Date   
Re: cv's gone wrong

Ross Kudlick
 

Pete,

 

What DCC system/model are you using.  This sounds like a “system” issue, not a decoder issue.

 

For example, the Digitrax Zephyr system has a “speed limiter” setting for the built-in throttle that you may have activated.  You would need to turn it back off.

 

I’m not sure if any other system has a similar feature.

 

Give us some specifics so we can help you.

 

Since this is affecting all locomotives, it is not likely a decoder CV issue; I would not start resetting decoders at this point.

 

Regards,

 

Ross Kudlick

 


From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] On Behalf Of fixerup1054@...
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 7:58 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] cv's gone wrong

 

 

hello all hope you are enjoying your layouts I was until I hit the wrong buttons on the controller and all my engines are just creeping at full throttle can anyone help me get my layout up running again its making me very unhappy to do the wrong cv's and don't know how it happened and how to change it back is it the throttle or is it the engines would be very thankful for your help thanks B.N.S.F. pete

Re: cv's gone wrong

Rna
 

Hello Pete
It sounds like  that your central unit send full DC out on the track.
If your engines are set to run om dc “CV 29 bit 2 (4)” they all vill run att full speed.
Arne
 

Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:58 AM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] cv's gone wrong
 
 

hello all hope you are enjoying your layouts I was until I hit the wrong buttons on the controller and all my engines are just creeping at full throttle can anyone help me get my layout up running again its making me very unhappy to do the wrong cv's and don't know how it happened and how to change it back is it the throttle or is it the engines would be very thankful for your help thanks B.N.S.F. pete

Re: cv's gone wrong

john
 

Pete,
   Easy Peasy, somewhere in your information you have a CV, the activation of that CV will return all your settings to factory. The information came with your decoder.
john


 

From: "fixerup1054@..."
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 7:58 PM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] cv's gone wrong



hello all hope you are enjoying your layouts I was until I hit the wrong buttons on the controller and all my engines are just creeping at full throttle can anyone help me get my layout up running again its making me very unhappy to do the wrong cv's and don't know how it happened and how to change it back is it the throttle or is it the engines would be very thankful for your help thanks B.N.S.F. pete



Re: cv's gone wrong

Flash Gordon
 

Hello Pete,

I am not trying to chase you away but each DDC command system is different. You may get better answers if you join the group that uses your specific type of controller. You will probably be told to set all the decoders back to factory settings, then start over. How to do that depends on the manufaturer.

Ed S

At 07:58 PM 2/25/2014, you wrote:


hello all hope you are enjoying your layouts I was until I hit the wrong buttons on the controller and all my engines are just creeping at full throttle can anyone help me get my layout up running again its making me very unhappy to do the wrong cv's and don't know how it happened and how to change it back is it the throttle or is it the engines would be very thankful for your help thanks B.N.S.F. pete

cv's gone wrong

Peter Graham
 

hello all hope you are enjoying your layouts I was until I hit the wrong buttons on the controller and all my engines are just creeping at full throttle can anyone help me get my layout up running again its making me very unhappy to do the wrong cv's and don't know how it happened and how to change it back is it the throttle or is it the engines would be very thankful for your help thanks B.N.S.F. pete

Re: Two motors

Flash Gordon
 

John,

The GG1 my favorite loco. You should have plenty of room in there for a big decoder. I have several GG1's in HO scale and I know they are roomy.

Ed S


...At 03:21 PM 2/25/2014, you wrote:



Thanks for the info. It should be okay, then. The two motors are identical Pitmans wired in parallel. The decoder is QSI and can amply handle the amps. Its an O scale GG-1.

John

Re: Two motors

John Bishop
 

--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 2/25/14, keith.woodbridge@... <keith.woodbridge@...> wrote:

Subject: [WiringForDCC] RE: Two motors
To: WiringForDCC@...
Date: Tuesday, February 25, 2014, 8:19 AM



Thanks for the info. It should be okay, then. The two motors are identical Pitmans wired in parallel. The decoder is QSI and can amply handle the amps. Its an O scale GG-1.

