Date   
Re: Snubbers

mgj21932
 

Jerry,
Of course this group makes things complicated. That’s part of the fun of the hobby. Always another issue/problem to be challenged by. And solve/address. Hence complications. Snubbers seem to fall into the category of a solution to a particular problem (very long power bus runs) that have been seized upon in situations where they aren’t required. Leading to lots of complications as other considerations (e.g., location of block detectors, etc.) must be taken into account.

Sounds like your adherence to KISS has been the right answer. I hope I can achieve running results as successful as those of the Willamette Regional Railroad. I too avoid snubbers as unnecessary for my layout.

Best,
Bill D

On Mar 18, 2020, at 10:15 AM, Jerry Kramer <@JKramer328> wrote:


No one has explained what snubbers are since this thread started.
Looks like I don't need them since my layout runs perfectly without them.
Sounds like people here like to make things complicated.
I run a double level layout with 28" high helix on DCC equipped KATO Unitrack with MRC Advanced Squared2 power. I usually run 3 to 5 engines at a time with no problems.
Jerry Kramer
Willamette Regional Railway

Sent from Xfinity Connect Application


Snubbers

Jerry Kramer
 

No one has explained what snubbers are since this thread started.
Looks like I don't need them since my layout runs perfectly without them.
Sounds like people here like to make things complicated.
I run a double level layout with 28" high helix on DCC equipped KATO Unitrack with MRC Advanced Squared2 power. I usually run 3 to 5 engines at a time with no problems.
Jerry Kramer
Willamette Regional Railway

Sent from Xfinity Connect Application

Re: Double Crossover

Theo van Riet
 

Op 18 mrt. 2020, om 00:20 heeft SLYMERSDADDY via Groups.Io <SLYMERSDADDY=YAHOO.COM@groups.io> het volgende geschreven:


--
Hello everyone a question I have that I know has been answered before I am sure. I am building an n scale double crossover with Peco code 55 turnouts and a Peco crossing. The turnouts are Electrofrogs and have not been modified in any way. Can someone explain to me how and where to install the wiring, and insulators. Do i need to add the wires listed in WirngDCC and cut the frogs? What is the best way to switch the wiring through two tortoise switch machines? Of course, the layout will be using DCC. The track plan is a double oval with a reverse loop installed on the inboard loop. I have seen something called a frog juicer will these be required?

Just looking for some help!!
On the internet are a lot of suggestions on how to wire the prefab crossover of Peco do not know the type number.
It might be a good idea to mimic one of these proposals, it works on my layout. With the addition of one relay….

Theo

Double Crossover

SLYMERSDADDY@...
 


--
Hello everyone a question I have that I know has been answered before I am sure.  I am building an n scale double crossover with Peco code 55 turnouts and a Peco crossing.  The turnouts are Electrofrogs and have not been modified in any way.  Can someone explain to me how and where to install the wiring, and insulators.  Do i need to add the wires listed in WirngDCC and cut the frogs? What is the best way to switch the wiring through two tortoise switch machines?  Of course, the layout will be using DCC.  The track plan is a double oval with a reverse loop installed on the inboard loop.  I have seen something called a frog juicer will these be required?

Just looking for some help!!

Thanks in advance

Ed

Re: Non-terminal snubbers

Carl
 

Hi Gang:

We were having troubles up on Ruth Mountain, stalling and run-a-ways. So reading about Snubbers I decided to try one. Had the Cap and a resistor in stock so I soldered them together. Then with a PVC terminal and some screws the project was done. I ran the track cleaning car back and forth, so it seems to have helped.

Carl.

https://groups.io/g/w4dccqa/photo/243095/0?p=Name,,carl,20,1,0,0

Re: Electrical Code for Train Layouts

Wyndell "Wingnut" Ferguson
 

thanks for the replies!

Wyndell "Wingnut" Ferguson


On Sunday, March 15, 2020, 9:48:00 AM CDT, Jerry Michels <gjmichels53@...> wrote:


We have had no problems doing this. As long as the rules for wiring 120v AC are followed.  We haven't have a need for switches along the extension cord, we have one at the beginning to disable the AC.  Our AC runs (in conduit and boxes) has multiple duplex outlets.  That is the reason for the AC in the first place, to distribute the AC to points on the layout where it is needed.


Jerry Michels

Amarillo Railroad Museum


So what’s everyone’s thoughts on adding a switch in an extension cord and replace end connector with a metal box and 2 duplex outlets?

 

Wyndell

Re: Wiring a Staging Yard with lead shut-offs

 

Thanks Don,
You are right, each rail is about 20 feet long and, yes, "every piece of rail will have a feeder." I like your suggestion of feeding each rail from the panel with a twisted sub-bus, this should help keep inductance down.
That would also make it easy to have a snubber at each terminus.
-Michael

Re: Wiring a Staging Yard with lead shut-offs

wirefordcc
 

Hi Michael,

What you propose sounds reasonable.  You did mention the use of double pole switches.  You only need to cut one lead per staging track.  

