Date   
Re: DCC

Bob Pombrio <bob_pombrio@...>
 

At what length does the wire have to be twisted?  5 feet 20 feet?  I am working with a 4x8 layout and my main bus/power feed is Reese vehicle trailer wire.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/reh-85205?seid=srese1&gclid=CI6GuYmU8rwCFTQOOgod6FsAGg

So it's not twisted.  I went with this stuff because my table is actually 3 32" sections and I wanted a quick way to bridge the sections.  The idea is to be able to easily move the layout form room to room.


From: "len.jask@..." To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Saturday, March 1, 2014 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] DCC

 
Hello all,
Interested discussions and opinions here. In my planning stage I'm also pondering the best as not to have to do it over. I'll be laying out in large scale with lots of feet of wire! Every layout/scale is unique as well.
Based on working in the power conversion industry:
 The command bus is small signal and tightly twisting is best. Yes it greatly reduces capacitance but most important it contributes to noise immunity.
As to the power bus I'm still pondering on twisted vs separated. For the actual DC power feed to the booster it is irrevalent as it's pure DC.
From the booster to the track is where it gets tricky. Any conductor of given length generates a magnetic field based on direction and the right hand rule. Two conductors side by side where the currents are opposite the magnetic field cancels but there is capacitance. If spread apart enough, the capacitance is nullified and magnetic field is disregarded, just like the track spread.
For most of my projected layout I plan on using scale telephone poles for most wiring to keep it above ground. The command buss will be Cat5 twisted and the power will have 3 inch spread, just as in the rails so capacitance is null. I'll twist the feeds and for any power bus thats not spread I'll twist the leads as well.
Measure thrice, cut once!
Len Jaskiewicz


Re: DCC

jazzmanlj
 

Hello all,

Interested discussions and opinions here. In my planning stage I'm also pondering the best as not to have to do it over. I'll be laying out in large scale with lots of feet of wire! Every layout/scale is unique as well.

Based on working in the power conversion industry:

 The command bus is small signal and tightly twisting is best. Yes it greatly reduces capacitance but most important it contributes to noise immunity.

As to the power bus I'm still pondering on twisted vs separated. For the actual DC power feed to the booster it is irrevalent as it's pure DC.

From the booster to the track is where it gets tricky. Any conductor of given length generates a magnetic field based on direction and the right hand rule. Two conductors side by side where the currents are opposite the magnetic field cancels but there is capacitance. If spread apart enough, the capacitance is nullified and magnetic field is disregarded, just like the track spread.

For most of my projected layout I plan on using scale telephone poles for most wiring to keep it above ground. The command buss will be Cat5 twisted and the power will have 3 inch spread, just as in the rails so capacitance is null. I'll twist the feeds and for any power bus thats not spread I'll twist the leads as well.

Measure thrice, cut once!

Len Jaskiewicz

Garden layout wiring diagram

jazzmanlj
 

Hello all,

I'm in the planning stage for area of 150 X 100 feet. I'll be using the NCE 10A power Pro and MERG boosters configured for 10A each. Nominal voltage will be 22V and separate supply for each booster as well. Trying to visualize how to best distribute the power. The main bus will be either 12 or 14 ga as I have a bunch kicking around.

Does anyone have diagrams or links as examples I can use as a guideline?

Len Jaskiewicz

Automating Kato turnouts

dathfa@...
 

I have an N scale Kato layout with NCE DCC controlling all, including 5 PSX-AR auto-reversers for 4 reversing loops and 1 wye. Kato turnouts use DCC only with the Switch-Kat. (At this time, all my turnouts are manual.)
I want to know how to automate the turnouts in the reversing loops so that they switch automatically when the train returns to the turnout.
Does that make sense?
Thank you.
Dan Farrell

Re: cv's gone wrong

Mark Gurries
 

Oh....I see what your saying.    Creeping as in "moving slow" at a full throttle speed setting as oppose to just "moving at full throttle".

