Date   

Re: Signal Blocks

Paul R Greenwald
 

Perry-

A link to that you tube video?

Thank you,

Paul R Greenwald 
PRRT&HS 1802
NMRA 129229 


Re: Signal Blocks

wirefordcc
 

Hi Perry,

You can tap off your power bus and run the tapped wire through your block detector.  After coming out of your block detector you would create your signal bus.

Allan


Re: Signal Blocks

Perry A Pollino
 

Please disregard my last post. 
I just found you tube video from an Aussie modeler and Now I can see it. 
Perry

On Monday, September 14, 2020, 10:40:40 AM CDT, Perry A Pollino <texasperry@...> wrote:


Bill and Allan.
 
Maybe I missed something.  Can I run a separate signal bus that a block detector will see? And not have to cut my power buss.



On Monday, September 14, 2020, 09:47:04 AM CDT, wirefordcc <bigboy@...> wrote:


Thanks Bill,

 

I’ll add this to my list of things I would like to include when I get to writing this up.

 

Allan

 

 

From: w4dccqa@groups.io <w4dccqa@groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Wilken
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 5:09 PM
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] Signal Blocks

 

Alan,

 

Your proposed piece on signal block wiring diagrams would be very helpful.  It's taken me a lot of digging to find documentation of this sort.   Let me suggest that you take particular care when referring to "the bus."  Below, you advise that "when you gap your track for your block, you will need to cut your bus at the same point."  But which bus?  The one for track power?  The signal bus?   While I know which bus you're referring to, the answer may not be obvious to the uninitiated.  

 

In the documentation you propose, it also would be helpful to offer tips on wiring issues that might not come readily to mind to the newcomer, particuarly changes that often must be made in existing layouts wiring, e.g. track power feeds.    Similarly, it would be great if you could add some very practical tips and tricks, e.g. showing how to use the same signal bus for parallel tracks.  And, then, there's the matter of integrating signaling with turnouts or interlockings, something that I'm currently wrestling with.

 

Bill

 

 

 

 

On Sun, 2020-09-13 at 10:53 -0700, wirefordcc wrote:

Hi Perry,

 

Yes, when you gap your track for your block, you will need to cut your bus at that same point. 

 

Let’s say you have two signal blocks that you want to make within a particular power district.  Gap your track and cut your bus at the point where you want to create two signal blocks. 

 

When you do this, you will likely have one section of track still connected to your electronic circuit breaker.  Snake this bus wire through the block detector.  You should now have one detected block.

 

For the section you cut and is now dead, Add some wire to this isolated section of bus and snake it through a block detector and attach the end of the new wire to the output of your electronic circuit breaker.  You should now have two wires attached to the output of your electronic circuit breaker and two detected blocks.

 

I want to write some more on block detection in the future.  I’ll need to create some diagrams, too.  I’ll keep your email around and may be back in touch when I get to doing this.

 

Allan Gartner

Wiring for DCC


Re: Signal Blocks

Perry A Pollino
 

Bill and Allan.
 
Maybe I missed something.  Can I run a separate signal bus that a block detector will see? And not have to cut my power buss.



On Monday, September 14, 2020, 09:47:04 AM CDT, wirefordcc <bigboy@...> wrote:


Thanks Bill,

 

I’ll add this to my list of things I would like to include when I get to writing this up.

 

Allan

 

 

From: w4dccqa@groups.io <w4dccqa@groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Wilken
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 5:09 PM
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] Signal Blocks

 

Alan,

 

Your proposed piece on signal block wiring diagrams would be very helpful.  It's taken me a lot of digging to find documentation of this sort.   Let me suggest that you take particular care when referring to "the bus."  Below, you advise that "when you gap your track for your block, you will need to cut your bus at the same point."  But which bus?  The one for track power?  The signal bus?   While I know which bus you're referring to, the answer may not be obvious to the uninitiated.  

 

In the documentation you propose, it also would be helpful to offer tips on wiring issues that might not come readily to mind to the newcomer, particuarly changes that often must be made in existing layouts wiring, e.g. track power feeds.    Similarly, it would be great if you could add some very practical tips and tricks, e.g. showing how to use the same signal bus for parallel tracks.  And, then, there's the matter of integrating signaling with turnouts or interlockings, something that I'm currently wrestling with.