John












 









Hi John,
You should have a good reason for doing this because there
are some drawbacks. Firstly, the good news is that the two
motors should be wired in parallel and will run well
together, if they are similar, much like they would have
done on DC, even with BEMF turned on. So, from that point of
view, you may find that you like the combination and it
could produce a good smooth running outfit, mine certainly
ran well.
The bad news is, firstly you must ensure that the decoder is
able to deliver the current. I ran an Athearn RTR F7 A and B
unit like this for a couple of years but the current was
near the limit of the Lenz Standard decoder particularly
when cold and had a habit of shutting down. Of course, the
Athearn motors are current hungry so with a later motor,
this will be less of a problem.The second issue for me was
the permanent coupling of the two locos was a pain if you
wanted to remove them from the track. I also found that
connecting the track pickup wires across the two units was
beneficial, especially on dirty track. Therefore you end up
with four wires between the locos, more if you want lights.
Eventually, I fitted a second decoder.
Having said all that, you won't know until you try and
you can always add another decoder later if you don't
like it.
Best of luck,
Keith

Re: R/C network or snubber

Mark Gurries
 

Ouch!! 

On Feb 25, 2014, at 9:46 AM, <dvollrath@...> <dvollrath@...> wrote:



I noticed that ITW/Paktron and CDE have the same single item R/C snubber part in their catalogs. 0.1 uFD, 100 ohms, 1/2 watt.  Perfect for the simple DCC application I was thinking... Then I saw that Digikey was selling them for $8.30 each as p/n 338-2581-ND. No wonder we make our own with separately available parts for less than a dollar!

DonV 




Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



R/C network or snubber

dvollrath@...
 

I noticed that ITW/Paktron and CDE have the same single item R/C snubber part in their catalogs. 0.1 uFD, 100 ohms, 1/2 watt.  Perfect for the simple DCC application I was thinking... Then I saw that Digikey was selling them for $8.30 each as p/n 338-2581-ND. No wonder we make our own with separately available parts for less than a dollar!

DonV 

Re: Two motors

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

An interesting perspective Keith. I was not thinking of coupled A & B units with one motor each. My thinking was that the question was related to larger MRR scales where one might find one motor per truck in the same loco unit. You are right in connecting the motors in parallel to a single decoder with 2 wires between units… Plus using another 2 wires to connect the truck pick-ups on both units together for better overall pick-up for the decoder. Use a 4-pin connector or two 2 pin connectors (with the polarity reversed to prevent misconnection) between the units. Wire flexibility becomes a problem on HO and smaller scales. You can use BEMF controls for 1 decoder powering 2 motors in parallel.

 

If you go the route of a decoder in each unit, it still pays to have the 2 conductor ‘MU’ cable to connect track pick-ups together between them. One method is to use identical decoders set to the same address with the exact same CV settings (use POM for all adjustments). Another method is to set the decoders to different addresses but then always run them together in a consist. If using 2 decoders, BEMF controls should be turned off on at least one unit or they may be continually bumping the couplers as they fight one another. The 2 decoder method also works better for sound in only the B unit as there is more hidden room to work with for a speaker, but far more fiddling with CVs to get the sound and non-sound decoder to speed track. (The exact reason Soundtraxx also has a non-sound Tsunami.)

 

I fabricated a short drawbar out of brass strip to replace the couplers for more realistic distance between permanently coupled A & B F units.

 

DonV    

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] On Behalf Of keith.woodbridge@...
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 10:20 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] RE: Two motors

 



Hi John,
You should have a good reason for doing this because there are some drawbacks. Firstly, the good news is that the two motors should be wired in parallel and will run well together, if they are similar, much like they would have done on DC, even with BEMF turned on. So, from that point of view, you may find that you like the combination and it could produce a good smooth running outfit, mine certainly ran well.
The bad news is, firstly you must ensure that the decoder is able to deliver the current. I ran an Athearn RTR F7 A and B unit like this for a couple of years but the current was near the limit of the Lenz Standard decoder particularly when cold and had a habit of shutting down. Of course, the Athearn motors are current hungry so with a later motor, this will be less of a problem.The second issue for me was the permanent coupling of the two locos was a pain if you wanted to remove them from the track. I also found that connecting the track pickup wires across the two units was beneficial, especially on dirty track. Therefore you end up with four wires between the locos, more if you want lights. Eventually, I fitted a second decoder.
Having said all that, you won't know until you try and you can always add another decoder later if you don't like it.
Best of luck,
Keith


