Date   

Re: Block detection/wheel set resistors

AD
 

You cant send attachments thru the group.io. Have to post it to a files section and send everyone a link to it
Tony


On Sep 17, 2020, at 5:32 PM, Joseph Melhorn <toyman@...> wrote:



My apologies,

Some list members contacted me off-list to say that they could not see the attached drawing. I’ll try again sending it as an attachment

Joe Melhorn

Sahuarita,  AZ   85629

 


Re: Block detection/wheel set resistors

Tim
 

Very good Joe. I used exactly the same method to place resistors on N-scale Intermountain wheels. On wheel sets with plastic axles, such as Microtrains new metal wheels, the conductive paint needs to go all along the axle to the opposite wheel. I'm not sure how well the paint sticks to acetal axles.

Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC


Re: Block detection/wheel set resistors

Joseph Melhorn
 

Welll,
it doesn't appear that I can embed an image or attach a file, so I created a Photo Album called Toyman's Photos and uploaded the drawing. Now its available.
Regards,
Joe Melhorn
Sahuarita, AZ


Re: Block detection/wheel set resistors

Joseph Melhorn
 

Sorry, yes, HO Intermountain 33" or 36" wheelsets.
Joe Melhorn
Sahuarita, AZ


Re: Block detection/wheel set resistors

Joseph Melhorn
 

My apologies,

Some list members contacted me off-list to say that they could not see the attached drawing. I’ll try again sending it as an attachment

Joe Melhorn

Sahuarita,  AZ   85629

 


Re: Block detection/wheel set resistors

AD
 

I assume this is ‘ho’ wheels
Tony


On Sep 16, 2020, at 9:58 PM, Joseph Melhorn <toyman@...> wrote:



I’ve made several thousand “resistor” wheel sets over the years. I only use InterMountain wheelsets, either 33” or 36” and I use a 10K Ohm SMD 0805 (2,0 x 1,2mm or 0.08” x 0.05”) 1/8 Watt resistor. Lombard Hobbies < https://lombardhobby.com/intermountain-ho-40056-36-wheels-bulk-set-of-100/> has the 33’s in bulk (100 pieces) for $68.99. Shop around, YMMV!

1.       Prepare your work area. You’ll need wheelsets, tweezers (Non-magnetic preferred), bottle of gel ACC, 1/8 Watt - 0805 SMD resistors, a bottle of Nickel Print, X-Acto knife, Optivisor and a Multimeter.

2.       Hold the resistor with tweezers, put a dab of gel ACC on the back of the resistor. Now bridge the insulator and make contact with the axle and back of the insulated wheel. Set it aside and repeat the process until you have done all of your wheelsets. Find and purchase a bottle of MG Chemicals Nickel Print (Conductive Paint), P/N: 841AR-15ML. Amazon has it < https://www.amazon.com/MG-Chemicals-Nickel-Print-Conductive/dp/B01M28SRH0/ref=asc_df_B01M28SRH0/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=193126619726&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=16312166441497002228&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1013475&hvtargid=pla-305220165769&psc=1>. In case the Amazon link “breaks”, TinyURL: https://tinyurl.com/yxhvku5y  for $23.97. Check around you may find it cheaper!

3.       Open the bottle of Nickel Print and thoroughly stir it, I can’t emphasize this enough! I use a round toothpick to apply the Nickel Print, you only need a tiny amount. Apply it to the point where the end of the SMD resistor meets the axle and where it meets the back of the wheel. Set the wheelset aside and do the next one. Continue repeating the process until you have completed all of your wheelsets.

4.       If you are only doing a few wheelsets, you might want to wait a bit after step 2 to make sure the ACC has “set” and before applying the Nickel Print.

5.       Once you are through applying the Nickel print, again wait a bit for the conductive paint to dry.

6.       Set your multimeter to Resistance (Make sure you set the range high enough to properly “read” the value. Now probe each wheelset wheel to wheel and you should get a reading around 10K Ohm. If it shows “Short” (Zero or very low), no problem, it just means you “bridged the resistor with the Nickel Print. Simply use the X-Acto knife to pop-off the resistor and scrape away the excess paint and start again at step 2. If the Multimeter shows “Open” it means that you didn’t use enough Nickel Print, or you used too much ACC  and its acting as an insulator. Under magnification (You DO have an Optivisor, right?), check to see if there is excess ACC. If there is, use the X-Acto knife to scrape the ACC away and re-apply the Nickel Print.

