Date   
Re: Digest Number 2173

John White
 

Hope jumping in on this with my question is okay. If not, my apologize. I'm an old time DC'er building a new layout and doing it in DCC. So I'm looking at using the AR-1 tto take care of my proposed Y track. no problem there. It leads to my proposed Turntable. Kind of like adding two things that I feel are a necessity for my 12 x 12 circle layout. My question, can I or is it possible to use one AR-1 to reverse both form the same AR-1?

Re: twisted bus wires next to each other

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

I would not expect any problems with running two twisted pairs of DCC bus feeders next to each other. They are basically carrying the same power signal and will have little crosstalk.

DonV

On Sep 29, 2014, at 11:28 PM, colorose@...<mailto:colorose@...> [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...<mailto:WiringForDCC@...>> wrote:




Does anyone have an opinion on running power busses close to each other for two power districts? I have some hidden staging track that is directly below my main yard, so I would like to have separate bus runs but of almost equal length for each of these two power districts. If I have both bus runs under the staging track, would there be any cross talk between the two busses? I plan to twist each bus separately, but then the twisted pairs would be next to each other.


Thanks,

Scott

twisted bus wires next to each other

Scott Rose
 

Does anyone have an opinion on running power busses close to each other for two power districts? I have some hidden staging track that is directly below my main yard, so I would like to have separate bus runs but of almost equal length for each of these two power districts. If I have both bus runs under the staging track, would there be any cross talk between the two busses?  I plan to twist each bus separately, but then the twisted pairs would be next to each other.


Thanks,

Scott

Re: Uhlenbrock 62000 LocoNet Cable Tester

Ross Kudlick
 

Jerry,

 

This looks like the same tester I bought at MicroCenter for about $5.

 

Search eBay for “RJ12 Tester;” you can get them in the $5 - $10 range shipping included!  I’ve had mine for several years; invaluable when troubleshooting an installed LocoNet!

 

Regards,

 

Ross Kudlick

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2014 12:20 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Uhlenbrock 62000 LocoNet Cable Tester

 

 

Anybody know of a US distributor for this tester, or have any comments about it?  I found one on ebay, but shipping from Germany was over $50.

 

Thanks!

 

Jerry Michels

Re: dedicated local bus drawing from Mark

Scott Rose
 

Thank you Mark. I can now see what you are talking about.


Regards,


Scott

-----Original Message-----
From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2014 8:37 PM
To: $WiringForDCC
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] dedicated local bus drawing from Mark


On Sep 26, 2014, at 8:02 PM, colorose@... [WiringForDCC]
<WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

At the "Wiring for DCC" website in the track wiring part II section, there
is a drawing from Mark that shows how to wire a dedicated local bus to break
the layout into blocks. It is what I would like to do to my new layout since
I am just starting to lay track.


Here is the section where the drawing is located: Block Wiring for Large
Layouts (V2.0)

I have a question about the wires going from the main bus to the local
bus. Can someone tell me if the reason they look like two wires is to
indicate a larger AWG required between the main and local bus?


What appears to you to be two small wires are actually the "edges" of a
single larger wire that is light in color like white. The wire is the same
gauge as the red wire and they are twisted together. My goal was to make
sure this image was clear printed on a black and white printer.


Best Regards,


Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com










------------------------------------


------------------------------------


http://www.WiringForDCC.com
------------------------------------


Yahoo Groups Links

Uhlenbrock 62000 LocoNet Cable Tester

asychis@...
 

Anybody know of a US distributor for this tester, or have any comments about it?  I found one on ebay, but shipping from Germany was over $50.
 
Thanks!
 
Jerry Michels

Re: dedicated local bus drawing from Mark

Mark Gurries
 

On Sep 26, 2014, at 8:02 PM, colorose@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

At the "Wiring for DCC" website in the track wiring part II section, there is a drawing from Mark that shows how to wire a dedicated local bus to break the layout into blocks. It is what I would like to do to my new layout since I am just starting to lay track.
Here is the section where the drawing is located: Block Wiring for Large Layouts (V2.0)

I have a question about the wires going from the main bus to the local bus. Can someone tell me if the reason they look like two wires is to indicate a larger AWG required between the main and local bus?
What appears to you to be two small wires are actually the “edges" of a single larger wire that is light in color like white. The wire is the same gauge as the red wire and they are twisted together. My goal was to make sure this image was clear printed on a black and white printer.