 

Bill

 

 

 

 

On Sun, 2020-09-13 at 10:53 -0700, wirefordcc wrote:

Hi Perry,

 

Yes, when you gap your track for your block, you will need to cut your bus at that same point. 

 

Let’s say you have two signal blocks that you want to make within a particular power district.  Gap your track and cut your bus at the point where you want to create two signal blocks. 

 

When you do this, you will likely have one section of track still connected to your electronic circuit breaker.  Snake this bus wire through the block detector.  You should now have one detected block.

 

For the section you cut and is now dead, Add some wire to this isolated section of bus and snake it through a block detector and attach the end of the new wire to the output of your electronic circuit breaker.  You should now have two wires attached to the output of your electronic circuit breaker and two detected blocks.

 

I want to write some more on block detection in the future.  I’ll need to create some diagrams, too.  I’ll keep your email around and may be back in touch when I get to doing this.

 

Allan Gartner

Wiring for DCC


Re: Signal Blocks

wirefordcc
 

Thanks Bill,

 

I’ll add this to my list of things I would like to include when I get to writing this up.

 

Allan

 

 

From: w4dccqa@groups.io <w4dccqa@groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Wilken
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 5:09 PM
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] Signal Blocks

 

Alan,

 

Your proposed piece on signal block wiring diagrams would be very helpful.  It's taken me a lot of digging to find documentation of this sort.   Let me suggest that you take particular care when referring to "the bus."  Below, you advise that "when you gap your track for your block, you will need to cut your bus at the same point."  But which bus?  The one for track power?  The signal bus?   While I know which bus you're referring to, the answer may not be obvious to the uninitiated.  

 

In the documentation you propose, it also would be helpful to offer tips on wiring issues that might not come readily to mind to the newcomer, particuarly changes that often must be made in existing layouts wiring, e.g. track power feeds.    Similarly, it would be great if you could add some very practical tips and tricks, e.g. showing how to use the same signal bus for parallel tracks.  And, then, there's the matter of integrating signaling with turnouts or interlockings, something that I'm currently wrestling with.

 

Bill

 

 

 

 

On Sun, 2020-09-13 at 10:53 -0700, wirefordcc wrote:

Hi Perry,

 

Yes, when you gap your track for your block, you will need to cut your bus at that same point. 

 

Let’s say you have two signal blocks that you want to make within a particular power district.  Gap your track and cut your bus at the point where you want to create two signal blocks. 

 

When you do this, you will likely have one section of track still connected to your electronic circuit breaker.  Snake this bus wire through the block detector.  You should now have one detected block.

 

For the section you cut and is now dead, Add some wire to this isolated section of bus and snake it through a block detector and attach the end of the new wire to the output of your electronic circuit breaker.  You should now have two wires attached to the output of your electronic circuit breaker and two detected blocks.

 

I want to write some more on block detection in the future.  I’ll need to create some diagrams, too.  I’ll keep your email around and may be back in touch when I get to doing this.

 

Allan Gartner

Wiring for DCC


Re: Signal Blocks

Steve Haas
 

Here’s a link to the Writing for DCC website: WWW.wiringfordcc.com

 

Part 2 on Track Wiring has the following section: http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm has a section that addresses what you want to accomplish there.

 

Scroll down to: Block Wiring for Large Layouts (V2.0)

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

Steve Haas

Snoqualmie, WA

 


Re: Signal Blocks

Bill Wilken
 

Alan,

Your proposed piece on signal block wiring diagrams would be very helpful.  It's taken me a lot of digging to find documentation of this sort.   Let me suggest that you take particular care when referring to "the bus."  Below, you advise that "when you gap your track for your block, you will need to cut your bus at the same point."  But which bus?  The one for track power?  The signal bus?   While I know which bus you're referring to, the answer may not be obvious to the uninitiated.  

