Date   
Re: Older Shinohara Turnouts

Brad Ketchen <bketchen@...>
 

I am currently using two of my old Shinohara turnouts (code 100 unfortuantely) temporarily until I can afford to buy new ones...and I need about 5 now at about $30 ea... but Shinohara's are used on two of my 'end of steel' spurs. If the engine has only one car to deliver, then I use a cut of cars in front of the car for delivery to reach in so that the engine does not have to cross over the frog. And more switching to do so..all the better. 

and...2 of the spurs are for a cement factory. I could always isolate the two tracks via plastic joiners and run a GE 44 tonner to switch the cars inside the plant. So I can benefit operationally from these old turnouts.

A little more interesting than all this Frog juicer/polarity tech talk. ;)

Brad

On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 11:08 PM, Dante Fuligni dfuligni2144@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:
 

I understand the use of the Frog Juicers for powered frogs as you folks describe it, but I don’t philosophically believe in that “belt and suspenders” approach to wiring unless it develops that the turnout really requires it. I have both the W/S DCC-friendly and the old-style powered frog units. I also have Frog Juicers to power several of the DCC-friendly frogs (but not all). The layout has run for several years without the contact problems you describe. If and when such problems develop, I can easily add the Frog Juicer(s). In the meantime, I save time, money and effort by not juicing every frog.

Dante


Re: Older Shinohara Turnouts

Mark Cartwright
 

Just a note on Shinohara....
I struggled with Shinohara from around 1976 to 1982 in N Scale.....And then nearly gave up the hobby all together. It wasn't even in Gauge...I had to go over near every mm of my small layout, with an NMRA Thingy in my hand.....
I put it all aside for the next 30 years, till I owned a paid off basement with a house on top. 
And though I still have a bunch of it in a Time Capsule Drawer.....> It stays in there.
Here's the thing...
If you have to struggle too much = You are doing it wrong or perhaps should not have started in the first place....Like an Ex-Girl-friend who has been married 7 time; since I last lived with her. Wonderful Woman...However.....I predicted that, for I didn't marry her. (I used to call her Scarlett for a Reason.)
but I digress...
===
I started out with an N Scale Layout in 1969, in Atlas track of the day and then went to Shinohara around 1975. As a University Student on a serious budget, I remember walking home and eating lunch/dinner in my apartment for nearly a month ! To save just $25 for a Shinohara Double Crossover for my Coffee Table Layout. 
>>>> Even the plan from a book in 1971, I would not approve as an operational plan....Too many damn switches on too many tight curves....
Today...as an officially old man of 64 years old...
No
Been there done that.
So...
Here's the thing...
I recommend not struggling; that is without at least calming down and re-evaluating your whole situation from time to time.
and if you are considering using Shinohara?
Think again.
:)) Mark

When I was six years old, I was given Korean War Vintage Steel Track on clip on cardboard ties.
Near Terrible thing to do to a poor young model railroader on a bottle budget...But I did get it to work..and it motivated me to ?
Make More Money.

Re: Older Shinohara Turnouts

Brad Ketchen <bketchen@...>
 

I agree about Shinohara turnouts. I had always problems on my DC layout and had to bin half of them...even trying to wire them up. It was nice you could park a locomotive on the track the points weren't directed to... but extremely problematic. My friends with bigger layouts never used them. 

Save up for my new ones.. perhaps work on another area of the layout. Or like i've done for a work around.. i've abandoned a spur until I can afford more turnouts and avoid the headaches/heartaches and overall aggravation. After all the modeling of abandoned spurs is very accurate where I live in and around Toronto and provide a really nice modeling touch.

Other problematic turnouts I have are the Atlas that come in a bit cheaper... however the points are really loose and do not want to use those oversized unprotypical caboose Industries ground throws. People have these picturesque/near accurate layouts and they use those awful ground throws..

Good luck!
Brad

On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 8:30 AM, marcdecapri@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:
 

Just a note on Shinohara....