Re: Two motors

Keith Woodbridge
 

Hi John,
You should have a good reason for doing this because there are some drawbacks. Firstly, the good news is that the two motors should be wired in parallel and will run well together, if they are similar, much like they would have done on DC, even with BEMF turned on. So, from that point of view, you may find that you like the combination and it could produce a good smooth running outfit, mine certainly ran well.
The bad news is, firstly you must ensure that the decoder is able to deliver the current. I ran an Athearn RTR F7 A and B unit like this for a couple of years but the current was near the limit of the Lenz Standard decoder particularly when cold and had a habit of shutting down. Of course, the Athearn motors are current hungry so with a later motor, this will be less of a problem.The second issue for me was the permanent coupling of the two locos was a pain if you wanted to remove them from the track. I also found that connecting the track pickup wires across the two units was beneficial, especially on dirty track. Therefore you end up with four wires between the locos, more if you want lights. Eventually, I fitted a second decoder.
Having said all that, you won't know until you try and you can always add another decoder later if you don't like it.
Best of luck,
Keith

Re: Two motors

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

There are several factors a play here. A single decoder must be able to handle the current drawn by both motors. Look at the amp requirements of the motors and then find a single decoder, or one with an output amplifier to meet or beat those requirements. If you can find one big enough, wire the motors in parallel. Two motors connected in parallel should be well matched as to make & model and track in speed using the same gearing ratio to the rails. If they do not track well, they will be forced to run at the same rpm at rail speed but may not share load current very well. Do not connect the motors in series.

 

If you cannot find a single decoder big enough to handle the amp rating of both motors connected in parallel, the next idea would be to use two separate decoders. This may appear to be a better solution, but both motors as well as both decoders should be identical…. AND the voltage output to the motor vs all DCC throttle step setting CVs should be the same. Turn off all BEMF compensation to avoid the two units fighting one another. Make sure both decoders are wired to the same power pick-ups to ensure they are always powered together.

 

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] On Behalf Of snboy2001@...
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 12:49 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Two motors

 



I have heard that for an engine using two motors it is best to have two two separate decoders. Does anyone have any info or advise on this?
Thanks.
John Bishop


Two motors

John Bishop
 

I have heard that for an engine using two motors it is best to have two two separate decoders. Does anyone have any info or advise on this?
Thanks.
John Bishop

Re: DCC Bus Supply for Turnout Control/Decoder

Chris Richter
 

Steve/Dale - I failed to mention that what got me to this question was Circuit Breakers (duh) - the answer is yes my plan is to have CBs on each of the Main Buses.  Given your input I will have to decide if I leave the Tortoises on the main Bus or separate them - but at this point I will hold that thought for later this year. 

Thanks, Chris

Re: DCC Bus Supply for Turnout Control/Decoder

Steve Haas
 

<<In the copious notes I have taken in the last 2 years in prep to start building my layout, I find a note (no source that I noted) telling me I should think about having separate buses to supply power to my Tortoise Machines and associated decoders.>>

 

A separate bus for stationary decoders that drive switch machines is a good idea for the reason you mention in your post – properly set up, the separate bus, fed by a separate circuit breaker or booster (depending on your configuration) will allow you to throw the points that you should have thrown correctly before your train arrived at that location , thus eliminating the short and allowing you to proceed.

 

 My plan calls for 6 power districts across 2 boosters (districts split 3/3). Current plan on the Tortoises is 20 off one booster and 15 on the other. My layout is spread across 3 levels. One level of my layout has 60% of all the turnouts and the design split is 7 on one booster and 14 on the other (due to distances involved). 

As I recall I got this notion due to the possibility of a short in a district shutting down that district and freezing a turnout. I make not claim on the validity of my memory on this however as my approaching 60th may have something to do with my memory... This is an HO layout.

My question is then: Can I draw my power as I planned from my Main Buses or should I run separate buses to supply this power.  This will largely be a single operator setup and no more than 4-6 trains in operation at a time. My preference is to leave my plan as it is and draw from my Main Bus, but I welcome advice and guidance.

 

If you choose, you can do exactly what you have laid out.  You don’t mention circuit breakers, so any track short out of either booster would make it impossible to throw the turnouts linked to that booster.

 

On the other hand, you mention that this is pretty much a one person operation.  In that case, if there’s a short caused by running points, you’re the only one affected.  How important to you is it to be able to throw the turnout that didn’t get thrown, versus backing the train up by hand to clear the short, then throwing the turnout once the power has been restored.

 

Conversely, if you are the primary operator on your layout, you should know the layout and will never run a turnout, right <>.  If that’s the case, you don’t need the protection of placing your turnout decoders on a separate bus.