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com

Re: Copper Clad Aluminum wire for track bus

jazzmanlj
 

Verryl,

Some engineers do take the skin effect into account even at 10kHz!  As a designer I consider this extreme and absurd. 50 to 100kHz might be a starting point and that is only if losses are really important!

The entire conductor evenly shares the current pretty much evenly below lets say 20kHz.

For copper clad Al, mechanicals connections are a must. Soldering is out of the question as the heat can 'evaporate' the Cu plating.

Len Jaskiewicz

Re: Copper Clad Aluminum wire for track bus

Verryl
 

The conductivity is a surface phenomenon (skin effect) only at very high frequencies.  At the 15.7KHz (about as I remember) the skin effect is negligible, so the inner copper would do most of the conducting. 

The how to solder, clamp, etc is a bigger problem.  Your savings would probable evaporate with the number suitcase connectors needed (if they work).  Depending on the Al coating thickness, larger wire would not be needed (unless it was all Al wire).  A lot of trouble to file off the Al at each solder joint to get down to the copper to solder, I would think.

Verryl Fosnight

The purpose of the Yahoo Group at https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/WyoDivOps/    is for my convenience to manage invitations and reservations and to file documents about how to operate on the Wyoming Division.  It takes a lot of my time away from modeling to manage a session, and this Group will simplify it greatly for me.  This Group is NOT for general information, so I ask you NOT try to join unless you intend to operate occasionally.  That is why I limit membership to this Group to only those who might operate on the Wyoming Division.

I want to OK your membership to the new group if it is the right Group for you (as an operator), but since we become close operating together and communicating about the layout, I also need to know your name.  As soon as I get it and confirmation that you may someday operate, I will OK you.
If you only desire general information about the Wyoming Division, I have two other sites for those with general interest, and Lorne Noyes has a third.

Verryl Fosnight
Wyoming Division, a 4,000 sq foot HO layout for ops
  http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/wyoming_division/  and there is no approval requirement to
photos posted with extensive captions at http:/verrylvfosnightjr.slickpic.com

dedicated local bus drawing from Mark

Scott Rose
 

At the "Wiring for DCC" website in the track wiring part II section, there is a drawing from Mark that shows how to wire a dedicated local bus to break the layout into blocks. It is what I would like to do to my new layout since I am just starting to lay track.

I really appreciate Mark's contribution. I have a question about the wires going from the main bus to the local bus.  Can someone tell me if the reason they look like two wires is to indicate a larger AWG required between the main and local bus?

                Here is the section where the drawing is located.

Block Wiring for Large Layouts (V2.0)   Contributed by Mark Gurries


Thanks,

Scott In Colorado


Re: Copper Clad Aluminum wire for track bus

Tim Johnson
 

Thanks, Ken. Yeah, it's been way too long ago since I studied this stuff.
Tim
Timothy A Johnson, Tucson, AZ (www.sbb-bls-bahnen.com)
European Train Enthusiasts, Central Arizona Chapter (www.ete.org)
On 9/26/2014 3:02 PM, len.jask@... [WiringForDCC] wrote:

 

Tim,

Conductivity is merely the reciprocal of resistivity. There are charts listed on the web for various metals.


Conduction on the outside surface is frequency related and called skin effect. For a given conductor size At DC the entire conductor passes current. As frequency is increased the current tends to migrate towards the outer areas and the center is dormant/wasted metal. This normally starts to slowly kick in starting at 50kHz and higher. That's why they came up with what is called Litz wire which is multiple strand of small enameled wire twisted. At the frequency of DCC which is about 8kHz, skin effect ins miniscule!


The copper coating is there more for galvanic purposes in higher voltage and current. The current is mainly flowing in the Aluminum.