This would NOT be a DC problem because that always results in the engine taking off at full speed as if is was at full throttle.

Still if all of the engines are doing it at the same time, then there is some system wide problem. 


HARDWARE:

The only thing I can think of is the track voltage is to low to allow the engine to run at full speed.

SOFTWARE:

I suspect the answer will involve checking the CV value related to motor control such as CV's for Mid and/or Max.   IF this is true for all of the engines, then there are ways this can happen.

I do not know what DCC system he is using, but as a way to see how it could happen

1) NCe Power Pro and PowerCab:  The only way he could with a single command that would cause all of the engine to change a CV would be if the operator got into "Programming On the Main" menu, pressed "0" for "Broadcast" programming, see a warning...ignore it, and proceed to change a motor CV.  Instead of changing one locomotive's CV value, he would have change that same CV on all the engines that are sitting on live track power.  

2) NCE PowerCab only:  Entered into Programming Track mode without taking off all of the engines he does NOT want to program off the layout and proceeds to program.

3) Digitrax Zephyr:  Blast Mode programming.  Same as #2 for Power Cab.


On Feb 26, 2014, at 12:57 PM, Ed S wrote:



Mark,

I agree that it looks like it is not a decoder problem.  But I believe the owner meant to say "my engines are just creeping  ...[when I have them].... at full throttle".  Would this still be some sort of DC problem or a command station problem?

Ed S


 At 01:33 PM 2/26/2014, you wrote:
  

On Feb 25, 2014, at 4:58 PM, < fixerup1054@...> < fixerup1054@...> wrote:

hello all hope you are enjoying your layouts I was until I hit the wrong buttons on the controller and all my engines are just creeping at full throttle can anyone help me get my layout up running again its making me very unhappy to do the wrong cv's and don't know how it happened and how to change it back is it the throttle or is it the engines would be very thankful for your help thanks B.N.S.F. pete

If ALL of you engine suddenly take off together, it does NOT sound like a decoder problem but a layout electrical problem.

Do you by chance still have a DC throttle connected to the layout or more specifically do you have anything other than JUST your DCC system connected to the track?

Did you recently do any wiring with the layout?   

What did you do between the last time you ran the layout without problems and now?

The symptom sound like there is some form of DC power on the track....at least the decoder do.   Some devices left connected to the track that have nothing to do with DCC operation can confuse decoders into thinking they are seeing DC and take off at full speed.

Although you can disable this DC operation feature in each decoder, the real problem is to find out why all of a sudden this is happening and fix the root cause.

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Re: cv's gone wrong

Flash Gordon
 

Mark,

I agree that it looks like it is not a decoder problem.  But I believe the owner meant to say "my engines are just creeping  ...[when I have them].... at full throttle".  Would this still be some sort of DC problem or a command station problem?

Ed S


 At 01:33 PM 2/26/2014, you wrote:
 

On Feb 25, 2014, at 4:58 PM, < fixerup1054@...> < fixerup1054@...> wrote:

hello all hope you are enjoying your layouts I was until I hit the wrong buttons on the controller and all my engines are just creeping at full throttle can anyone help me get my layout up running again its making me very unhappy to do the wrong cv's and don't know how it happened and how to change it back is it the throttle or is it the engines would be very thankful for your help thanks B.N.S.F. pete

If ALL of you engine suddenly take off together, it does NOT sound like a decoder problem but a layout electrical problem.

Do you by chance still have a DC throttle connected to the layout or more specifically do you have anything other than JUST your DCC system connected to the track?

Did you recently do any wiring with the layout?  

What did you do between the last time you ran the layout without problems and now?

The symptom sound like there is some form of DC power on the track....at least the decoder do.   Some devices left connected to the track that have nothing to do with DCC operation can confuse decoders into thinking they are seeing DC and take off at full speed.

Although you can disable this DC operation feature in each decoder, the real problem is to find out why all of a sudden this is happening and fix the root cause.