In the documentation you propose, it also would be helpful to offer tips on wiring issues that might not come readily to mind to the newcomer, particuarly changes that often must be made in existing layouts wiring, e.g. track power feeds.    Similarly, it would be great if you could add some very practical tips and tricks, e.g. showing how to use the same signal bus for parallel tracks.  And, then, there's the matter of integrating signaling with turnouts or interlockings, something that I'm currently wrestling with.

Bill




On Sun, 2020-09-13 at 10:53 -0700, wirefordcc wrote:

Hi Perry,

 

Yes, when you gap your track for your block, you will need to cut your bus at that same point. 

 

Let’s say you have two signal blocks that you want to make within a particular power district.  Gap your track and cut your bus at the point where you want to create two signal blocks. 

 

When you do this, you will likely have one section of track still connected to your electronic circuit breaker.  Snake this bus wire through the block detector.  You should now have one detected block.

 

For the section you cut and is now dead, Add some wire to this isolated section of bus and snake it through a block detector and attach the end of the new wire to the output of your electronic circuit breaker.  You should now have two wires attached to the output of your electronic circuit breaker and two detected blocks.

 

I want to write some more on block detection in the future.  I’ll need to create some diagrams, too.  I’ll keep your email around and may be back in touch when I get to doing this.

 

Allan Gartner

Wiring for DCC


Re: Signal Blocks

wirefordcc
 

Hi Perry,

 

Yes, when you gap your track for your block, you will need to cut your bus at that same point. 

 

Let’s say you have two signal blocks that you want to make within a particular power district.  Gap your track and cut your bus at the point where you want to create two signal blocks. 

 

When you do this, you will likely have one section of track still connected to your electronic circuit breaker.  Snake this bus wire through the block detector.  You should now have one detected block.

 

For the section you cut and is now dead, Add some wire to this isolated section of bus and snake it through a block detector and attach the end of the new wire to the output of your electronic circuit breaker.  You should now have two wires attached to the output of your electronic circuit breaker and two detected blocks.

 

I want to write some more on block detection in the future.  I’ll need to create some diagrams, too.  I’ll keep your email around and may be back in touch when I get to doing this.

 

Allan Gartner

Wiring for DCC


Re: Signal Blocks

Perry A Pollino
 

I am not quite wrapping my head around how to create a block within a power district. 
I have a drop on every section of track that is attached to my buss. I did use Vampire connectors for this.  Each power district has a separate buss.
When I gap my rail for a block. do I also need to cut my buss?
sure wish I was not so isolated from other model railroaders. 
I learn best when i can put my eyeball on things.
Perry

On Sunday, September 13, 2020, 12:26:25 PM CDT, wirefordcc <bigboy@...> wrote:


Hi Perry,

You can have multiple block detectors after each of your electronic circuit breakers.  I am doing this very thing on my railroad.  Your power district does not need to match your signal block.  That would be expensive!

Just don't try to have several power districts going through a particular block detector.

Allan


Re: Signal Blocks

wirefordcc
 

Hi Perry,

You can have multiple block detectors after each of your electronic circuit breakers.  I am doing this very thing on my railroad.  Your power district does not need to match your signal block.  That would be expensive!

Just don't try to have several power districts going through a particular block detector.

Allan


Re: Signal Blocks

Perry A Pollino
 

All of my Circuit breakers are centrally located. a buss line runs from each circuit breaker/AR.
I have a main line, and a secondary line on the same circuit breaker. I would want to put 2 blocks for detection within this power district. Can I do that? Or do I have to re do the power district to match the signal block. 
I had originally planned to use IR or photo detection but discovered I can only set timers for occupancy. 
Thanks you for you advice in advance.




On Sunday, September 13, 2020, 08:09:54 AM CDT, wirefordcc <bigboy@...> wrote:


Hi Perry,

I'm not sure I understand what you are proposing.  

For each section of track that you want to block detect, you would run that bus wire through a block detector like the NCE BD20.  That same section of track would need insulated joiners or gaps in the rail that has the block detector.  Since the layout already exists, you would cut gaps.

You can still use your circuit breakers.  The circuit breaker would come before your block detector.  Your circuit breaker can provide power for multiple blocks that are being detected.  