I struggled with Shinohara from around 1976 to 1982 in N Scale.....And then nearly gave up the hobby all together. It wasn't even in Gauge...I had to go over near every mm of my small layout, with an NMRA Thingy in my hand.....
I put it all aside for the next 30 years, till I owned a paid off basement with a house on top. 
And though I still have a bunch of it in a Time Capsule Drawer.....> It stays in there.
Here's the thing...
If you have to struggle too much = You are doing it wrong or perhaps should not have started in the first place....Like an Ex-Girl-friend who has been married 7 time; since I last lived with her. Wonderful Woman...However.....I predicted that, for I didn't marry her. (I used to call her Scarlett for a Reason.)
but I digress...
===
I started out with an N Scale Layout in 1969, in Atlas track of the day and then went to Shinohara around 1975. As a University Student on a serious budget, I remember walking home and eating lunch/dinner in my apartment for nearly a month ! To save just $25 for a Shinohara Double Crossover for my Coffee Table Layout. 
>>>> Even the plan from a book in 1971, I would not approve as an operational plan....Too many damn switches on too many tight curves....
Today...as an officially old man of 64 years old...
No
Been there done that.
So...
Here's the thing...
I recommend not struggling; that is without at least calming down and re-evaluating your whole situation from time to time.
and if you are considering using Shinohara?
Think again.
:)) Mark

When I was six years old, I was given Korean War Vintage Steel Track on clip on cardboard ties.
Near Terrible thing to do to a poor young model railroader on a bottle budget...But I did get it to work..and it motivated me to ?
Make More Money.


Re: Older Shinohara Turnouts

Craig Zeni
 

One of the issues I always had with the Shinohara turnouts was that they didn't meet the NMRA gauge...the gap between the curved stock rail and the open point was almost always tight...the backside of a wheel that wasn't perfectly in gauge would hit that point rail - instant short.

If the point rail gets adjusted etc to make it meet the NMRA gauge, and the wheels are in gauge, they're decent turnouts...the old ones will work fine with DCC and powered frogs.

Craig Zeni
Cary NC

On Aug 29, 2017, at 9:45 AM, Brad Ketchen @bketchen [WiringForDCC] wrote:



I agree about Shinohara turnouts. I had always problems on my DC layout and had to bin half of them...even trying to wire them up. It was nice you could park a locomotive on the track the points weren't directed to... but extremely problematic. My friends with bigger layouts never used them.

Save up for my new ones.. perhaps work on another area of the layout. Or like i've done for a work around.. i've abandoned a spur until I can afford more turnouts and avoid the headaches/heartaches and overall aggravation. After all the modeling of abandoned spurs is very accurate where I live in and around Toronto and provide a really nice modeling touch.

Other problematic turnouts I have are the Atlas that come in a bit cheaper... however the points are really loose and do not want to use those oversized unprotypical caboose Industries ground throws. People have these picturesque/near accurate layouts and they use those awful ground throws..

Good luck!
Brad

On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 8:30 AM, marcdecapri@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:
Just a note on Shinohara....

I struggled with Shinohara from around 1976 to 1982 in N Scale.....And then nearly gave up the hobby all together. It wasn't even in Gauge...I had to go over near every mm of my small layout, with an NMRA Thingy in my hand.....
I put it all aside for the next 30 years, till I owned a paid off basement with a house on top.
And though I still have a bunch of it in a Time Capsule Drawer.....> It stays in there.
Here's the thing...
If you have to struggle too much = You are doing it wrong or perhaps should not have started in the first place....Like an Ex-Girl-friend who has been married 7 time; since I last lived with her. Wonderful Woman...However.....I predicted that, for I didn't marry her. (I used to call her Scarlett for a Reason.)
but I digress...
===
I started out with an N Scale Layout in 1969, in Atlas track of the day and then went to Shinohara around 1975. As a University Student on a serious budget, I remember walking home and eating lunch/dinner in my apartment for nearly a month ! To save just $25 for a Shinohara Double Crossover for my Coffee Table Layout.
Even the plan from a book in 1971, I would not approve as an operational plan....Too many damn switches on too many tight curves....
Today...as an officially old man of 64 years old...
No
Been there done that.
So...
Here's the thing...
I recommend not struggling; that is without at least calming down and re-evaluating your whole situation from time to time.
and if you are considering using Shinohara?
Think again.
:)) Mark

When I was six years old, I was given Korean War Vintage Steel Track on clip on cardboard ties.
Near Terrible thing to do to a poor young model railroader on a bottle budget...But I did get it to work..and it motivated me to ?
Make More Money.