7.       Here’s a conceptual drawing of a completed wheelset:

 

The first time I did a box of wheelsets (100 ea.), I only had two that were shorted. It’s a knack that you will learn through trial and error. The good thing is that if you mess some up, do-overs are cheap. Solvent-based acrylic lacquer thinner will wipe away the Nickel Print and can be used to thin down the Nickel Print. After a while the Nickel Print will get very thick. I see that MG also has a water-based version, P/N: 841WB-15ML. I have not tried the water-based version. A 15ML bottle will last a looong time, mine is probably ½  full. I’ve thinned it down many times over the years.

At the club I used to belong to, we put one resistor wheelset on every piece of rolling stock that didn’t have lights or a motor. We ran Dr. Chubb’s C/MRI and used his DCCOD’s for block detection and never had any detection issues.

Joe Melhorn

Sahuarita,  AZ   85629

 


Re: Block detection/wheel set resistors

Don Vollrath
 

I have been using that same process for several years with few failures. Clean the back of the wheel and axle before starting. Easily done for HO. Never tried it for N scale.


DonV


Re: Block detection/wheel set resistors

robert leslie
 

Wow, what a great email, Thank You very much,

Bob Leslie
from sticky florida

On Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 09:58:53 PM EDT, Joseph Melhorn <toyman@...> wrote:


I’ve made several thousand “resistor” wheel sets over the years. I only use InterMountain wheelsets, either 33” or 36” and I use a 10K Ohm SMD 0805 (2,0 x 1,2mm or 0.08” x 0.05”) 1/8 Watt resistor. Lombard Hobbies < https://lombardhobby.com/intermountain-ho-40056-36-wheels-bulk-set-of-100/> has the 33’s in bulk (100 pieces) for $68.99. Shop around, YMMV!

1.       Prepare your work area. You’ll need wheelsets, tweezers (Non-magnetic preferred), bottle of gel ACC, 1/8 Watt - 0805 SMD resistors, a bottle of Nickel Print, X-Acto knife, Optivisor and a Multimeter.

2.       Hold the resistor with tweezers, put a dab of gel ACC on the back of the resistor. Now bridge the insulator and make contact with the axle and back of the insulated wheel. Set it aside and repeat the process until you have done all of your wheelsets. Find and purchase a bottle of MG Chemicals Nickel Print (Conductive Paint), P/N: 841AR-15ML. Amazon has it < https://www.amazon.com/MG-Chemicals-Nickel-Print-Conductive/dp/B01M28SRH0/ref=asc_df_B01M28SRH0/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=193126619726&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=16312166441497002228&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1013475&hvtargid=pla-305220165769&psc=1>. In case the Amazon link “breaks”, TinyURL: https://tinyurl.com/yxhvku5y  for $23.97. Check around you may find it cheaper!

3.       Open the bottle of Nickel Print and thoroughly stir it, I can’t emphasize this enough! I use a round toothpick to apply the Nickel Print, you only need a tiny amount. Apply it to the point where the end of the SMD resistor meets the axle and where it meets the back of the wheel. Set the wheelset aside and do the next one. Continue repeating the process until you have completed all of your wheelsets.

4.       If you are only doing a few wheelsets, you might want to wait a bit after step 2 to make sure the ACC has “set” and before applying the Nickel Print.

5.       Once you are through applying the Nickel print, again wait a bit for the conductive paint to dry.

6.       Set your multimeter to Resistance (Make sure you set the range high enough to properly “read” the value. Now probe each wheelset wheel to wheel and you should get a reading around 10K Ohm. If it shows “Short” (Zero or very low), no problem, it just means you “bridged the resistor with the Nickel Print. Simply use the X-Acto knife to pop-off the resistor and scrape away the excess paint and start again at step 2. If the Multimeter shows “Open” it means that you didn’t use enough Nickel Print, or you used too much ACC  and its acting as an insulator. Under magnification (You DO have an Optivisor, right?), check to see if there is excess ACC. If there is, use the X-Acto knife to scrape the ACC away and re-apply the Nickel Print.

7.       Here’s a conceptual drawing of a completed wheelset:

 

The first time I did a box of wheelsets (100 ea.), I only had two that were shorted. It’s a knack that you will learn through trial and error. The good thing is that if you mess some up, do-overs are cheap. Solvent-based acrylic lacquer thinner will wipe away the Nickel Print and can be used to thin down the Nickel Print. After a while the Nickel Print will get very thick. I see that MG also has a water-based version, P/N: 841WB-15ML. I have not tried the water-based version. A 15ML bottle will last a looong time, mine is probably ½  full. I’ve thinned it down many times over the years.

At the club I used to belong to, we put one resistor wheelset on every piece of rolling stock that didn’t have lights or a motor. We ran Dr. Chubb’s C/MRI and used his DCCOD’s for block detection and never had any detection issues.