Len Jaskiewicz


Re: Copper Clad Aluminum wire for track bus

Charles Brumbelow
 

High voltage high frequency is surface conduction, which is one reason long distance transmission lines are stranded - more surface area. Low voltage low frequency is through the wire. At least this is what an ancient often wrong memory tells me. Charles 

On Sep 26, 2014, at 4:24 PM, "SBB_BLS_Bahnen@... [WiringForDCC]" <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

Len, isn't conductivity a surface phenomenon? I would think the copper surface over the AL would have the same resistance characteristics as all copper. What am I missing from my physics education (maybe loss of memory :-) )
--
Tim
Timothy A Johnson, Tucson, AZ (www.sbb-bls-bahnen.com)
European Train Enthusiasts, Central Arizona Chapter (www.ete.org)

---In WiringForDCC@..., wrote :

The resistance is higher but not really double. Definitely less resistance than brass rail! If you go with heavier Al than Cu wire than it should be equivalent! Even without copper coating the voltages and currents are so low there should be negligible galvanic effect.

I doing a large scale layout and have mostly Al rails. Cheaper cost and better conductivity than brass!

 

Len Jaskiewicz

 

Re: Copper Clad Aluminum wire for track bus

jazzmanlj
 

Tim,

Conductivity is merely the reciprocal of resistivity. There are charts listed on the web for various metals.


Conduction on the outside surface is frequency related and called skin effect. For a given conductor size At DC the entire conductor passes current. As frequency is increased the current tends to migrate towards the outer areas and the center is dormant/wasted metal. This normally starts to slowly kick in starting at 50kHz and higher. That's why they came up with what is called Litz wire which is multiple strand of small enameled wire twisted. At the frequency of DCC which is about 8kHz, skin effect ins miniscule!


The copper coating is there more for galvanic purposes in higher voltage and current. The current is mainly flowing in the Aluminum.

Len Jaskiewicz

Re: Copper Clad Aluminum wire for track bus

john
 

   My question is how are you going to make connections. You can't solder, wire nuts wont work long unless they are greased, suitcase connectors are out. and aluminum wire doesn't hold up to kinks, vibration, or bending more than once or twice.
   It takes a wire size bigger to carry current so 10 gage instead of 12, or 14 instead of 16. How will you attach feeders.
john



On Friday, September 26, 2014 5:24 PM, "SBB_BLS_Bahnen@... [WiringForDCC]" wrote:




Len, isn't conductivity a surface phenomenon? I would think the copper surface over the AL would have the same resistance characteristics as all copper. What am I missing from my physics education (maybe loss of memory :-) )
--
Tim
Timothy A Johnson, Tucson, AZ (www.sbb-bls-bahnen.com)
European Train Enthusiasts, Central Arizona Chapter (www.ete.org)

---In WiringForDCC@..., wrote :

The resistance is higher but not really double. Definitely less resistance than brass rail! If you go with heavier Al than Cu wire than it should be equivalent! Even without copper coating the voltages and currents are so low there should be negligible galvanic effect.
I doing a large scale layout and have mostly Al rails. Cheaper cost and better conductivity than brass!
 
Len Jaskiewicz
 




Re: Copper Clad Aluminum wire for track bus

Tim Johnson
 

Len, isn't conductivity a surface phenomenon? I would think the copper surface over the AL would have the same resistance characteristics as all copper. What am I missing from my physics education (maybe loss of memory :-) )
-- 
Tim
Timothy A Johnson, Tucson, AZ (www.sbb-bls-bahnen.com)
European Train Enthusiasts, Central Arizona Chapter (www.ete.org)

---In WiringForDCC@..., <len.jask@...> wrote :

The resistance is higher but not really double. Definitely less resistance than brass rail! If you go with heavier Al than Cu wire than it should be equivalent! Even without copper coating the voltages and currents are so low there should be negligible galvanic effect.

I doing a large scale layout and have mostly Al rails. Cheaper cost and better conductivity than brass!

 

Len Jaskiewicz

 

Re: Copper Clad Aluminum wire for track bus

jazzmanlj
 

The resistance is higher but not really double. Definitely less resistance than brass rail! If you go with heavier Al than Cu wire than it should be equivalent! Even without copper coating the voltages and currents are so low there should be negligible galvanic effect.

I doing a large scale layout and have mostly Al rails. Cheaper cost and better conductivity than brass!

 

Len Jaskiewicz

Re: Copper Clad Aluminum wire for track bus

Charles Brumbelow
 

Example from eBay...

