|
Re: Solid vs Strand Wire for Feeders and Main Bus ??
Alexander Wood
It's likely an older layout that was started before the modern heavier gauge standards came to be to support DCC, and hasn't been upgraded. Most have moved to 12-14 gauge with better connectors. Alex On Fri, Sep 23, 2022 at 1:04 PM PennsyNut <fan4pennsy@...> wrote: Oh my gosh! Y'all built a layout with only 18 AWG for the bus? --
Alexander Wood Hartford-New Haven, CT Modeling the modern era freelanced G&W Connecticut Northern in HO Digikeijs DR5000 - JMRI - ProtoThrottle - TCS UWT-100 - TCS UWT-50p - Digitrax Simplex |
|
|
|
Re: How to Connect Feeders to Main Bus ??
I have used terminal blocks wherever possible. They make it easy to connect (no soldering) and easy to trace issues if they arise. I use 14G stranded for my bus and 22G solid for my feeders. I also use this approach for my DC accessory bus with 16G or 18G feeding accessories. Have fun. Gene J |
|
|
|
Re: Solid vs Strand Wire for Feeders and Main Bus ??
Don Weigt
Yes, 18 gauge bus wiring is light for such a large layout. But, the size isn't as important as the number of locos running at any one time, and their current draw. Modern engines use less power than older ones, because their motors are much more efficient. Thomas didn't say how the layout is configured. If it's a loop, as most modular layouts are that I've seen, then are they connected together on the side opposite the boosters, where the tracks meet? That's usually said not to be done. But, if it is done, it means everything is double fed, through the two halves of the bus in parallel electrically, though not physically. Even if not wired that way, there will be brief periods when they are connected end to end as locos cross those boundaries. Also, if each of the four main lines has its own bus, as I believe most modular layouts are wired, then the currents are much less than if all of them were connected to a single bus. 18 gauge isn't going to fail, start fires, or burn out at typical booster current ratings. Wire has at least two current ratings: one is at which it fails like a fuse, and that's very high. The usual current ratings are based on the allowable voltage drop on a given run length. That's where the heavy bus wire recommendations come from. With our low track voltages, a small voltage drop is a large percentage decrease. High performance electric powered model airplanes use surprisingly small wires for their 50 amp and higher motor currents. They don't fuse, they don't get hot. There is some voltage loss, but not much in their typical short wire lengths. Also, if Thomas' club is running mostly decoders with back EMF sensing to regulate train speed, they ignore the available track voltage except when the raw voltage is less than the loco needs to run at the set speed. At any lower speed, the decoder compensates for higher or lower track voltage. Don Weigt Connecticut -- Don Weigt Connecticut |
|
|
|
Re: How to Connect Feeders to Main Bus ??
Jennifer Lobo
My two penneth. Use really large gauge stranded wire for the main bus. Remove the insulation where the droppers are to go. Use smaller gauge stranded wire for the feeders and solder to the main bus and the rails Cheers Geoff Clarke Canada |
|
|
|
Re: How to Connect Feeders to Main Bus ??
Hi Bernard, - adding my 2-cents worth. I started out using suitcase connectors and I'm slowly replacing all of them with soldered connections. I attribute some of the problem to not using good-quality copper wire but I can't confirm this. I had previously used rolls of wire either from Amazon or local discount electronics suppliers and they don't connect well nor do they solder wire. Hence the slow conversion as I change out the wire feeders as well as the connection
|
|
|
|
Re: How to Connect Feeders to Main Bus ??
Don Russell
I have used suitcase connectors for 20 years have not had an issue.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Don Russell On Sep 24, 2022, at 9:04 AM, Martin Piech <mppiech@...> wrote:
|
|
|
|
Re: How to Connect Feeders to Main Bus ??
Martin Piech
Bernard, I’m seeing positive feedback on social media about using WAGO lever connectors as an alternative to suitcase connectors.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Sep 24, 2022, at 7:17 AM, bernard steinbacher via groups.io <b55go@...> wrote:
|
|
|
|
How to Connect Feeders to Main Bus ??
bernard steinbacher <b55go@...>
I have read that suitcase connectors don't always make good contact to the wire, thereby causing a power drop ?
If I don't want to solder each feeder to the main supply then What Connector works best ? I am using 18 gauge solid wire Feeders But have not decided on Stranded or Solid for Main Bus 14 Gauge Thanks for all your replies Bernard |
|
|
|
Re: Choosing a DCC Starter System ?