Re: Older Shinohara Turnouts

Thomas Murray
 

Thanks all for your inputs as they were all valid. In the past I've purchased (8) DCC Walthers Shino's as replacements because I like the appearance of these over others. I even added a tiny music wire spring to all turnouts that's hardly noticeable when painted. The dead frogs of the "new" cause no problems for my locos. The "olds" will stay until I start running DCC and if problems arise I'll probably replace them with "bonded" DCC Shino's. The "juicers" can always be traded or sold if not needed. Thanks!!



tmurray

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Audible Alarm for shorts

Edward Sargent
 

Our club is using NCE CP6 for circuit protection (tail light bulbs), because of the large number of visitors (we are in a popular restaurant)  and the fact that half the layout is in a separate room we would like to add a buzzer system to alert us when there is a short. Because of the crowds and a lift up bridge it takes a while to reach the command station. We are installing emergency shut offs so the power can be cut quickly but if we don't know there is a short it maybe too late. We did have an incident where the light was on long enough that the smell of smoke was our first clue  (the CP6 was not in your line of sight).

Re: Audible Alarm for shorts

john
 

   Here is another option for shutting down. Wire your track through a Digitrax PM42 or a similar device. You would be able to wire up to 4 tracks or 4 blocks with it. If you still want a buzzer, wire a low voltage, low wattage relay across the rails and use it's NC contacts to switch on a buzzer when the track power is opened by the auto auto-circuit breaker. 
   There are a number of auto circuit breakers available that may better fit your needs. 
   The brake light bulbs are very useful if they are visible. They even encourage a crescendo of Short, SHORT, short, from the viewers but they are ineffective if they are hidden.
   Where is this popular restaurant. Just for the trains mind you, just the trains.
john


On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 2:54 PM, "ed_sargent@... [WiringForDCC]" wrote:




Our club is using NCE CP6 for circuit protection (tail light bulbs), because of the large number of visitors (we are in a popular restaurant)  and the fact that half the layout is in a separate room we would like to add a buzzer system to alert us when there is a short. Because of the crowds and a lift up bridge it takes a while to reach the command station. We are installing emergency shut offs so the power can be cut quickly but if we don't know there is a short it maybe too late. We did have an incident where the light was on long enough that the smell of smoke was our first clue  (the CP6 was not in your line of sight).




Re: Audible Alarm for shorts

Edward Sargent
 

Actually the bulbs are visible, unless the operator is in the other room or has his/her back to the CP6 and gabbing with a visitor. Not all visitors have a clue the light means short, a lot thing the trains run on batteries. We have 4 power districts so the CP6 was far cheaper than 4 circuit breakers, I also work at a museum where there are 42 breakers (I think) and one buzzer. It is a real problem figuring out where the short is, with the CP6 we have an immediate indication. I'm thinking maybe a sensor that goes off because it detects light. 

The restaurant is the White Fence Farm in Lakewood Colorado, we get 200-400 visitors from the restaurant when the layout is running.


From: "john dunn john.p.dunn@... [WiringForDCC]"
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2017 2:36:25 PM
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Audible Alarm for shorts

 


   Here is another option for shutting down. Wire your track through a Digitrax PM42 or a similar device. You would be able to wire up to 4 tracks or 4 blocks with it. If you still want a buzzer, wire a low voltage, low wattage relay across the rails and use it's NC contacts to switch on a buzzer when the track power is opened by the auto auto-circuit breaker. 
   There are a number of auto circuit breakers available that may better fit your needs. 
   The brake light bulbs are very useful if they are visible. They even encourage a crescendo of Short, SHORT, short, from the viewers but they are ineffective if they are hidden.
   Where is this popular restaurant. Just for the trains mind you, just the trains.
john


On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 2:54 PM, "ed_sargent@... [WiringForDCC]" wrote:




Our club is using NCE CP6 for circuit protection (tail light bulbs), because of the large number of visitors (we are in a popular restaurant)  and the fact that half the layout is in a separate room we would like to add a buzzer system to alert us when there is a short. Because of the crowds and a lift up bridge it takes a while to reach the command station. We are installing emergency shut offs so the power can be cut quickly but if we don't know there is a short it maybe too late. We did have an incident where the light was on long enough that the smell of smoke was our first clue  (the CP6 was not in your line of sight).