 

Most layouts with either (depending on size and other logistics) will allocate either an entire booster, or the output of a circuit breaker to the tortoise circuit. 

 

You’ve got options, what you implement depends on your operational objectives.

 

Best regards,

 

Steve Haas

Snoqualmie, WA

 

 

 

 



Thanks, Chris

Re: DCC

Mark Gurries
 

However, with in the past couple of days or so, on this or one of the other
DCC related forums, Mark has stated that keeping the two wires in the track
bus separated by 6 inches or so is acceptable.   

The way the author stated his orignal question allowed this confusion.   I suspect I read it one way others are reading it another way.

I re-reading everything and I do not see any conflict with my understanding of the question.

At one point the author seem to asking questions about MULTIPLE track busses being next to each at terminal strips other and other times he seem to be talking about the wires of given track bus.  He admits he seems confused.  

That is why I added the definition of what a track bus was to the top of my reply.  A bus is two wires.  

He appeared to be saying he thought he needed to keep two track bus 6" from each other.  There is no need to keep multiple track bus seperate from each other.  They can be bundle together if there is no occupancy detection involved.

Then he seem to be talking about the wires of a single bus and needing to keep them 6" apart.   

When I said there is no requirement to keep the two wires of a track bus separated, I was responding to the "idea" as provided by many layout wiring books and other general "How To" site  that show two wires apart.  He stated he seem to be looking all over the internet for layout wiring information.

You only want to keep track busses away from NON track busses or wires by 6 inches.

Ed is correct.

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Re: DCC

john
 

Guys,
   I have read a lot about Feeders, Taps (connections), and Buss wiring. I do most of the wiring for my club and I spent 36 years working for a phone company. The reason wires are twisted is because if wires, pairs, or bundles run in parallel or are coiled they become a transformer. Two parallel wires are pretty much a capacitor. You can estimate the length of a pair by measuring it's capacity which is no interest to us. My club settled on Digitrax because as a group it is what we have the most experience with.
   I twist wire by coiling it and pulling the wire from the center of the coil. It sure isn't a twist per foot but it is easy and it is inconsistent which is another good thing. We have 14 local areas that are each fed through a Digitrax PM42. A PM 42 divides booster feeds into sub sections and provides a default current control and adjustable control lower and higher. We use to reverse units but we have found that PM42's will do the same for less than two reverse units and still give two extra sub sections.
   Difitrax says the Bus wires of  300 feet need to be 14 gage. We used 16 gage wire to wire all our local switching areas (14), our main line (some single, some double and both have reverse sections), and every area passes our short test. All our wire runs in distributing (D) rings (never use closed or spiral rings) along with switching, signaling, and point indicating, and DCC signaling with no problems. Most of our layout has twisted 22 gage feeders, some are 50 feet long.
   It confounds me that Digitrax would want their network wiring to run on flat cable. On any other system I have worked on flat cable degrades signal. We have over 200 feet of flat cable running to a dozen access points mounted on fascia with no problems.
   Our layout was originally DC and we still support people who still use DC. With the turn of a key, the layout switches from DC to DCC so we have had a full portion of problems.
   If you look on Carter's wiring for DCC, you will find the best set of instructions for soldering anywhere. Look especially at ruby fluid and Blue fluid, they will help you solder like an expert. I think it has suggestions for wire sizes too.
Good luck with your wiring,
john
  
   

From: Ed S
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2014 3:52 PM
Subject: RE: [WiringForDCC] DCC

Steve,

We agree..  Also I think twisiting the main bus  makes it easier to
work with, I use solid wire and I think the twist keeps a bend
better. I use 3M connectors and it is not hard to untwist a little
and insert them. But if anyone plans to solder then the twist gets in the way.

I think Mark's statement on the other DCC forum was a typo or
misunderstanding of the question. I read them also.

In re-reading the Wiring web site I learned again that Romex's
internal wire is to far apart to use. At one point I was going to do
that because I have a lot of Romex stored in the barn. It is a devil
to strip out Romex.