Reefman2@verizon.net
Hi John,
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Sounds like a great option. As a rank newbie at DCC, how does one accomplish this, is there instructions posted anywhere? Best regards, Doug
|
|
|
|
Re: Choosing a DCC Starter System ?
John Bishop
Or run trains and throw switches with your phone, using WiThrottle (on IPhone) or its Android equivalent. Needs an NCE interface and a Raspberry Pi. Easier to use than a Procab, automatically wireless, and no need to buy multiple cabs for additional operators because every phone is a throttle. John Bishop
On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 12:55:46 PM PDT, JoAnn Donaldson via groups.io <joannplano2005@...> wrote:
I am a old DIGITrax user. My whole layout runs on a DCS100 Base Unit. As for a starter system the Digitrax Zephyr DCS52 is perfect. You can run trains on it and with DigiTrax Throttles you can run wireless. I have two wireless throttles and an wired Throttle. IMHO the Digitrax Zephyr DCS52 is the way to go starting out with DCC. JoAnn Donaldson
On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 01:52:18 PM CDT, Alexander Wood <newyorknewhavenandhartford@...> wrote:
Bernard, The majority of layouts in North America are running either Digitrax or NCE so you'll find plenty of opinions out there. Looks like you've looked into the Digikeijs DR5000, once you've read up on what DCC is and how it works, I'd definitely look at some other systems as well to compare. There are at least a dozen available in the US, Digitrax and NCE only being two of them. TCS, ESU, Digikeijs, and Roco have really compelling modern systems, and for many people the Digitrax DCS52 Zephyr is enough, and is a great value. My top five starter systems would be: 1. TCS CS-105 2. Digikeijs DR5000 3. ESU Cab Control 4. Roco Z21 5. Digitrax DCS52 The SPROG 3, WiFiTrax WFD-27 and DCC++EX are alternatives that might appeal to some people. If you don't mind encoder-based controls, the EVOXD isn't bad, they've improved the Duplex performance a lot over the older systems, and redesigned the throttle with an easily approachable color screen. It's not a great value, but is relatively a lot less than NCE, at $500 for the EVOXD vs. about $720 for the NCE system once you factor in the power supply and USB to serial cable. The EVOXD will also give you a good programming track, whereas the Power Pro has an older design programming track, so most people use a PowerCab for their programming on NCE. With Digitrax's LocoNet you can start with one throttle and add just about as many additional accessories, boosters, and throttles as you want. When it finally ships, TCS's CS-105 will be the system to beat in the US market, it is about the same price as NCE but with 25 year newer technology, native Wi-Fi LCC throttles, and a ton of additional functionality. It's still in the early adopter phase though, and will be for a while longer. Alex On Thu, Sep 22, 2022 at 12:34 PM bernard steinbacher via groups.io <b55go=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote: Has any one used this system ? and what is your opinion of it ? --
Alexander Wood Hartford-New Haven, CT Modeling the modern era freelanced G&W Connecticut Northern in HO Digikeijs DR5000 - JMRI - ProtoThrottle - TCS UWT-100 - TCS UWT-50p - Digitrax Simplex |
|
|
|
Re: Solid vs Strand Wire for Feeders and Main Bus ??
Don Russell
Agreed but if it works ok but I wouldn’t use 18g I use 12 g. Would be afraid of 18g on my layout.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Don Russell On Sep 23, 2022, at 1:04 PM, PennsyNut <fan4pennsy@...> wrote:
|
|
|
|
Re: Solid vs Strand Wire for Feeders and Main Bus ??
PennsyNut
Oh my gosh! Y'all built a layout with only 18 AWG for the bus?
From what I hear, that's a major no no. You should have had 14 AWG at the minimum or rather 12 AWG. So, since I'm the frugal one and a total contrarian. What do all the gurus and geniuses have to say about that? In theory, that layout is just an accident waiting to happen. A burn out at the least. ???? Phooey! Morgan Bilbo, DCC since 8/18. Model PRR 1952. |
|
|
|
Re: Solid vs Strand Wire for Feeders and Main Bus ??
thomasmclae
Our club layout started in the 1980's.