Joe Melhorn

Sahuarita,  AZ   85629

 


Re: Block detection/wheel set resistors

Joseph Melhorn
 

I’ve made several thousand “resistor” wheel sets over the years. I only use InterMountain wheelsets, either 33” or 36” and I use a 10K Ohm SMD 0805 (2,0 x 1,2mm or 0.08” x 0.05”) 1/8 Watt resistor. Lombard Hobbies < https://lombardhobby.com/intermountain-ho-40056-36-wheels-bulk-set-of-100/> has the 33’s in bulk (100 pieces) for $68.99. Shop around, YMMV!

1.       Prepare your work area. You’ll need wheelsets, tweezers (Non-magnetic preferred), bottle of gel ACC, 1/8 Watt - 0805 SMD resistors, a bottle of Nickel Print, X-Acto knife, Optivisor and a Multimeter.

2.       Hold the resistor with tweezers, put a dab of gel ACC on the back of the resistor. Now bridge the insulator and make contact with the axle and back of the insulated wheel. Set it aside and repeat the process until you have done all of your wheelsets. Find and purchase a bottle of MG Chemicals Nickel Print (Conductive Paint), P/N: 841AR-15ML. Amazon has it < https://www.amazon.com/MG-Chemicals-Nickel-Print-Conductive/dp/B01M28SRH0/ref=asc_df_B01M28SRH0/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=193126619726&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=16312166441497002228&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1013475&hvtargid=pla-305220165769&psc=1>. In case the Amazon link “breaks”, TinyURL: https://tinyurl.com/yxhvku5y  for $23.97. Check around you may find it cheaper!

3.       Open the bottle of Nickel Print and thoroughly stir it, I can’t emphasize this enough! I use a round toothpick to apply the Nickel Print, you only need a tiny amount. Apply it to the point where the end of the SMD resistor meets the axle and where it meets the back of the wheel. Set the wheelset aside and do the next one. Continue repeating the process until you have completed all of your wheelsets.

4.       If you are only doing a few wheelsets, you might want to wait a bit after step 2 to make sure the ACC has “set” and before applying the Nickel Print.

5.       Once you are through applying the Nickel print, again wait a bit for the conductive paint to dry.

6.       Set your multimeter to Resistance (Make sure you set the range high enough to properly “read” the value. Now probe each wheelset wheel to wheel and you should get a reading around 10K Ohm. If it shows “Short” (Zero or very low), no problem, it just means you “bridged the resistor with the Nickel Print. Simply use the X-Acto knife to pop-off the resistor and scrape away the excess paint and start again at step 2. If the Multimeter shows “Open” it means that you didn’t use enough Nickel Print, or you used too much ACC  and its acting as an insulator. Under magnification (You DO have an Optivisor, right?), check to see if there is excess ACC. If there is, use the X-Acto knife to scrape the ACC away and re-apply the Nickel Print.

7.       Here’s a conceptual drawing of a completed wheelset:

 

The first time I did a box of wheelsets (100 ea.), I only had two that were shorted. It’s a knack that you will learn through trial and error. The good thing is that if you mess some up, do-overs are cheap. Solvent-based acrylic lacquer thinner will wipe away the Nickel Print and can be used to thin down the Nickel Print. After a while the Nickel Print will get very thick. I see that MG also has a water-based version, P/N: 841WB-15ML. I have not tried the water-based version. A 15ML bottle will last a looong time, mine is probably ½  full. I’ve thinned it down many times over the years.

At the club I used to belong to, we put one resistor wheelset on every piece of rolling stock that didn’t have lights or a motor. We ran Dr. Chubb’s C/MRI and used his DCCOD’s for block detection and never had any detection issues.

Joe Melhorn

Sahuarita,  AZ   85629

 


Re: Signal Blocks

pekka_groups
 

Perry,

Look at the last image at:

    http://www.sumidacrossing.org/LayoutControl/DCC/DCCCircuitBreakers/

The green boxes are your old circuit breakers. The blue dots are your new train detectors for signaling.

pekka

[not connected to sumidacrossing.org, just found a convenient image by Googling!]

On 2020-09-14 18:40, Perry A Pollino wrote:
Bill and Allan.
 
Maybe I missed something.  Can I run a separate signal bus that a block detector will see? And not have to cut my power buss.



On Monday, September 14, 2020, 09:47:04 AM CDT, wirefordcc <bigboy@...> wrote:


Thanks Bill,

 

I’ll add this to my list of things I would like to include when I get to writing this up.