Look at this on eBay:


100 FT 10 AWG GAUGE ZIP SPEAKER WIRE RED BLACK STRANDED COPPER POWER GROUND

Charles

On Sep 25, 2014, at 7:30 PM, "colorose@... [WiringForDCC]" <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

Has anyone tried to use Copper Clad Aluminum for their track bus?  I've read that the resistance is double that of copper which would be a problem for my long runs.  It's definitely cheaper, but I'm concerned about DCC and what downsides CCA might have with signal integrity and current capability.

thanks,

Scott in Colorado

Re: Copper Clad Aluminum wire for track bus

Charles Brumbelow
 

How much cheaper and how much and what size that the cost difference is really a consideration? Thanks. Charles

On Sep 25, 2014, at 7:30 PM, "colorose@... [WiringForDCC]" <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

Has anyone tried to use Copper Clad Aluminum for their track bus?  I've read that the resistance is double that of copper which would be a problem for my long runs.  It's definitely cheaper, but I'm concerned about DCC and what downsides CCA might have with signal integrity and current capability.

thanks,

Scott in Colorado

Copper Clad Aluminum wire for track bus

Scott Rose
 

Has anyone tried to use Copper Clad Aluminum for their track bus?  I've read that the resistance is double that of copper which would be a problem for my long runs.  It's definitely cheaper, but I'm concerned about DCC and what downsides CCA might have with signal integrity and current capability.

thanks,

Scott in Colorado

Re: Digest Number 2173

Marvin Pankaskie
 

Thanks to all who helped resolve my wiring problem. Putting a Y connection in and running all loop feeds off of the AR1 reversing terminal solved the problem and my locos now run smooth with full track power.

 

Marvin Pankaskie

Rochester, NY 14450

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 3:50 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Digest Number 2173

 

5 Messages

Digest #2173

1a

Expanding a Reverse Loop by "Marvin Pankaskie" marvinpankaskie

1b

Re: Expanding a Reverse Loop by "Mark Gurries" gurriesm

1c

Re: Expanding a Reverse Loop by "Vollrath, Don" donevol

1d

Re: Expanding a Reverse Loop by "Steve Haas" goatfisher

1e

Re: Expanding a Reverse Loop by "Vollrath, Don" donevol

Messages

Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:02 pm (PDT) . Posted by:

"Marvin Pankaskie" marvinpankaskie



I currently have a small reverse loop (using an Atlas HO turnout) that I
control with a Digitrax AR1 controller. The controller and track feed wires
(including insulators) are installed exactly like the Digitrax instructions
and the loop does not contain any other track feed wires from my track bus.
The loop is about 3' by 4'. I am expanding the loop so that now it occupies
an entire 4' by 8' section (my layout is an L-shaped table made of two 4' by
8' panels). Without adding any additional feeds (besides those to/from the
controller) the loop works fine, but I would like to add another feed(s)
from the track bus. When I add 1 pair of extra feeder wires about 6' from
the turnout either there is a short when I apply power to the track bus or
the loco stalls/shorts when it reaches the turnout. If I disconnect this
extra feeder the loco moves through the turnout as it should with no
problems.

Do I need to extend the 2 wires that go from the controller to the loop
using a Y connector so that the feeds inside the loop all originate from the
controller?

Thank you kindly,

Marvin Pankaskie

Rochester, NY 14450

Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:23 pm (PDT) . Posted by:

"Mark Gurries" gurriesm

> On Sep 23, 2014, at 1:57 PM, 'Marvin Pankaskie' thealchemist@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:
>
> I currently have a small reverse loop (using an Atlas HO turnout) that I control with a Digitrax AR1 controller.

> When I add 1 pair of extra feeder wires about 6 from the turnout either there is a short when I apply power to the track bus or the loco stalls/shorts when it reaches the turnout. If I disconnect this extra feeder the loco moves through the turnout as it should with no problems.

> Do I need to extend the 2 wires that go from the controller to the loop using a Y connector so that the feeds inside the loop all originate from the controller?

Yes. Implement a Y connection for all track feeder that go to the reverse loop track. All reverse loop track wiring must remain inside the reverse track loop 100% under control of the AR1 autoreversing device.