No suitcase connectors at all. We started as modular, And that saved us when we moved twice in the last 5 years! Connections between tables are either Molex multipin connectors, or spade lugs crimped on the mainline buses with terminal strips. 22 gauge solid wires soldered to tracks, 6-8 inches under the layout to terminal strips. 18 gauge mainline bus. (4 mainlines) Solder is often over-rated and suitcase connectors are not reliable. And our layout has 44 sections (Module/tables) and 1900 square feet. No issues with power drop from one end to the other, even if shortest path has 10-15 sections to far end. -- --- Thomas DeSoto, TX |
|
|
|
Re: Solid vs Strand Wire for Feeders and Main Bus ??
Nick Ostrosky
My two cents as someone that returned to the hobby five years ago and am in the midst of re-building my first layout. First attempt I used solid 14 AWG bus with 3M IDCs (suitcase connectors), with stranded feeders (20 AWG, I think). PIA to
pull solid bus wire through multiple 90° turns, and the IDCs constantly sprung open even after I purchased the proper tool to close them. Layout attempt #2 I'm using 14 AWG stranded zip wire (essentially a two-conductor wire like speaker wire) colored red/black
so I can keep left/right rail consistent. I'm using WAGO connectors on the bus and sub-buses where I cross dominoes for portability. Feeders are 22 AWG stranded tinned copper, connected via T-Taps, of which some brands are better (easier?) than others IMHO.
I tin my feeders where they are soldered underneath the rail and have never had an issue with them holding L-shape while soldering in place. The T-Taps are performing as expected with no failures to date.
I'm using an NCE Powercab/TVD 5 amp booster combo, so not super-high amperage. Longest sub-bus is about 16 ft.
Nick
|
|
|
|
Re: Solid vs Strand Wire for Feeders and Main Bus ??
I used a lot of insulation displacement connectors in low amperage circuits with stranded wire and no problems.
I do have a section where I used suitcase type connectors but I am in N and so never draw more than half an ampere of current. My personal preference is for solder and Wago type splices. The main advantage of Wago type splices is that then can be disconnected for troubleshooting purposes. The other advantage is a very wide range of AWG wire. You must us the recommended gauge when using IDC. 3M makes a suitcase connector that is ideal for our purposes in that the main wire is something like 14 AWG and small wire connection is something like 24 AWG (each with a narrow range above and below that AWG). Best, Ken Harstine |
|
|
|
Re: Solid vs Strand Wire for Feeders and Main Bus ??
Jerry Michels
Ddan, I agree, go with what works. We have both terminal blocks for feeders and feeders soldered directly to the buss. The soldering was done years ago when our collective backs were better! Both terminal blocks and soldered feeders work very well. If we were to do it all over again, I would push very hard for terminal blocks. They make troubleshooting much easier. BTW, we use stranded wire everywhere. We use, seemingly unconventional, colored extension cords for busses (again easy troubleshooting, also low cost, and many colors available). The first item of business is to cut off the male and female plugs from the extension cords. The busses are 12 or 14 gauge wire and the feeders are 22 gauge.
Jerry Michels Amarillo Railroad Musuem |
|
|
|
Re: Choosing a DCC Starter System ?
JoAnn Donaldson
I am a old DIGITrax user. My whole layout runs on a DCS100 Base Unit. As for a starter system the Digitrax Zephyr DCS52 is perfect. You can run trains on it and with DigiTrax Throttles you can run wireless. I have two wireless throttles and an wired Throttle. IMHO the Digitrax Zephyr DCS52 is the way to go starting out with DCC. JoAnn Donaldson
On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 01:52:18 PM CDT, Alexander Wood <newyorknewhavenandhartford@...> wrote:
Bernard, The majority of layouts in North America are running either Digitrax or NCE so you'll find plenty of opinions out there. Looks like you've looked into the Digikeijs DR5000, once you've read up on what DCC is and how it works, I'd definitely look at some other systems as well to compare. There are at least a dozen available in the US, Digitrax and NCE only being two of them. TCS, ESU, Digikeijs, and Roco have really compelling modern systems, and for many people the Digitrax DCS52 Zephyr is enough, and is a great value. My top five starter systems would be: 1. TCS CS-105 2. Digikeijs DR5000 3. ESU Cab Control 4. Roco Z21 5. Digitrax DCS52 The SPROG 3, WiFiTrax WFD-27 and DCC++EX are alternatives that might appeal to some people. If you don't mind encoder-based controls, the EVOXD isn't bad, they've improved the Duplex performance a lot over the older systems, and redesigned the throttle with an easily approachable color screen. It's not a great value, but is relatively a lot less than NCE, at $500 for the EVOXD vs. about $720 for the NCE system once you factor in the power supply and USB to serial cable. The EVOXD will also give you a good programming track, whereas the Power Pro has an older design programming track, so most people use a PowerCab for their programming on NCE. With Digitrax's LocoNet you can start with one throttle and add just about as many additional accessories, boosters, and throttles as you want. When it finally ships, TCS's CS-105 will be the system to beat in the US market, it is about the same price as NCE but with 25 year newer technology, native Wi-Fi LCC throttles, and a ton of additional functionality. It's still in the early adopter phase though, and will be for a while longer. Alex On Thu, Sep 22, 2022 at 12:34 PM bernard steinbacher via groups.io <b55go=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote: Has any one used this system ? and what is your opinion of it ? --
Alexander Wood Hartford-New Haven, CT Modeling the modern era freelanced G&W Connecticut Northern in HO Digikeijs DR5000 - JMRI - ProtoThrottle - TCS UWT-100 - TCS UWT-50p - Digitrax Simplex |
|
|
|
Re: Solid vs Strand Wire for Feeders and Main Bus ??
