Date   
Re: DCC

Flash Gordon
 

Harry,

Wireless throttles would not have the problem with interference from the track bus, they have their own set of problems.

In summary, I twist any track bus wire that I can. If for no other reason then to eliminate one variable.

3M connectors come in 3 sizes/ colors

Red to connect 22 to 16 gauge wire
Blue to connect 16 to 14 gauge wire
Yellow 12 to 10 gauge wire

These connectors are used to automobiles for alarm systems and lighting. A very harsh environment with movement and temperature changes. They are reliable if installed properly and only used once.

Soldering is the best connection, also if done correctly. But the connectors eliminate the problems with stripping the middle of a wire as in a track bus.

Ed S

At 10:08 AM 2/23/2014, you wrote:


Hi Everybody,

It seems my list of questions is dwindelling down. People have mentioned to keep the power bus away from the control bus. My interpatation is this--- the power bus comes from the command and/or booster unit and supplies power to the rails. The control bus connects the command and/or booster to the throttles. This wiring would run from the command unit to all the throttle jacks around the layout. What if your using just wireless throttles?? Lastly, If I am not using any detection units I dont have to twist the bus wire? And they can be run together with no distance between them?

Harry

DCC Bus Supply for Turnout Control/Decoder

Chris Richter
 

In the copious notes I have taken in the last 2 years in prep to start building my layout, I find a note (no source that I noted) telling me I should think about having separate buses to supply power to my Tortoise Machines and associated decoders. My plan calls for 6 power districts across 2 boosters (districts split 3/3). Current plan on the Tortoises is 20 off one booster and 15 on the other. My layout is spread across 3 levels. One level of my layout has 60% of all the turnouts and the design split is 7 on one booster and 14 on the other (due to distances involved). 

As I recall I got this notion due to the possibility of a short in a district shutting down that district and freezing a turnout. I make not claim on the validity of my memory on this however as my approaching 60th may have something to do with my memory... This is an HO layout.

My question is then: Can I draw my power as I planned from my Main Buses or should I run separate buses to supply this power.  This will largely be a single operator setup and no more than 4-6 trains in operation at a time. My preference is to leave my plan as it is and draw from my Main Bus, but I welcome advice and guidance.

Thanks, Chris

DCC

harfrompa2@...
 

Hi Everybody,

It seems my list of questions is dwindelling down. People have mentioned to keep the power bus away from the control bus. My interpatation is this--- the power bus comes from the command and/or booster unit and supplies power to the rails. The control bus connects the command and/or booster to the throttles. This wiring would run from the command unit to all the throttle jacks around the layout. What if your using just wireless throttles?? Lastly, If I am not using any detection units I dont have to twist the bus wire? And they can be run together with no distance between them? 

Harry

Re: wiring

harfrompa2@...
 

Mark, 

Thanks for the info, especially the part about the suitcase connectors for two different size's of wire. No One had ever mentioned them before and I just assumed they were only available for use on the same size wire. One recomendation was to use a size between the size of the wire (#12 and #18, use a #16 connector). Im no electrical wizard but I know that's just two wrongs trying to get it right. 

Harry 

Re: wiring

Blayne & Anne
 

This question is probably harder to ask than it is to answer. If I run my track bus along the back side of the 2' to 3' deep layout can I run the sub bus to the front of the layout to get the circuit breaker and on/off switch on the facia and then back to the center to continue the sub bus. Should the breaker be before or after the on/off switch for the sub bus? 

Blayne Olsen
Monroe, NC

Re: wiring

Mark Gurries
 

That is fine.

There is nothing magic about 6".  It just a nice easy number to remember that makes it clear to people to keep them apart.  

It is true that the further apart they are the better.  But from a pure electrical point of view, there is nothing more gained by increasing the distance beyond 6 inches....Your well past the point of gaining any further improvement that means anything.

That said, my recommendation is to run the track busses in the back or center of the layout and run all the non track buses around the perimeter or front of the layout.   The default distance created by the layouts mechanical design more than satisfies the separation distance requirement and you do not have to measure anything!