You cannot put your circuit breakers after the BD20's.  The little amount of power drawn by the circuit breaker would make it look like the block is occupied.  

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC


Re: Signal Blocks

wirefordcc
 

Hi Perry,

I'm not sure I understand what you are proposing.  

For each section of track that you want to block detect, you would run that bus wire through a block detector like the NCE BD20.  That same section of track would need insulated joiners or gaps in the rail that has the block detector.  Since the layout already exists, you would cut gaps.

You can still use your circuit breakers.  The circuit breaker would come before your block detector.  Your circuit breaker can provide power for multiple blocks that are being detected.  

You cannot put your circuit breakers after the BD20's.  The little amount of power drawn by the circuit breaker would make it look like the block is occupied.  

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC


Signal Blocks

Perry A Pollino
 

I have a N scale DCC layout. I have power districts controlled by DCC specialties circuit breakers.
I am thinking about adding signaling. At first I considered using IR. Primarily because my power districts are not lined up with what I would like for signal blocks.
I started to look at Atlas signal system. 
My question: Can I wire signal blocks with power detection separate from my power districts?
 How would I separate the two so as not to cause a short. 
Perry


Re: Atlas signal - Tortoise Interlocking

wirefordcc
 

Bill,

 

The Atlas switch machine has a common terminal.  You don’t need to get hung up over the term common.  Just look at the Atlas diagram you sent me.  You will see a blue wire that went to the Atlas.  Instead of connecting that blue to the Atlas, connect it to terminal 4 of the Tortoise.

 

Allan

 

From: w4dccqa@groups.io <w4dccqa@groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Wilken
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 1:43 PM
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] Atlas signal - Tortoise Interlocking

 

Alan,

 

Thanks for your help on this.  I have only one follow-up question.  You indicate the "blue" wire should run from Tortoise terminal 4 to common.  But common on what?  A rail?  Common on the Atlas signal control board?  Or common on the BD-20?  

 

Bill 

 

On Wed, 2020-08-05 at 11:29 -0700, wirefordcc wrote:

Hi Bill,

I reviewed the Atlas schematic you supplied and also went the Atlas website to learn a little bit about the Atlas Signal Control Board (SCB).  I found that it does not control the Atlas switch machine or Tortoise as you desire.  Rather, the Atlas switch machine or a Tortoise provides input to it.

The blue wire you see on the Atlas schematic that goes to the common on the Atlas switch machine would be attached to terminal 4 on a Tortoise.  The two green wires shown going to the Atlas switch machine go to terminals 2 and 3 on the Tortoise.  If you get the wrong aspect displayed, swap the wires going to 2 and 3.

You can control the Tortoise with DCC via an accessory decoder like made by NCE or Digitrax or through any traditional means of controlling a Tortoise switch machine. For more on controlling Tortoise switch machines, visit my website at:  http://www.wiringfordcc.com/sw_ctl.htm

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC


Re: Atlas signal - Tortoise Interlocking

Bill Wilken
 

Alan,

Thanks for your help on this.  I have only one follow-up question.  You indicate the "blue" wire should run from Tortoise terminal 4 to common.  But common on what?  A rail?  Common on the Atlas signal control board?  Or common on the BD-20?  

Bill 

On Wed, 2020-08-05 at 11:29 -0700, wirefordcc wrote:
Hi Bill,

I reviewed the Atlas schematic you supplied and also went the Atlas website to learn a little bit about the Atlas Signal Control Board (SCB).  I found that it does not control the Atlas switch machine or Tortoise as you desire.  Rather, the Atlas switch machine or a Tortoise provides input to it.

The blue wire you see on the Atlas schematic that goes to the common on the Atlas switch machine would be attached to terminal 4 on a Tortoise.  The two green wires shown going to the Atlas switch machine go to terminals 2 and 3 on the Tortoise.  If you get the wrong aspect displayed, swap the wires going to 2 and 3.