Jim Zarnick
FWIW, I use solid wire only for feeders (very short, typically 2-3”) and stranded wire for everything else. 100% IDCs, no issues.
From: w4dccqa@groups.io [mailto:w4dccqa@groups.io] On Behalf Of bernard steinbacher via groups.io
Thanks for your reply, so do you use insulation displacement connectors or do you solder your solid wire feeder to your solid wire Main Bus ?? |
|
|
|
Re: Choosing a DCC Starter System ?
Alexander Wood
Bernard, The majority of layouts in North America are running either Digitrax or NCE so you'll find plenty of opinions out there. Looks like you've looked into the Digikeijs DR5000, once you've read up on what DCC is and how it works, I'd definitely look at some other systems as well to compare. There are at least a dozen available in the US, Digitrax and NCE only being two of them. TCS, ESU, Digikeijs, and Roco have really compelling modern systems, and for many people the Digitrax DCS52 Zephyr is enough, and is a great value. My top five starter systems would be: 1. TCS CS-105 2. Digikeijs DR5000 3. ESU Cab Control 4. Roco Z21 5. Digitrax DCS52 The SPROG 3, WiFiTrax WFD-27 and DCC++EX are alternatives that might appeal to some people. If you don't mind encoder-based controls, the EVOXD isn't bad, they've improved the Duplex performance a lot over the older systems, and redesigned the throttle with an easily approachable color screen. It's not a great value, but is relatively a lot less than NCE, at $500 for the EVOXD vs. about $720 for the NCE system once you factor in the power supply and USB to serial cable. The EVOXD will also give you a good programming track, whereas the Power Pro has an older design programming track, so most people use a PowerCab for their programming on NCE. With Digitrax's LocoNet you can start with one throttle and add just about as many additional accessories, boosters, and throttles as you want. When it finally ships, TCS's CS-105 will be the system to beat in the US market, it is about the same price as NCE but with 25 year newer technology, native Wi-Fi LCC throttles, and a ton of additional functionality. It's still in the early adopter phase though, and will be for a while longer. Alex On Thu, Sep 22, 2022 at 12:34 PM bernard steinbacher via groups.io <b55go=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote: Has any one used this system ? and what is your opinion of it ? --
Alexander Wood Hartford-New Haven, CT Modeling the modern era freelanced G&W Connecticut Northern in HO Digikeijs DR5000 - JMRI - ProtoThrottle - TCS UWT-100 - TCS UWT-50p - Digitrax Simplex |
|
|
|
Re: Choosing a DCC Starter System ?
Alexander Wood
Bernard, If you're just running one or two trains, the Digitrax Zephyr DCS52 would probably work just fine, and you can add Wi-Fi throttles through JMRI, with WiThrottle/Engine Driver apps, or the TCS UWTs. You can also add Digitrax LocoNet throttles, although to add a UT6D and UR93 you're only saving about $50-$60 over the full EVOXD system. Alex On Thu, Sep 22, 2022 at 12:34 PM bernard steinbacher via groups.io <b55go=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote: Has any one used this system ? and what is your opinion of it ? --
Alexander Wood Hartford-New Haven, CT Modeling the modern era freelanced G&W Connecticut Northern in HO Digikeijs DR5000 - JMRI - ProtoThrottle - TCS UWT-100 - TCS UWT-50p - Digitrax Simplex |
|
|