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com

Re: cv's gone wrong

Mark Gurries
 

On Feb 25, 2014, at 4:58 PM, <fixerup1054@...> <fixerup1054@...> wrote:

hello all hope you are enjoying your layouts I was until I hit the wrong buttons on the controller and all my engines are just creeping at full throttle can anyone help me get my layout up running again its making me very unhappy to do the wrong cv's and don't know how it happened and how to change it back is it the throttle or is it the engines would be very thankful for your help thanks B.N.S.F. pete 

If ALL of you engine suddenly take off together, it does NOT sound like a decoder problem but a layout electrical problem.

Do you by chance still have a DC throttle connected to the layout or more specifically do you have anything other than JUST your DCC system connected to the track?

Did you recently do any wiring with the layout?   

What did you do between the last time you ran the layout without problems and now?

The symptom sound like there is some form of DC power on the track....at least the decoder do.   Some devices left connected to the track that have nothing to do with DCC operation can confuse decoders into thinking they are seeing DC and take off at full speed.

Although you can disable this DC operation feature in each decoder, the real problem is to find out why all of a sudden this is happening and fix the root cause.

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Re: cv's gone wrong

Ross Kudlick
 

Pete,

 

What DCC system/model are you using.  This sounds like a “system” issue, not a decoder issue.

 

For example, the Digitrax Zephyr system has a “speed limiter” setting for the built-in throttle that you may have activated.  You would need to turn it back off.

 

I’m not sure if any other system has a similar feature.

 

Give us some specifics so we can help you.

 

Since this is affecting all locomotives, it is not likely a decoder CV issue; I would not start resetting decoders at this point.

 

Regards,

 

Ross Kudlick

 


From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] On Behalf Of fixerup1054@...
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 7:58 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] cv's gone wrong

 

 

hello all hope you are enjoying your layouts I was until I hit the wrong buttons on the controller and all my engines are just creeping at full throttle can anyone help me get my layout up running again its making me very unhappy to do the wrong cv's and don't know how it happened and how to change it back is it the throttle or is it the engines would be very thankful for your help thanks B.N.S.F. pete

Re: cv's gone wrong

Rna
 

Hello Pete
It sounds like  that your central unit send full DC out on the track.
If your engines are set to run om dc “CV 29 bit 2 (4)” they all vill run att full speed.
Arne
 

Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:58 AM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] cv's gone wrong
 
 

hello all hope you are enjoying your layouts I was until I hit the wrong buttons on the controller and all my engines are just creeping at full throttle can anyone help me get my layout up running again its making me very unhappy to do the wrong cv's and don't know how it happened and how to change it back is it the throttle or is it the engines would be very thankful for your help thanks B.N.S.F. pete

Re: cv's gone wrong

john
 

Pete,
   Easy Peasy, somewhere in your information you have a CV, the activation of that CV will return all your settings to factory. The information came with your decoder.
john


 

From: "fixerup1054@..."
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 7:58 PM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] cv's gone wrong



hello all hope you are enjoying your layouts I was until I hit the wrong buttons on the controller and all my engines are just creeping at full throttle can anyone help me get my layout up running again its making me very unhappy to do the wrong cv's and don't know how it happened and how to change it back is it the throttle or is it the engines would be very thankful for your help thanks B.N.S.F. pete



Re: cv's gone wrong

Flash Gordon
 

Hello Pete,

I am not trying to chase you away but each DDC command system is different. You may get better answers if you join the group that uses your specific type of controller. You will probably be told to set all the decoders back to factory settings, then start over. How to do that depends on the manufaturer.

Ed S

At 07:58 PM 2/25/2014, you wrote:


hello all hope you are enjoying your layouts I was until I hit the wrong buttons on the controller and all my engines are just creeping at full throttle can anyone help me get my layout up running again its making me very unhappy to do the wrong cv's and don't know how it happened and how to change it back is it the throttle or is it the engines would be very thankful for your help thanks B.N.S.F. pete

cv's gone wrong

Peter Graham
 

hello all hope you are enjoying your layouts I was until I hit the wrong buttons on the controller and all my engines are just creeping at full throttle can anyone help me get my layout up running again its making me very unhappy to do the wrong cv's and don't know how it happened and how to change it back is it the throttle or is it the engines would be very thankful for your help thanks B.N.S.F. pete

Re: Two motors

Flash Gordon
 

John,

The GG1 my favorite loco. You should have plenty of room in there for a big decoder. I have several GG1's in HO scale and I know they are roomy.