You can control the Tortoise with DCC via an accessory decoder like made by NCE or Digitrax or through any traditional means of controlling a Tortoise switch machine. For more on controlling Tortoise switch machines, visit my website at:  http://www.wiringfordcc.com/sw_ctl.htm

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC


Re: Power Districts & Safety Curcuit Breakers

Don Vollrath
 

I agree with Dale. There is no real need to install electronic breakers, Especially if you will be the only operator. But you could initially wire the layout by separating it into upper and lower power districts and add electronic breakers at a later time if interruptions caused by operator error shorts in one area causes the whole (booster) layout to shut down.

DonV


Re: Power Districts & Safety Curcuit Breakers

Brian Eiland
 

My thoughts were based on some limited knowledge I was given that shorts with DCC operating system might end up catching a loco on fire (or melting it) if it should short out on say a turnout thrown against it?

Returning to my power districts question, I might ask if it would be recommended that I divide my layout up into only 3 power districts,...one for each deck of the layout,

Top Deck
https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/sites/model-railroad-hobbyist.com/files/users/railandsail/image-20200910093236-2.jpeg




(these drawings are not currently 100% correct in their details, but give a good representation of my basic plan)

 

Or should I perhaps divide that main deck into 2 power districts?...surrounding  tracks then peninsula tracks?? (that would be 4 total,,....1+2+1)



On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:02 AM wirefordcc <bigboy@...> wrote:
Hi Brian,

Yes, boosters typically have short protection.  This is more to protect the booster than anything.

Power districts are a personal choice.  I have just two guidelines.

1.  For HO and smaller, I suggest that modelers have an electronic circuit breaker if they are using an 8 amp booster to make sure 8 amps can't go into a short.  That isn't you.  You have a 5 amp system.

2.  So for you, how many, if any power districts,you have depends on how much "pain" you can stand.  This often hinges on how many operators you have.  If you are the only operator of your layout, you are likely to know right away when you have a short and even if it takes you several minutes to find, you may not care.  So the answer could be, you don't need any electronic circuit breakers.

If you have several operators, you may not want to have your layout completely shut down during an operating session.  In this case, you may not be able to stand a lot of pain.  You want to get back and operating as quickly as possible.  You might want an electronic circuit breaker for every town to narrow your focus when a train stops running.

Hope this helps.

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC


Re: Power Districts & Safety Curcuit Breakers

wirefordcc
 

Hi Brian,

Yes, boosters typically have short protection.  This is more to protect the booster than anything.

Power districts are a personal choice.  I have just two guidelines.

1.  For HO and smaller, I suggest that modelers have an electronic circuit breaker if they are using an 8 amp booster to make sure 8 amps can't go into a short.  That isn't you.  You have a 5 amp system.

2.  So for you, how many, if any power districts,you have depends on how much "pain" you can stand.  This often hinges on how many operators you have.  If you are the only operator of your layout, you are likely to know right away when you have a short and even if it takes you several minutes to find, you may not care.  So the answer could be, you don't need any electronic circuit breakers.

If you have several operators, you may not want to have your layout completely shut down during an operating session.  In this case, you may not be able to stand a lot of pain.  You want to get back and operating as quickly as possible.  You might want an electronic circuit breaker for every town to narrow your focus when a train stops running.

Hope this helps.

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC


Re: Power Districts & Safety Curcuit Breakers

Dale Gloer
 

You are correct, the NCE system has short circuit protection.  The main reason for separate power districts with each having a short circuit protection device is to avoid having a short circuit in one power district shut down the whole layout.  From you layout description this is probably not a high priority for you so you can go ahead without any additional devices.

Dale Gloer


Re: Contacting DCC Specialist?

 

for DCC Specialist - Try reaching out to Tony's Trains



From: w4dccqa@groups.io [mailto:w4dccqa@groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Eiland
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2020 9:29 AM
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: [w4dccqa] Contacting DCC Specialist?

Contacting DCC Specialist?

If you have older PSX breakers without the trip delay config option, you can send them back to DCC Specialties for the upgrade free of charge; you will have to pay for shipping both ways.

Alan Loizeaux

 

I've tried sending them an email and got this reply,....

Delivery incomplete
There was a temporary problem delivering your message to info@....

 

This has turned into a repeat message. Is there another email address I should be using,...or someone else I should contact about this 'upgrade??
Brian