You did not mention how long your staging tracks were.  If they are typical of staging tracks, you probably will be okay not to have twisted buses.

You can put in 12 snubbers if you wish.  You can put them between the common and each of the switched leads.

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC

Re: Wiring a Staging Yard with lead shut-offs

Don Vollrath
 

Michael with 12 staging leads each lead is probably longer than 15 feet or so. Your plan for power cut off switches is good. However your wiring plan mirrors that of ‘common rail’. You will still need multiple track feeder connections to both rails on each staging track. May as well provide the 2nd wire as part of a sub-bus for each track after the cut off switch and twist them. And be sure to solder rail joiners except where using isolating gaps.

DonV

Re: Non-terminal snubbers

Daniel Brewer
 

@Allan please use my question if it is good for your column. I’m looking forward to reading it.
Dan
Granger, IN

Wiring a Staging Yard with lead shut-offs

 

Greetings,
I hope this finds you well, enjoying a little extra time to work on model railroading.
I'm getting ready to wire a staging yard which has twelve leads. All of the leads, except the bypass track, will have switches to kill the power to that lead. My plan is to run the positive lead from the booster through a circuit breaker to a buss bar at the  panel for this yard. From the buss bar a lead will go to each one of the eleven double pole-single throw switches. From each switch a track power lead will run the length of the appropriate yard lead, providing power to the track feeders. I will take the negative lead from the booster to run the length of the yard, providing power return from the negative track feeders. Because of the arrangement the track bus will not have the usual three turns per foot.
I have two questions:
  1. Does this sound reasonable?
  2.  Is there a way to put a snubber or snubbers into this scheme?

Thanks for your consideration,
Michael Boyle

Re: Non-terminal snubbers

mgj21932
 

Of course Allan.  
Bill Demarest
Gainesville, Va. 

Neighbor of Marty McGuirk.  😃. Small world.  


On Mar 16, 2020, at 4:12 PM, wirefordcc <bigboy@...> wrote:

Hi Bill,

1.  With wires no longer than about 12 feet, you should be okay without snubbers.
2.  You should be able to twist sub bus wires downstream from the Hex Juicer.  For more "juicy" information on Juicers with block detection, see my block detection webpage.
3.  The reason for not twisting sub buses is for avoiding false occupancy indications if you were using block detectors.

I am now writing for MR.  Can I use your questions?  If so, please send me your city and state.  Thanks!

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC

Re: Non-terminal snubbers

wirefordcc
 

Hi Bill,

1.  With wires no longer than about 12 feet, you should be okay without snubbers.
2.  You should be able to twist sub bus wires downstream from the Hex Juicer.  For more "juicy" information on Juicers with block detection, see my block detection webpage.
3.  The reason for not twisting sub buses is for avoiding false occupancy indications if you were using block detectors.

I am now writing for MR.  Can I use your questions?  If so, please send me your city and state.  Thanks!

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC

Re: Non-terminal snubbers

mgj21932
 

Allen,

Sorry for confusion.  Was using "N/S" simply to indicate the "main" bus running down the middle of the layout parallel to the longest side (acting as a "spine"), and "E/W" to describe power bus "spurs" coming off the spine.  At this point I am not planning on occupancy detectors.   

Actually the 14 AWG main bus will be split at a centrally located Tam Valley Hex Juicer (being used as a AR switch), with the main bus powering the mainline (no AR) and two sub-buses running downstream from the Hex Juicer to provide track power to two AR segments.  TV circuit breaker is located upstream from Hex Juicer close to power supply.  

Outputs from Hex Juicer are short 22 AWG stub wires connected to 14 AWG power sub-buses.  I was planning to twist wires on all the power buses and use 22 AWG for track feeders.  Did not plan on using snubbers (or at this point occupancy detectors).  

With no wires longer than 12 feet or so, I didn't think I needed snubbers.  Is that a valid assumption?  

Plus I planned to twist the sub-bus wires downstream from the Hex Juicer.  Any reason not to do so?

Based on your previous reply, would the reason for not twisting those wires be to make later installation of occupancy detectors easier?

Bill D   

On Monday, March 16, 2020, 02:39:29 PM EDT, wirefordcc <bigboy@...> wrote:

Bill,

I figure you are trying to tell me something by your use of E/W and N/S busses.  I think if sub buses running in the same direction as your main bus, but being attached to one another with the intention of breaking up the main bus into sections to create blocks for block detection or electronic circuit breaker districts.

You don't want to twist your sub buses after block detectors because the twisting could cause false occupation indications.  You don't want to put snubbers after block detectors for the same reason.  Note:  Someone contributed to my website that twisting could come after a block detector if a capacitor is used.  I haven't tried that myself yet to see if it always works or not.  Let me know if you try it and it works for you.

Just in case anyone is wondering about Frog Juicers, don't put them after block detectors, either.  See the section on block detection in my website for more information.  BTW, I like Frog Juicers.  I have many of them.