 

Allan

 

 

From: w4dccqa@groups.io <w4dccqa@groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Wilken
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 5:09 PM
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] Signal Blocks

 

Alan,

 

Your proposed piece on signal block wiring diagrams would be very helpful.  It's taken me a lot of digging to find documentation of this sort.   Let me suggest that you take particular care when referring to "the bus."  Below, you advise that "when you gap your track for your block, you will need to cut your bus at the same point."  But which bus?  The one for track power?  The signal bus?   While I know which bus you're referring to, the answer may not be obvious to the uninitiated.  

 

In the documentation you propose, it also would be helpful to offer tips on wiring issues that might not come readily to mind to the newcomer, particuarly changes that often must be made in existing layouts wiring, e.g. track power feeds.    Similarly, it would be great if you could add some very practical tips and tricks, e.g. showing how to use the same signal bus for parallel tracks.  And, then, there's the matter of integrating signaling with turnouts or interlockings, something that I'm currently wrestling with.

 

Bill

 

 

 

 

On Sun, 2020-09-13 at 10:53 -0700, wirefordcc wrote:

Hi Perry,

 

Yes, when you gap your track for your block, you will need to cut your bus at that same point. 

 

Let’s say you have two signal blocks that you want to make within a particular power district.  Gap your track and cut your bus at the point where you want to create two signal blocks. 

 

When you do this, you will likely have one section of track still connected to your electronic circuit breaker.  Snake this bus wire through the block detector.  You should now have one detected block.

 

For the section you cut and is now dead, Add some wire to this isolated section of bus and snake it through a block detector and attach the end of the new wire to the output of your electronic circuit breaker.  You should now have two wires attached to the output of your electronic circuit breaker and two detected blocks.

 

I want to write some more on block detection in the future.  I’ll need to create some diagrams, too.  I’ll keep your email around and may be back in touch when I get to doing this.

 

Allan Gartner

Wiring for DCC


Re: Turnout Indicator Diagram

Don Vollrath
 

Gary the resistors prevent a rail to rail short.


DonV


Re: Block detection/wheel set resistors

Al Silverstein
 

Tony,
 
Surface mounted resistors are available from many different sources, i.e. Digikey, Mouser, and any of the other electronic supply companies. You can even purchase them on eBay.
 
The glue that I use is a cheap super glue that I get from Harbor freight.
 
According to the BXP88 manual you should be using a 22K.
 
There is resistance paint so I have been told. I never used that stuff myself.
 
Al
 
 
 

From: AD
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 12:03 PM
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] Block detection/wheel set resistors
 
Dear al
 
Where do i get surface mounted resistor?
What glue?
What size? I Use digitrax bxp88’s for detection.
They are small enough to sit on an “n” scale axil and rotate with the wheel without Interfering with its rotation?
 
I thought the paint itself was the resistance?
 
Tony
 
 

On Sep 15, 2020, at 10:08 AM, Al Silverstein <alsilverstein@...> wrote:


Tony,
 
I have been using Circuit Works CW2000 for many years. It works great but it is not cheap.
 
Choose a surface mounted resistor that conducts only the current necessary to trip your block occupancy detector.
 
I have chosen to install two resistive wheels on each piece of rolling stock, one at each far end.
 
I first glue a surface mount resistor to the insulated wheel so that it touches both the metal axle and the isolated metal wheel. I then put a dab of the CS2000 where the resistor touches the metal axle and a dab on the CS2000 where the resistor touches the isolated metal wheel.
 
Al Silverstein
 


Turnout Indicator Diagram

Gary Yurgil
 

There is a wiring diagram called DCC TURNOUT DIRECTION INDICATOR SIGNALS USING 2-WIRE BI-COLOR LEDS.  I admit not being the sharpest tool in the box, but it looks to me like both phases of the AC come together in a point right before the LED.  Do the diodes prevent any kind on short?  I'm hesitant to try it before plugging the power in.


Re: Block detection/wheel set resistors

AD
 

Dear al

Where do i get surface mounted resistor?
What glue?
What size? I Use digitrax bxp88’s for detection.
They are small enough to sit on an “n” scale axil and rotate with the wheel without Interfering with its rotation?

I thought the paint itself was the resistance?

Tony



On Sep 15, 2020, at 10:08 AM, Al Silverstein <alsilverstein@...> wrote:


Tony,
 
I have been using Circuit Works CW2000 for many years. It works great but it is not cheap.
 
Choose a surface mounted resistor that conducts only the current necessary to trip your block occupancy detector.
 
I have chosen to install two resistive wheels on each piece of rolling stock, one at each far end.
 