Ed S


...At 03:21 PM 2/25/2014, you wrote:



Thanks for the info. It should be okay, then. The two motors are identical Pitmans wired in parallel. The decoder is QSI and can amply handle the amps. Its an O scale GG-1.

John

Re: Two motors

John Bishop
 

--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 2/25/14, keith.woodbridge@... <keith.woodbridge@...> wrote:

Subject: [WiringForDCC] RE: Two motors
To: WiringForDCC@...
Date: Tuesday, February 25, 2014, 8:19 AM



Thanks for the info. It should be okay, then. The two motors are identical Pitmans wired in parallel. The decoder is QSI and can amply handle the amps. Its an O scale GG-1.

John












 









Hi John,
You should have a good reason for doing this because there
are some drawbacks. Firstly, the good news is that the two
motors should be wired in parallel and will run well
together, if they are similar, much like they would have
done on DC, even with BEMF turned on. So, from that point of
view, you may find that you like the combination and it
could produce a good smooth running outfit, mine certainly
ran well.
The bad news is, firstly you must ensure that the decoder is
able to deliver the current. I ran an Athearn RTR F7 A and B
unit like this for a couple of years but the current was
near the limit of the Lenz Standard decoder particularly
when cold and had a habit of shutting down. Of course, the
Athearn motors are current hungry so with a later motor,
this will be less of a problem.The second issue for me was
the permanent coupling of the two locos was a pain if you
wanted to remove them from the track. I also found that
connecting the track pickup wires across the two units was
beneficial, especially on dirty track. Therefore you end up
with four wires between the locos, more if you want lights.
Eventually, I fitted a second decoder.
Having said all that, you won't know until you try and
you can always add another decoder later if you don't
like it.
Best of luck,
Keith

Re: R/C network or snubber

Mark Gurries
 

Ouch!! 

On Feb 25, 2014, at 9:46 AM, <dvollrath@...> <dvollrath@...> wrote:



I noticed that ITW/Paktron and CDE have the same single item R/C snubber part in their catalogs. 0.1 uFD, 100 ohms, 1/2 watt.  Perfect for the simple DCC application I was thinking... Then I saw that Digikey was selling them for $8.30 each as p/n 338-2581-ND. No wonder we make our own with separately available parts for less than a dollar!

DonV 




Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



R/C network or snubber

dvollrath@...
 

I noticed that ITW/Paktron and CDE have the same single item R/C snubber part in their catalogs. 0.1 uFD, 100 ohms, 1/2 watt.  Perfect for the simple DCC application I was thinking... Then I saw that Digikey was selling them for $8.30 each as p/n 338-2581-ND. No wonder we make our own with separately available parts for less than a dollar!

DonV 

Re: Two motors

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

An interesting perspective Keith. I was not thinking of coupled A & B units with one motor each. My thinking was that the question was related to larger MRR scales where one might find one motor per truck in the same loco unit. You are right in connecting the motors in parallel to a single decoder with 2 wires between units… Plus using another 2 wires to connect the truck pick-ups on both units together for better overall pick-up for the decoder. Use a 4-pin connector or two 2 pin connectors (with the polarity reversed to prevent misconnection) between the units. Wire flexibility becomes a problem on HO and smaller scales. You can use BEMF controls for 1 decoder powering 2 motors in parallel.