On Feb 22, 2014, at 10:28 PM, Ed S wrote:

Mark,

I mentioned that track bus wire and throttle network wires should be kept 6" apart. I got that info from the "wiringfordcc" website.


"What to do about interference:

Keep your throttle and booster network wiring as far as possible from your bus wires. I don't mean they have to be on the opposite side of the room. But if you can separate them by just 6" (154mm), it will make a huge difference. If you can separate them 12" (308mm), that will be four times better."

 


 At 12:28 AM 2/23/2014, you wrote:
  

On Feb 22, 2014, at 9:36 AM, <harfrompa2@...> <harfrompa2@...> wrote:

Hi Everybody,

I have some more questions, again. I have been reading different articles, books and posts regarding DCC systems. I think I have gotten past the confusion of "keep the bus wires seperated but if you have to run them longer, wrap them around each other". 

Definition:  Track Bus = 2 wires that carry power to the track and back.  On wire for each rail.  Electrically gets it power from a booster or command station's track terminals.  (DCC circuit breaker do not generate power.  They only pass it on.)

It is best to chose two different colors for each wire of the given track bus that will help you identify which rail the wire will connect to. 

There is NO requirement to keep the two wire of a track bus seperated at all.   You can twist them anyway if you desire regardless of how long they are. 

IF your NOT doing any type of occupancy detection (AKA signals), there is no ELECTRICAL reason to keep the wires apart regardless of how long the bus is.  

The only advantage of keeping the track bus wires apart is a ease of connecting them to the track feeders but even that is a weak answer.   Why?  When you encounter a place where the track feeders need to connect to the twisted track bus, simply separate the two wires of the twisted track bus right at that location such that it makes it easy to add your suitcase connector at that location. 

Some people like to be able to break connection to the track to help locate shorts.    If this is a requirement, do you breaking at the sub-bus tap point at the terminal strip.  This will isolate the problem to a module but not effect other modules.

I am planning on building the layout in "module's" even thought it would never be moved. At one end I would like to have a terminal strip to connect the wiring from adjoining sections.

My first club was module based.   How long are the modules?    If they are 4ft, I simply installed track feeders at each
Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com






Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Re: wiring

Flash Gordon
 

Mark,

I mentioned that track bus wire and throttle network wires should be kept 6" apart. I got that info from the "wiringfordcc" website.


"What to do about interference:

Keep your throttle and booster network wiring as far as possible from your bus wires. I don't mean they have to be on the opposite side of the room. But if you can separate them by just 6" (154mm), it will make a huge difference. If you can separate them 12" (308mm), that will be four times better."

 


 At 12:28 AM 2/23/2014, you wrote:
 

On Feb 22, 2014, at 9:36 AM, <harfrompa2@...> <harfrompa2@...> wrote:

Hi Everybody,

I have some more questions, again. I have been reading different articles, books and posts regarding DCC systems. I think I have gotten past the confusion of "keep the bus wires seperated but if you have to run them longer, wrap them around each other". 

Definition:  Track Bus = 2 wires that carry power to the track and back.  On wire for each rail.  Electrically gets it power from a booster or command station's track terminals.  (DCC circuit breaker do not generate power.  They only pass it on.)

It is best to chose two different colors for each wire of the given track bus that will help you identify which rail the wire will connect to.

There is NO requirement to keep the two wire of a track bus seperated at all.   You can twist them anyway if you desire regardless of how long they are. 

IF your NOT doing any type of occupancy detection (AKA signals), there is no ELECTRICAL reason to keep the wires apart regardless of how long the bus is. 

The only advantage of keeping the track bus wires apart is a ease of connecting them to the track feeders but even that is a weak answer.   Why?  When you encounter a place where the track feeders need to connect to the twisted track bus, simply separate the two wires of the twisted track bus right at that location such that it makes it easy to add your suitcase connector at that location.

Some people like to be able to break connection to the track to help locate shorts.    If this is a requirement, do you breaking at the sub-bus tap point at the terminal strip.  This will isolate the problem to a module but not effect other modules.

I am planning on building the layout in "module's" even thought it would never be moved. At one end I would like to have a terminal strip to connect the wiring from adjoining sections.