I first glue a surface mount resistor to the insulated wheel so that it touches both the metal axle and the isolated metal wheel. I then put a dab of the CS2000 where the resistor touches the metal axle and a dab on the CS2000 where the resistor touches the isolated metal wheel.
 
Al Silverstein
 


Re: Block detection/wheel set resistors

Al Silverstein
 

Circuit Works CW2000 is available several places to include eBay.
 
Al Silverstein
 

From: AD
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 9:37 AM
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] Block detection/wheel set resistors
 
Still trying to find out where i can get resistive paint from and where to exactly place it.
 
Tony
 


Re: Block detection/wheel set resistors

AD
 

Still trying to find out where i can get resistive paint from and where to exactly place it.

Tony 



Ok sounds doable.
I paint the Metal wheel axle to the outer edge of one wheel that is insulated from the axle. Is that correct

Where do buy resistive paint?

Tony


On Sep 10, 2020, at 7:52 PM, john <john.p.dunn@...> wrote:




On Thursday, September 10, 2020, 07:52:00 PM EDT, john <john.p.dunn@...> wrote:


Do you know that you can paint the axle from wheel to wheel with silver or resistance paint. Just paint it on, if too much resistance more paint, if too much scrape some paint.
jd
On Thursday, September 10, 2020, 07:14:14 PM EDT, AD <bklyns_baseball_club@...> wrote:


I just emailed jb.   They do not have resistive wheels for ‘n’ scale

Tony




On Sep 10, 2020, at 5:30 PM, dsabourne via groups.io <dsabourne@...> wrote:

JB seems to be the only online source I can find for ready made resistor wheelsets.  

The adjacent page http://jbwheelsets.com/pointed.html provides the approximate wheel size requirements.

However, alas, all nominal standard sizes are TNA ... "Temporary Not Available". :(

David Bourne
Kitchener Ontario


Re: Block detection/wheel set resistors

Al Silverstein
 

Tony,
 
I have been using Circuit Works CW2000 for many years. It works great but it is not cheap.
 
Choose a surface mounted resistor that conducts only the current necessary to trip your block occupancy detector.
 
I have chosen to install two resistive wheels on each piece of rolling stock, one at each far end.
 
I first glue a surface mount resistor to the insulated wheel so that it touches both the metal axle and the isolated metal wheel. I then put a dab of the CS2000 where the resistor touches the metal axle and a dab on the CS2000 where the resistor touches the isolated metal wheel.
 
Al Silverstein
 


Re: Signal Blocks

thomasmclae
 

Here is an easy way to think about signal blocks with occupancy detectors:

A Block is whatever track is fed through a block detector. (Or photocell or IR detector)
You can have many buses, circuit breakers or wiring districts, but that is irrelevant. What counts is the detectors.

There can be one section of track fed through the occupancy detector, or several track segments. (If multiple, should be contiguous), Both count as ONE signal block.
You count blocks by detectors, not wiring districts.

If you start from scratch with a new layout, this is easy to plan.
Retrofitting to DC layout wired 30 years ago, might require more work.

Thomas
DeSoto, TX


Re: Signal Blocks

Perry A Pollino
 

Allan,
Thanks much. 
Now that I put my eyeballs on a diagram via a YouTube video, it is much clearer to me.
I need to create a test track for myself and I will be good once I wire up my test track and get hands on.
My style of learning as I was told is "Concrete" So I learn best when I see and do, over reading and trying to apply what I read. If that makes any sense. I need pictures. I have always struggled with reading comprehension. Turns out I was a slow reader because my mind had to draw a mental picture of everything I was reading. 
I learned this in my 30's. I took a career course that included a battery of tests. 
I have not been tested for Dyslexia. Too old to care about it now but back then they suggested I get tested. 
Now if I  had known this in high school, I would probably be in a different place today. I choose school of hard knock over college or trade school because of my struggles in high school.
I work for a school now as a facilities manager, I see how schools now make "accommodations" in my day you were branded and hung out to dry. 
OK getting off my Soap Box.
So I have found your site very useful over the years. 
Thanks much for what you do.
Perry


On Monday, September 14, 2020, 11:27:30 AM CDT, wirefordcc <bigboy@...> wrote:


Hi Perry,

You can tap off your power bus and run the tapped wire through your block detector.  After coming out of your block detector you would create your signal bus.

Allan


Re: Signal Blocks

Perry A Pollino
 

Link Sent


On Monday, September 14, 2020, 11:28:43 AM CDT, Paul R Greenwald <pennsyrrfan4905@...> wrote:


Perry-

A link to that you tube video?

Thank you,

Paul R Greenwald 
PRRT&HS 1802
NMRA 129229