Re: Audible Alarm for shorts

Thomas
 

I would think you could use photocells to monitor the bulbs.
When  bulb lights it would be easy to have a circuit triggered
by the photocells to sound a buzzer or even disconnect power.
Tom



From: "ed_sargent@... [WiringForDCC]"
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2017 2:54 PM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Audible Alarm for shorts

 
Our club is using NCE CP6 for circuit protection (tail light bulbs), because of the large number of visitors (we are in a popular restaurant)  and the fact that half the layout is in a separate room we would like to add a buzzer system to alert us when there is a short. Because of the crowds and a lift up bridge it takes a while to reach the command station. We are installing emergency shut offs so the power can be cut quickly but if we don't know there is a short it maybe too late. We did have an incident where the light was on long enough that the smell of smoke was our first clue  (the CP6 was not in your line of sight).
__._,_




Re: Audible Alarm for shorts

Kurt Konrath
 

Have you thought of adding something like a Piezo Transducer in the circuit with light bulb.  The make an annoying buzz when powered

Kurt


On Sep 6, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Thomas Stephens deerpen4@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 

I would think you could use photocells to monitor the bulbs.
When  bulb lights it would be easy to have a circuit triggered
by the photocells to sound a buzzer or even disconnect power.
Tom



From: "ed_sargent@... [WiringForDCC]" <WiringForDCC@...>
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2017 2:54 PM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Audible Alarm for shorts

 
Our club is using NCE CP6 for circuit protection (tail light bulbs), because of the large number of visitors (we are in a popular restaurant)  and the fact that half the layout is in a separate room we would like to add a buzzer system to alert us when there is a short. Because of the crowds and a lift up bridge it takes a while to reach the command station. We are installing emergency shut offs so the power can be cut quickly but if we don't know there is a short it maybe too late. We did have an incident where the light was on long enough that the smell of smoke was our first clue  (the CP6 was not in your line of sight).
__._,_




Re: Audible Alarm for shorts

Edward Sargent
 

Are they adjustable, as I understand it there is always current going through the bulb just not enough to light it. When we had the 1amp bulbs they would glow a little with 1 sound loco, with 2 sound locos plus lighted cars the bulbs would consume all the power. Now we have the 1.75amp bulbs and we see no glow. These piezo transducers, if they buzz with little current then would it not be like tinnitus?


From: "Kurt kurt.konrath@... [WiringForDCC]"
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2017 10:19:05 AM
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Audible Alarm for shorts

 

Have you thought of adding something like a Piezo Transducer in the circuit with light bulb.  The make an annoying buzz when powered

Kurt


On Sep 6, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Thomas Stephens deerpen4@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 

I would think you could use photocells to monitor the bulbs.
When  bulb lights it would be easy to have a circuit triggered
by the photocells to sound a buzzer or even disconnect power.
Tom



From: "ed_sargent@... [WiringForDCC]" <WiringForDCC@...>
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2017 2:54 PM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Audible Alarm for shorts

 
Our club is using NCE CP6 for circuit protection (tail light bulbs), because of the large number of visitors (we are in a popular restaurant)  and the fact that half the layout is in a separate room we would like to add a buzzer system to alert us when there is a short. Because of the crowds and a lift up bridge it takes a while to reach the command station. We are installing emergency shut offs so the power can be cut quickly but if we don't know there is a short it maybe too late. We did have an incident where the light was on long enough that the smell of smoke was our first clue  (the CP6 was not in your line of sight).
__._,_





Buss Wiring

gregw66@...
 

I have just strung a 14 gauge DCC buss under the layout. The two wires are separated by about 6 inches at the closest. Do I need to re string the wires with a twist periodically? How close together should the twists be? What if I ran the wires close together, as in zip cord or speaker wire? I've read various things and am a little confused.


GregW66

Re: Buss Wiring

Chris Richter
 

Mark Gurries has a great write-up.  I followed it to the letter and the results were excellent. I have cut & pasted a couple links to have a look at.  Place the end not in your drill in a strong vise - it works very well. I have merged 3 long lines of 12 GA red & black cable this way to twist them and have had no issues in making the "twisted pair" nor when installing (I pried apart the twist with a thin flat headed screwdriver to tap into the main bus to attach the sub bus using 3M Suitcase connectors). So far no problems with connectivity, etc.