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/blockdet.htm

FYI to all:  I have moved and am building a new railroad in which I will be installing block detection and at some point, signaling.  I'm going as fast as I can, but I have a long way to go.  Also, with the stock market crashing, I'm not spending money as freely on the railroad as I had been doing before.  Block detection may only be installed on a limited section of the railroad as a test section.

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC

Re: Non-terminal snubbers

wirefordcc
 

Bill,

I figure you are trying to tell me something by your use of E/W and N/S busses.  I think if sub buses running in the same direction as your main bus, but being attached to one another with the intention of breaking up the main bus into sections to create blocks for block detection or electronic circuit breaker districts.

You don't want to twist your sub buses after block detectors because the twisting could cause false occupation indications.  You don't want to put snubbers after block detectors for the same reason.  Note:  Someone contributed to my website that twisting could come after a block detector if a capacitor is used.  I haven't tried that myself yet to see if it always works or not.  Let me know if you try it and it works for you.

Just in case anyone is wondering about Frog Juicers, don't put them after block detectors, either.  See the section on block detection in my website for more information.  BTW, I like Frog Juicers.  I have many of them.

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/blockdet.htm

FYI to all:  I have moved and am building a new railroad in which I will be installing block detection and at some point, signaling.  I'm going as fast as I can, but I have a long way to go.  Also, with the stock market crashing, I'm not spending money as freely on the railroad as I had been doing before.  Block detection may only be installed on a limited section of the railroad as a test section.

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC

Re: Non-terminal snubbers

mgj21932
 

Allen,

Is there a reason for not twisting the sub-bus wires?  

I am planning a similar wiring pattern with a "N/S" main bus (twisted wires) and several "E/W" sub busses off the main bus.  I had planned to twist the sub-bus wires as well (until now).  

Given relatively short length of all buses, I was not planning on any snubbers.  Do you recommend omitting snubbers if all runs are less than 15 feet?

Bill D

On Monday, March 16, 2020, 10:29:14 AM EDT, wirefordcc <bigboy@...> wrote:


Hi Daniel,

You can put a snubber at the end of your undetected track.  You can't put a snubber after a block detector as it will likely give a false occupied signal all the time.

As I build my new railroad, I am planning to run a booster district about 23 feet in each direction from the booster. I will twist these wires and put snubbers at each end.  Along the way, I will have short sub buses that will have block detectors.  These sub buses will not be twisted or have snubbers.

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC

Re: Electrical Code for Train Layouts

PennsyNut
 

The identifying of wires is not all the difficult. You could use pieces of straw. Cut 1" long, slice it and place it over each end of a wire. If you don't think that will "last", put a piece of scotch tape on it. You can get straws at almost every fast food place. Different colors. And if you are there buying something, and grab a few straws and stick them in your pocket, they won't say anything as long as you aren't grabbing a bag full. If a typical Subway straw is 7" long, you get 7 pieces 1" long and you only need two - one at each end of the wire. And you can get straws in different colors or in different sizes. Even stirring sticks have holes through them - but may not be large enough for some wires. This is my frugal way of doing things. And if you are putting these on the ends of the wires, you may not even want to slice them, put them over the wire the same way you put shrink on. The use of shrink wrap is a great way, but does cost. My way is free. LOL Morgan Bilbo, about one year with very basic DCC

Re: Electrical Code for Train Layouts

Jerry Michels
 

Thomas, better words have not been spoken! "Standards seem like a pain, but you are trading short term irritation for long term pain."   At the Museum, we follow this not only for wiring but also for things such as rolling stock, sub-roadbed, track, curve radii, and even mixes for scenery groundcover. For example we always find that the members whose trains are a problem at open houses and such are those who sneak in cars with plastic wheels, low or high couplers, unweighted cars, and locomotives with dirty wheels.  I have actually seen a boxcar with so much crud on the plastic wheels that it was even with the flange!  

Jerry Michels
Amarillo Railroad Museum

Re: Non-terminal snubbers

wirefordcc
 

Hi Daniel,

You can put a snubber at the end of your undetected track.  You can't put a snubber after a block detector as it will likely give a false occupied signal all the time.

As I build my new railroad, I am planning to run a booster district about 23 feet in each direction from the booster. I will twist these wires and put snubbers at each end.  Along the way, I will have short sub buses that will have block detectors.  These sub buses will not be twisted or have snubbers.

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC

Re: Electrical Code for Train Layouts

Richard Sutcliffe
 

One of our local modellers prints the circuit identification on an Avery lable, applies the lable to the end of the wire, then shrinks a piece of clear heat shrink tube over the lable. Can use colour printing for extra identification.

Wish I had thought of this 40 years ago. But my wiring is still working. :>)

On Mar 15, 2020, at 9:43 AM, Carl <carl.blum@...> wrote:

One option that is approved is to mark the ends of a conductor. So if you have only black wire you could use colored shrink wrap to mark the code color.