connect to JMRI. (See JMRI.org page to see list of systems)
JMRI lets you connect to any smart phone to use as wireless throttle, either android or Apple. So each operator can use his phone as a throttle. The limit is about 8, depending on your wi-fi router capacity. (And most folks have an old phone to use. Just need wi-fi to log on to network.)
Once you connect to JMRI, the actual hardware fades into the background.

Our club runs both DC and DCC on the layout. The main difference is we no longer need 'kill' switches for each siding to isolate a Lok we want to stay put. DCC does that for us.
Also, with DCC there are auto-reverse options, either as booster connection or stand-alone modules. No more DPDT reverser toggles switches!
You do need to completely isolate any power districts, isolating both rails. (No more universal common.)
Also, it is recommended you use at lease one booster, even if you use only one. That protects your DCC system from shorts, zaps, etc. Fry the booster, not the more expensive DCC system.
Good luck!
The Digitrax wiring diagrams are pretty good for getting the DCC wiring options, even if you do not use Digitrax.

Thomas
DeSoto, TX

Re: Converting to DCC

Mark Gurries
 

What do I need to change to convert to DCC?

I'm considering using the NCE wireless system.
I want to be able to have 4 trains running at the same time.
I want to be able to have more train addressed and ready to swap in from the parking yard below my layout connected via a long perimeter ramp.
Hmm, What else do you need to know?
What scale are you running?

How many people (Engineers) will be running trains? This is not the same as how many trains you run.

How many running engines per train?

The room suggest one could use a NCE PowerCab to start. You can add the same wireless system to it.

If you determine you actually need more power, then you can expand with the SB5 booster. This has many benefits over the PowerPro.

Although one person can run multiple trains, the problems show up when there is a problem with a train. Why? Each Engineer only actively control of one train at any given time. The others will run without an engineer but someone will have to select the engine of the problematic train to regain control giving up control of the train they currently are running.

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com

Re: Converting to DCC

Paul O
 

Pete, I added a second drawing to your photo album showing where you could put double-insulated gaps.

For the lower layout, (which is basically a loop), double-gap as shown by the four 'X's.

For the upper layout, double gap at the four locations as shown by the 'X's.
That will give you a reverse loop (A thru B to C and back to A) long enough for roughly a 125" long train.
Also in the other direction, D to C to B and back to D.

Just one way to do it.    Paul O

Converting to DCC

Pete
 

Hi,
I'm new to using this forum.
I have a DC layout that I want to convert to DCC so I'd like some help from the experts so I can do it right the first time.

I added a pic to the photo section under "Pete's layout".
My room is 8'x13',  with a swing gate to enter the room.
All rails are connected to a common 12g bus.
There are two isolated sections fo changing polarity.

What do I need to change to convert to DCC?

I'm considering using the NCE wireless system.
I want to be able to have 4 trains running at the same time.
I want to be able to have more train addressed and ready to swap in from the parking yard below my layout connected via a long perimeter ramp.
Hmm, What else do you need to know?

Re: PECO Code 100 24 Degree Crossing: Shorting Issue

Daniel Brewer
 

I finally gave up on these and installed an Atlas crossing. Too bad as all of my track is PECO. Since this crossing is in a yard and only serves 2 industries, it was no big deal to just station a Scale Trains SD40-2 in this area as a fix. I left the Atlas crossing dead, and I will leave it at that until I have a ton a time, and want to build a crossing. @disappointedin PECO

Re: DCC Specialties- Hare and Wabbit

Kevin Hannan
 

Scott,
  The stall type controllers will not work with servos.  Servos are controlled by a repeating timed pulse which tells the servo what specific position to move to and hold.  A tortoise (stall motor) just moves to either end until it can’t move anymore, then just stops.

  You will need a controller that can produce the timing signal rather than just apply power and change the polarity.

Kevin P. Hannan
Marietta, GA

On Jan 14, 2020, at 8:49 AM, Scott H. Haycock <shhaycock@...> wrote:

I'm dismantling a too-large layout project that used these stationary decoders to control Tortoise switch motors in a hidden staging yard. I'm planning a much smaller, and simpler layout, and want to use servos to control the fewer number of turnouts.

My question is: Has anyone come up with a way (possibly an interface circuit) to control servos with these decoders? My reason for wanting to use them is some the auxiliary features these decoders provide.

TIA,
Scott Haycock

Re: PECO Code 100 24 Degree Crossing: Shorting Issue

George Galyon
 

had the same exact problem at our club.  We tried to fix it...couldn't.  We tried lowering the short sensitivity setting on the system...nyet.  Finally we went with your ugh.  
Interesting to see from the replies to this thread that PECO has acknowledged this problem.  

Re: DCC Specialties website not working

dennisedgar7
 

Hi,

Try DCC Concepts. I was on their website yesterday and they have DCC Specialites products.
Regards,
Dennis

On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 at 16:47, Don Bowen <don.bowen@...> wrote:
On 1/12/2020 3:02 PM, Scott H. Haycock wrote:
> https://tonystrains.com/
>
There is nothing at that site with anything about DCC specialties, just
a listing of products.  I looked all over their site earlier and found
nothing.

--
Don Bowen       --AD0NB--




--
Dennis G Edgar
Lead Auditor  133839
mobile: 083 6470569