The reverse loop track electrically starts and stop at the insulated rail joiner locations. The Turnout is outside the insulated rail joiners which makes it not electrically part of the reverse loop. If you add feeders that are fed from the turnout to the reverse loop track, you have electrically bypassed (Shorted across) the insulated rail joiners. This prevents the autoreversing device from functioning which in turn allows the short circuit to occur.

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com

Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:42 pm (PDT) . Posted by:

"Vollrath, Don" donevol

In. Nutshell... Yes. The feeder wires for all tracks on the referee section must be connected to the output of the ad unit and nowhere else.

DonV


> On Sep 23, 2014, at 2:02 PM, 'Marvin Pankaskie' thealchemist@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> I currently have a small reverse loop (using an Atlas HO turnout) that I
> control with a Digitrax AR1 controller. The controller and track feed wires
> (including insulators) are installed exactly like the Digitrax instructions
> and the loop does not contain any other track feed wires from my track bus.
> The loop is about 3' by 4'. I am expanding the loop so that now it occupies
> an entire 4' by 8' section (my layout is an L-shaped table made of two 4' by
> 8' panels). Without adding any additional feeds (besides those to/from the
> controller) the loop works fine, but I would like to add another feed(s)
> from the track bus. When I add 1 pair of extra feeder wires about 6' from
> the turnout either there is a short when I apply power to the track bus or
> the loco stalls/shorts when it reaches the turnout. If I disconnect this
> extra feeder the loco moves through the turnout as it should with no
> problems.
>
>
>
> Do I need to extend the 2 wires that go from the controller to the loop
> using a Y connector so that the feeds inside the loop all originate from the
> controller?
>
>
>
> Thank you kindly,
>
> Marvin Pankaskie
>
> Rochester, NY 14450
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: "Marvin Pankaskie" <thealchemist@...>
> ------------------------------------
>
> http://www.WiringForDCC.com
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>

Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:09 pm (PDT) . Posted by:

"Steve Haas" goatfisher

<using a Y connector so that the feeds inside the loop all originate from the
controller?>>

If I understand you correctly, you are making the reversing loop longer in
length by expanding it onto the new section of bench work.

If that is the case, the entire expanded reversing loop needs to be powered
by the reversing unit.

If that is not the case, a track diagram loaded to the files section of this
list would help us to help you.

Best regards,

Steve

Steve Haas
Snoqualmie, WA

Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:14 pm (PDT) . Posted by:

"Vollrath, Don" donevol

Please excuse the poor finger pokin' and auto-correction of the iphone.
You need to isolate all the tracks and turnouts you are adding to the reverse lop from main line rails and wire track feeders from them to be connected to the original A-R section rails or feeders from the A-R unit. Add new rail gaps or insulated joiners as necessary to do that. Be sure to remove any connections of those tracks to mainline power.
DonV

-----Original Message-----
From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 4:41 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Expanding a Reverse Loop

In. Nutshell... Yes. The feeder wires for all tracks on the referee section must be connected to the output of the ad unit and nowhere else.

DonV


> On Sep 23, 2014, at 2:02 PM, 'Marvin Pankaskie' thealchemist@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> I currently have a small reverse loop (using an Atlas HO turnout) that
> I control with a Digitrax AR1 controller. The controller and track
> feed wires (including insulators) are installed exactly like the
> Digitrax instructions and the loop does not contain any other track feed wires from my track bus.
> The loop is about 3' by 4'. I am expanding the loop so that now it
> occupies an entire 4' by 8' section (my layout is an L-shaped table
> made of two 4' by 8' panels). Without adding any additional feeds
> (besides those to/from the
> controller) the loop works fine, but I would like to add another
> feed(s) from the track bus. When I add 1 pair of extra feeder wires
> about 6' from the turnout either there is a short when I apply power
> to the track bus or the loco stalls/shorts when it reaches the
> turnout. If I disconnect this extra feeder the loco moves through the
> turnout as it should with no problems.
>
>
>
> Do I need to extend the 2 wires that go from the controller to the
> loop using a Y connector so that the feeds inside the loop all
> originate from the controller?
>
>
>
> Thank you kindly,
>
> Marvin Pankaskie
>
> Rochester, NY 14450
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: "Marvin Pankaskie" <thealchemist@...>
> ------------------------------------
>
> http://www.WiringForDCC.com
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>

------------------------------------
Posted by: "Vollrath, Don" <DVollrath@...>
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