Ed S





At 03:36 PM 2/23/2014, you wrote:
>
>
>
>
><>close together. The comment about being 6 inches apart refers to the main
>bus verses the throttle bus. Those two bus'es should not be close together.
>
>From:
>
>http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm>>
>
>Ed,
>
>Mark did indeed make those comments on Wiring for DCC. And in the
>commentary you point to he does advocate twisting the wires, and I
>personally keep my pairs together, and while I don't always twist them
>(there's a story behind that), I personally don't advocating keeping the
>DCC track bus wires separate - keep them tight together and preferable
>twisted.
>
>However, with in the past couple of days or so, on this or one of the other
>DCC related forums, Mark has stated that keeping the two wires in the track
>bus separated by 6 inches or so is acceptable. As I mentioned in a
>previous post, I wouldn't do that simply because of the extra space it takes
>up under the layou.
>
>The command bus should indeed be kept separate from the track buss, but I
>sure wouldn't settle for a six inch minimum unless I had absolutely no other
>option.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Steve Haas
>Snoqualmie, WA




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Re: DCC

Steve Haas
 

 

<

misunderstanding of the question. I read them also.>>

 

Could be . . . IIRC, the question was written in a manner that would allow it to be interpreted different ways.  Perhaps Mark will see this conversation and jump in.

 

I might not be so willing to accept the "keep your two track bus wires six inches apart" had it not come up separately several times lately.

 

I seem to recall that "way back then", when we were first learning to deal with digital controls for our trains that keeping the wires separate was initially the recommended way to go. Since then, that seems to have fallen out of favor, though apparently still a technically acceptable implementation.

 

<

internal wire is to far apart to use. At one point I was going to do

that because I have a lot of Romex stored in the barn. It is a devil

to strip out Romex.>>

 

 

Yup, that’s a time consuming and ugly job.  If one has lots of Romex, lots of time, and is short on budget, it can be utilized.

 

I’ve had access to a great deal of used or recycled wire in the 30 years I’ve been helping a friend with his layout and I’ve got to be honest – unless its relatively _new_ wire, and recently surplused, an individual wiring their layout will be far better served to acquire new wire.  New wire, purchased in bulk will almost always be easier to work with then older wire, plus you are controlling exactly what you get in terms of size, type, insulation color and metallic content.

 

Having said that, I do realize that there are some folks that simply do not have that option and need to make do with what they can acquire for little or no cost.

 

Best regards,

 

Steve Haas

Snoqualmie, WA

 

Re: DCC Bus Supply for Turnout Control/Decoder

Dale Gloer
 

Running a separate buss doesn't help unless you are routing the power districts through circuit breakers and you run the bus for your Tortoises through it's own breaker or directly off a booster.  The amount of power drawn by 35 tortoises is less than 1 amp so splitting the load is not an issue.

Dale.

Stripping Romex

Bill><>
 

I picked up a tool specifically designed to strip the coating off Romex at Home Depot; still a pain in the neck for quantity though.  I am using #12 wire
Bill Kozel
 

From: Ed S
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2014 3:52 PM
Subject: RE: [WiringForDCC] DCC
 
 

Steve,

We agree.. Also I think twisiting the main bus makes it easier to
work with, I use solid wire and I think the twist keeps a bend
better. I use 3M connectors and it is not hard to untwist a little
and insert them. But if anyone plans to solder then the twist gets in the way.

I think Mark's statement on the other DCC forum was a typo or
misunderstanding of the question. I read them also.

In re-reading the Wiring web site I learned again that Romex's
internal wire is to far apart to use. At one point I was going to do
that because I have a lot of Romex stored in the barn. It is a devil
to strip out Romex.

Ed S

At 03:36 PM 2/23/2014, you wrote:
>
>
>
>
><>close together. The comment about being 6 inches apart refers to the main
>bus verses the throttle bus. Those two bus'es should not be close together.
>
>From:
>
>http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm>>
>
>Ed,
>
>Mark did indeed make those comments on Wiring for DCC. And in the
>commentary you point to he does advocate twisting the wires, and I
>personally keep my pairs together, and while I don't always twist them
>(there's a story behind that), I personally don't advocating keeping the
>DCC track bus wires separate - keep them tight together and preferable
>twisted.
>
>However, with in the past couple of days or so, on this or one of the other
>DCC related forums, Mark has stated that keeping the two wires in the track
>bus separated by 6 inches or so is acceptable. As I mentioned in a
>previous post, I wouldn't do that simply because of the extra space it takes
>up under the layou.
>
>The command bus should indeed be kept separate from the track buss, but I
>sure wouldn't settle for a six inch minimum unless I had absolutely no other
>option.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Steve Haas
>Snoqualmie, WA


Madogbill><>