Use a variable speed Drill on one end and a vice or a hook in a stud of some exposed wall on the other end.  Go slow, keep the cable stretched tight and over twist by 3x more than you need.  Why?   When you let go, it will unwind about that amount like a coiled spring.

https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/dcc-general-best-practices/wiring-planing/snubbers-rc-filter


Why called an RC filter as opposed to a snubber or terminator.  https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/dcc-general-best-practices/wiring-planing/snubbers-rc-filter/rc-filter-name-why



Re: Buss Wiring

David Klemm
 

Greg,


Whether on my home layout, 12'x24', my club layout of 5000 square feet, or my Free-mo modules which are 2'x5', they all have the wires next to each other being pulled through the same holes.  


You are right, you will get see a lot of opinions from keep them apart, twist them, terminate them to it doesn't matter.   Since it works with all the above situations, not sure it really matters.  Don't waste your time worrying about it.  Wiring is a necessary evil to get to the fun part of driving a train.  No need to over think this piece or other pieces.  


David




From: WiringForDCC@... on behalf of gregw66@... [WiringForDCC]
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 8:16 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Buss Wiring
 
 

I have just strung a 14 gauge DCC buss under the layout. The two wires are separated by about 6 inches at the closest. Do I need to re string the wires with a twist periodically? How close together should the twists be? What if I ran the wires close together, as in zip cord or speaker wire? I've read various things and am a little confused.


GregW66

Re: Buss Wiring

AD
 

The confusion in wiring is not running 2 wires together to power a layout but when you wire 33or 64 wires to power the same layout. One wire to each of 36 blocks and a common or two wires to each block and they go thru two digitrax bdl168 detection devices.  My hope is that the problem of bundling those wires does not exist when i use 4-bxp88’s instead. Does anyone have any problem twisting wires using the new device?

Tony 


On Nov 17, 2017, at 10:39 AM, DAVID KLEMM davidklemm7511@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 

Greg,


Whether on my home layout, 12'x24', my club layout of 5000 square feet, or my Free-mo modules which are 2'x5', they all have the wires next to each other being pulled through the same holes.  


You are right, you will get see a lot of opinions from keep them apart, twist them, terminate them to it doesn't matter.   Since it works with all the above situations, not sure it really matters.  Don't waste your time worrying about it.  Wiring is a necessary evil to get to the fun part of driving a train.  No need to over think this piece or other pieces.  


David




From: WiringForDCC@... <WiringForDCC@...> on behalf of gregw66@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 8:16 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Buss Wiring
 
 

I have just strung a 14 gauge DCC buss under the layout. The two wires are separated by about 6 inches at the closest. Do I need to re string the wires with a twist periodically? How close together should the twists be? What if I ran the wires close together, as in zip cord or speaker wire? I've read various things and am a little confused.


GregW66

Re: Buss Wiring

dvollrath@...
 


The main bus feeder wires for DCC distribution should be run close together rather than two widely separated wires. Many will argue about the size of the wire and/or evidence that it works OK some other way. Best practice:
1. Select a wire size to reduce the overall voltage drop at rated booster current. This usually means 12-14 AWG. Obviously Scale and layout size dependent.   
2. Use twisted pair with 3-4 twists per foot. This reduces the effects of wiring inductance and radiated electrical interference to other circuits. It also requires them to be close together where 16 AWG 'zip cord' or speaker wire automatically does that. Fancy labeled speaker wire might be available in a larger gauge but will cost more that 12 AWG building wire.   
3. Add an R-C snubber/filter at the far end of each bus run away from the booster. 
4. Position the booster near the middle with bus runs out in 2 or more opposite directions rather than at one end. This minimizes the booster to load distance of the wiring.

DonV


---In WiringForDCC@..., <gregw66@...> wrote :

I have just strung a 14 gauge DCC buss under the layout. The two wires are separated by about 6 inches at the closest. Do I need to re string the wires with a twist periodically? How close together should the twists be? What if I ran the wires close together, as in zip cord or speaker wire? I've read various things and am a little confused.


GregW66