 

If you go the route of a decoder in each unit, it still pays to have the 2 conductor ‘MU’ cable to connect track pick-ups together between them. One method is to use identical decoders set to the same address with the exact same CV settings (use POM for all adjustments). Another method is to set the decoders to different addresses but then always run them together in a consist. If using 2 decoders, BEMF controls should be turned off on at least one unit or they may be continually bumping the couplers as they fight one another. The 2 decoder method also works better for sound in only the B unit as there is more hidden room to work with for a speaker, but far more fiddling with CVs to get the sound and non-sound decoder to speed track. (The exact reason Soundtraxx also has a non-sound Tsunami.)

 

I fabricated a short drawbar out of brass strip to replace the couplers for more realistic distance between permanently coupled A & B F units.

 

DonV    

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] On Behalf Of keith.woodbridge@...
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 10:20 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] RE: Two motors

 



Hi John,
You should have a good reason for doing this because there are some drawbacks. Firstly, the good news is that the two motors should be wired in parallel and will run well together, if they are similar, much like they would have done on DC, even with BEMF turned on. So, from that point of view, you may find that you like the combination and it could produce a good smooth running outfit, mine certainly ran well.
The bad news is, firstly you must ensure that the decoder is able to deliver the current. I ran an Athearn RTR F7 A and B unit like this for a couple of years but the current was near the limit of the Lenz Standard decoder particularly when cold and had a habit of shutting down. Of course, the Athearn motors are current hungry so with a later motor, this will be less of a problem.The second issue for me was the permanent coupling of the two locos was a pain if you wanted to remove them from the track. I also found that connecting the track pickup wires across the two units was beneficial, especially on dirty track. Therefore you end up with four wires between the locos, more if you want lights. Eventually, I fitted a second decoder.
Having said all that, you won't know until you try and you can always add another decoder later if you don't like it.
Best of luck,
Keith


Re: Two motors

Keith Woodbridge
 

Hi John,
You should have a good reason for doing this because there are some drawbacks. Firstly, the good news is that the two motors should be wired in parallel and will run well together, if they are similar, much like they would have done on DC, even with BEMF turned on. So, from that point of view, you may find that you like the combination and it could produce a good smooth running outfit, mine certainly ran well.
The bad news is, firstly you must ensure that the decoder is able to deliver the current. I ran an Athearn RTR F7 A and B unit like this for a couple of years but the current was near the limit of the Lenz Standard decoder particularly when cold and had a habit of shutting down. Of course, the Athearn motors are current hungry so with a later motor, this will be less of a problem.The second issue for me was the permanent coupling of the two locos was a pain if you wanted to remove them from the track. I also found that connecting the track pickup wires across the two units was beneficial, especially on dirty track. Therefore you end up with four wires between the locos, more if you want lights. Eventually, I fitted a second decoder.
Having said all that, you won't know until you try and you can always add another decoder later if you don't like it.
Best of luck,
Keith

Re: Two motors

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

There are several factors a play here. A single decoder must be able to handle the current drawn by both motors. Look at the amp requirements of the motors and then find a single decoder, or one with an output amplifier to meet or beat those requirements. If you can find one big enough, wire the motors in parallel. Two motors connected in parallel should be well matched as to make & model and track in speed using the same gearing ratio to the rails. If they do not track well, they will be forced to run at the same rpm at rail speed but may not share load current very well. Do not connect the motors in series.

 

If you cannot find a single decoder big enough to handle the amp rating of both motors connected in parallel, the next idea would be to use two separate decoders. This may appear to be a better solution, but both motors as well as both decoders should be identical…. AND the voltage output to the motor vs all DCC throttle step setting CVs should be the same. Turn off all BEMF compensation to avoid the two units fighting one another. Make sure both decoders are wired to the same power pick-ups to ensure they are always powered together.

 

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] On Behalf Of snboy2001@...
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 12:49 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Two motors

 



I have heard that for an engine using two motors it is best to have two two separate decoders. Does anyone have any info or advise on this?
Thanks.
John Bishop


Two motors

John Bishop
 

I have heard that for an engine using two motors it is best to have two two separate decoders. Does anyone have any info or advise on this?
Thanks.
John Bishop