My first club was module based.   How long are the modules?    If they are 4ft, I simply installed track feeders at each
Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Re: wiring

Mark Gurries
 

On Feb 22, 2014, at 9:36 AM, <harfrompa2@...> <harfrompa2@...> wrote:

Hi Everybody,

I have some more questions, again. I have been reading different articles, books and posts regarding DCC systems. I think I have gotten past the confusion of "keep the bus wires seperated but if you have to run them longer, wrap them around each other".  

Definition:  Track Bus = 2 wires that carry power to the track and back.  On wire for each rail.  Electrically gets it power from a booster or command station's track terminals.  (DCC circuit breaker do not generate power.  They only pass it on.)

It is best to chose two different colors for each wire of the given track bus that will help you identify which rail the wire will connect to. 

There is NO requirement to keep the two wire of a track bus seperated at all.   You can twist them anyway if you desire regardless of how long they are.  

IF your NOT doing any type of occupancy detection (AKA signals), there is no ELECTRICAL reason to keep the wires apart regardless of how long the bus is.  

The only advantage of keeping the track bus wires apart is a ease of connecting them to the track feeders but even that is a weak answer.   Why?  When you encounter a place where the track feeders need to connect to the twisted track bus, simply separate the two wires of the twisted track bus right at that location such that it makes it easy to add your suitcase connector at that location. 

Some people like to be able to break connection to the track to help locate shorts.    If this is a requirement, do you breaking at the sub-bus tap point at the terminal strip.  This will isolate the problem to a module but not effect other modules.

I am planning on building the layout in "module's" even thought it would never be moved. At one end I would like to have a terminal strip to connect the wiring from adjoining sections.

My first club was module based.   How long are the modules?    If they are 4ft, I simply installed track feeders at each end of each module and have them connect to the track bus the feeds power to them right at the terminal strip.  No need to tap into the track bus at all.  Hence you can run 4ft+ of twisted track bus from one terminals strip at one end to the other end.

Obviolsy the bus wires would be close to each other at the terminal strip, is there a problem with this?

Assuming there is no occupancy detection, track bus wires will not interfere with other track bus wires.   You do not need to worry about how close multiple track bus wires get to each other.  Feed free to group them together to make your wire routing easy.

The only wires you want to keep away from ANY given track bus wire is any control wiring or throttle bus wiring. In other words, if the wires in question are NOT carrying DCC track power, then keep them away from the wires that do.

I would also like to have each module as a sub-bus (sub-district), should I have the red sub-bus and red bus wires adjecent to each other or is this a problem?

Nope.   See above.

You can tap the sub bus off right at the terminal strips on one end or the other.   No need to use Suitcase connectors.   What you should do is use crimp lugs on the ends of all the track bus wires that will tie to the terminal strip.   If you do that.  please buy a "latching" crimper.   Most people UNDER crimp a crimp lug connection.  It will seem very hard at first if you never done one.   The latching crimper, although more expensive than a non latching one, will GUARANTEE the crimp will be reliable because it will not release until the crimp is done correctly.   (This assumes you stripped the wire properly and place the wire correctly in the crimp.)  But once you have done some crimps, you will get use to the force involved.    Still not easy, but can be done.  Crimping is still far faster than soldering.

If you have determined that crimping is to hard for physical reasons, you can solder the wire to the crimp lugs.   Soldering crimp lugs is NOT acceptable at all in the manufacturing world but I know it works "good enough" for model railroading purposes.  Just make sure you have done a good soldering job.  To be clear, this is "Plan B".  A proper crimp will outlast a soldered one in the real world.  No solder cold flow issues.

Lastly, for this post anyway, I notice some people recomend using suitcase connectors to join bus wires to feeder wires even thought they are two different gauges of wire. No matter how I look at this, it seems like a bad connection.

If you follow the rules for suitcase connectors, it is GUARANTEED to be a reliable connection no matter how it looks.  Looks do not count.  Performance and reliability do.  The rules are all about making sure you use the right AWG wire on the correct side of the Suitcase connector.   If you violate those manufacturing rules, then you will have problem.

Example:   3M ScotchLok 567 is a dual AWG suitcase tap connector.  There is a 10-12AWG run through wire side and a 14-18AWG tap side.   If you attempt to put 12AWG into the tap side, you will not make a good connection and it will not look good.  What you have done is violated the rules for that connector.   If you want to tap a 12AWG wire of another 12AWG, there is a different suitcase connector for that.

Solder seems like the way to go-- with the layout built in modules I can work on the wiring with the section turned up side down. Thanks for any input,

I agree, this will make soldering a lot safer option.

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Update to Wiring For DCC

wirefordcc
 

Two new topics have been added to the DCC for Beginners page of the Wiring For DCC website.  Beginner topics are intended to be a quick intro to a topic to answer basic questions without getting too deep. 


Signaling:

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/intro2dcc.htm#a34


Small Layouts:

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/intro2dcc.htm#a35


Allan Gartner

Wiring For DCC

Re: wiring

Flash Gordon
 

Harry,

The buss wires for the track, either main or sub should be close together. Untwist for a terminal block or a connection. But the command wire buss  needs to be separate (about 6 inches away), use a separate terminal block, the terminal blocks can be cut if you have long ones.

Suitcase connectors are popular and usually are made to hook two different wire sizes together. I have been looking at a different style of 3M connector. These are called T-tap connectors. The neat part is you can connect a 22 gauge wire to a 12 gauge if you want to by using the correct size of male connector. Also you can unplug these without disturbing the wire connection, eliminates the need for a switch.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/150-3M-T-Taps-Male-Insulated-Wire-Terminal-Connectors-/191053861924?pt=US_Car_Audio_Video_Connectors_Terminals&hash=item2c7bb29424

Of course soldering is best but is problematic if you have to trouble shoot a section.

Ed S

At 12:36 PM 2/22/2014, you wrote:
 

Hi Everybody,

I have some more questions, again. I have been reading different articles, books and posts regarding DCC systems. I think I have gotten past the confusion of "keep the bus wires seperated but if you have to run them longer, wrap them around each other".  I am planning on building the layout in "module's" even thought it would never be moved. At one end I would like to have a terminal strip to connect the wiring from adjoining sections. Obviolsy the bus wires would be close to each other at the terminal strip, is there a problem with this? I would also like to have each module as a sub-bus (sub-district), should I have the red sub-bus and red bus wires adjecent to each other or is this a problem? Lastly, for this post anyway, I notice some people recomend using suitcase connectors to join bus wires to feeder wires even thought they are two different gauges of wire. No matter how I look at this, it seems like a bad connection. Solder seems like the way to go-- with the layout built in modules I can work on the wiring with the section turned up side down. Thanks for any input,

Harry

wiring

harfrompa2@...
 

Hi Everybody,

I have some more questions, again. I have been reading different articles, books and posts regarding DCC systems. I think I have gotten past the confusion of "keep the bus wires seperated but if you have to run them longer, wrap them around each other".  I am planning on building the layout in "module's" even thought it would never be moved. At one end I would like to have a terminal strip to connect the wiring from adjoining sections. Obviolsy the bus wires would be close to each other at the terminal strip, is there a problem with this? I would also like to have each module as a sub-bus (sub-district), should I have the red sub-bus and red bus wires adjecent to each other or is this a problem? Lastly, for this post anyway, I notice some people recomend using suitcase connectors to join bus wires to feeder wires even thought they are two different gauges of wire. No matter how I look at this, it seems like a bad connection. Solder seems like the way to go-- with the layout built in modules I can work on the wiring with the section turned up side down. Thanks for any input,

Harry 

Re: Wiring DC Locos for DCC

randlhubbard@...
 

terryintexas7 stated that" isolating the motor from the fram is very important"

My question was "how do you do that?"
Others have since answered that question for me. Sorry for the confusion.

rgh

Re: Wiring DC Locos for DCC

Charles Zak
 

Try tape jungle.com

Charles K. Zak
P42Hogger@...

Re: Review

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

The booster control bus wires are point to point, booster to booster. It does not need terminators as there should be no unconnected ends.

The NCE cab bus contains RS485 signaling, but at a relatively low speed (19.2 kbaud iirc). It doesn’t really need termination either at that transmission speed, as when you plug a cab onto it, there is enough load imposed by the receiver for good reception for more than several hundred feet from the command station. Having a ‘T’ feed from the command station to a UTP to fan out the cab bus in several directions should not cause problems either. However, because the telco type wiring is relative small gauge there may be a need for a remote power supply to provide enough voltage to operate a cab/throttle when it is plugged in far away from the command station. Hence the UTP panels for have a provision in the back for doing so.

 

The Digitraxx LocoBus connections operate at a faster baud rate but there is a terminator on/at every gadget plugged onto it. So, again, there is no need to add a separate terminator to LocoNet.

 

The answer may be different with other brands.

 

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] On Behalf Of Mike
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 12:18 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: RE: [WiringForDCC] Re: Review

 




How about the command buss? Should it have  terminators / snubbers? Can it also function properly if it is a T type setup?

 

Mike G.

 

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] On Behalf Of Mark Gurries
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 12:31 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Re: Review

 

 

> On Feb 18, 2014, at 7:19 AM, Blayne & Anne wrote:

> I assume I missed it somewhere but what exactly is a snubber,

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm#problem_blown_solution

> why is it good to have,

It is part of this bigger topic.

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm#c2

> and where it available for purchase.

Radio Shack. See parts list in 1st link.

You may want to spend some time on the website that this list is all about.

http://www.wiringfordcc.com

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com

 




Re: Review

Flash Gordon
 

The command bus does not need termination, but it should be kept 6 inches away from power buss. Not sure what you mean by a T type setup.

Ed S

At 01:18 PM 2/20/2014, you wrote:


How about the command buss? Should it have terminators / snubbers? Can it also function properly if it is a T type setup?



Mike G.



Re: Review

emrldsky
 

How about the command buss? Should it have  terminators / snubbers? Can it also function properly if it is a T type setup?

 

Mike G.

 

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] On Behalf Of Mark Gurries
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 12:31 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Re: Review

 

 

> On Feb 18, 2014, at 7:19 AM, Blayne & Anne wrote:

> I assume I missed it somewhere but what exactly is a snubber,

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm#problem_blown_solution

> why is it good to have,

It is part of this bigger topic.

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm#c2

> and where it available for purchase.

Radio Shack. See parts list in 1st link.

You may want to spend some time on the website that this list is all about.

http://www.wiringfordcc.com

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com

Re: Wiring DC Locos for DCC

richg_1998@...
 

Kapton is much better than electrical tape but It can be punctured. I had a loco that needed the motor isolated. The frame had a tapped hole for the screw that was not smooth. A little filing smoothed out the surface at the hole. I used nylon screws to secure the motor to each frame half.

Tapping a hole will allow the metal to rise up a little.

Rich

Re: Wiring DC Locos for DCC

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

Kapton tape is a great electrical insulator. Thin, flexible yet mechanically strong so that it is not likely to become broken or punctured by sharp edges. Ordinary electrical tape will often come loose or ‘cold flow’ at points of pressure to become punctured. Do not use home office tape for the same reason.

I have often used a thin piece of ‘blister-pack’ plastic cut to fit under the motor as an insulator.   

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] On Behalf Of David Funk
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 9:47 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Wiring DC Locos for DCC

 




 

On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 5:04 PM, <richg_1998@...> wrote:

 

I use Kapton tape from DCC suppliers for insulating motor mounting points and nylon screws to mount the motor if the motor is open frame.

 

Shop around, Amazon or eBay.  One DCC supplier who claims 'competative prices' charges $14 for a $5 roll of tape.

 

 

 

 

-david 




Re: Wiring DC Locos for DCC

dwfunk4475
 


On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 5:04 PM, <richg_1998@...> wrote:

I use Kapton tape from DCC suppliers for insulating motor mounting points and nylon screws to mount the motor if the motor is open frame.


Shop around, Amazon or eBay.  One DCC supplier who claims 'competative prices' charges $14 for a $5 roll of tape.




-david 

Re: Wiring DC Locos for DCC

dwfunk4475
 


On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 8:04 AM, <randlhubbard@...> wrote:

how do you do that?


Do what??  

Methinks in your reply, you meant to quote something, but it's not here . . .



-david