Date   

Re: To DCC or not to DCC...that is my question

Nick Ostrosky
 

Thank you for your guidance, especially with regard to blocks, NCE, etc.


Re: To DCC or not to DCC...that is my question

whmvd
 

hi Nick,

What is 'best for your situation' is ultimately only decided by what it is you want to do. Not by a collection of DCC fans. Because if you ask them, they will tell you that DCC is the way to go. Mind you, I agree, but that's why I'm in the group...

To figure out if it's worth the investment, you'd have to offset the added pleasure you'd get from DCC against the added cost. Only you can do that. The relatively low-cost and very reliable way into DCC via NCE PowerCab was already mentioned, and I'd agree wholeheartedly, especially as the upgrade path (should you want more) means that you do not lose out having to buy a lot of new gear instead of what you initially buy; it's in adition to what you initially buy. A good concept, that'll save you money in the long run.

Things to consider:
- headlights that work when standing still
- possibilities for sound
- multi-train operation
- possibility of bringing the computer into it (via JMRI - free - or otherwise)
- very different wiring
- an entirely new learning curve
- considerable expense when adding decoders to existing engines
and much, much more.

Good luck, and whatever you do: enjoy the hobby!
Wouter

On 10 April 2017 at 21:36, dvollrath@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:
 

Hello Nick,

You seem to be making it more complicated than it needs to be. Run, don't walk, to DCC. The advantages of operating with DCC are great. Once you get started with DCC you will never look back. Get yourself an NCE PowerCab and a PSX-AR unit to handle the reversing loop. You can use another PSX-AR or a lower cost relay to switch track polarity at the wye. Don't go overboard on breaking up the layout into all those control blocks with independent circuit breakers. There is no real need to do that unless you plan on having multiple operators. If you have already done so there is no harm in wiring the power leads for those individual track sections to the same DCC distribution bus. If you need assistance to modify existing DC locos to DCC, ask for help at a local club or hobby shop.


DonV



Re: To DCC or not to DCC...that is my question

dvollrath@...
 

Hello Nick,

You seem to be making it more complicated than it needs to be. Run, don't walk, to DCC. The advantages of operating with DCC are great. Once you get started with DCC you will never look back. Get yourself an NCE PowerCab and a PSX-AR unit to handle the reversing loop. You can use another PSX-AR or a lower cost relay to switch track polarity at the wye. Don't go overboard on breaking up the layout into all those control blocks with independent circuit breakers. There is no real need to do that unless you plan on having multiple operators. If you have already done so there is no harm in wiring the power leads for those individual track sections to the same DCC distribution bus. If you need assistance to modify existing DC locos to DCC, ask for help at a local club or hobby shop.


DonV


To DCC or not to DCC...that is my question

Nick Ostrosky
 

Upon re-entering the hobby I had every intention to do DCC, but now I'm not so sure.  I'm building a 15x12 single mainline layout with one reversing loop and one wye (wye not yet built).  I've purchased some DCC and some non-DCC locos - about a 50/50 split.  Since I'll only be running 1-2 trains at a time, at most, is DCC worth the investment?  I've broken the layout into about 10 blocks, so circuit breakers, reversing circuits, power, etc., plus modifying the non-DCC locos, seems a little imposing.   I'd appreciate any insight on how to best analyze what may be best for my situation - or guidance on "hybrid" options, if that's even worthwhile.  Thanks!



Re: NEED HELP

scott toro
 

thank you for the help



On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 9:06 AM, "dvollrath@... [WiringForDCC]" wrote:


 
Scott,
Looking at your layout drawing... you have one continuous loop with only one place where trains could be reversed. Isolate the middle track located at the 'car lot' at both rails at both ends where the tracks join a turnout and use a PSX-AR auto-reverser to power those rails. Good practice says use plenty of rail feeders elsewhere every 6 feet or so along every track. If HO or N scale Set up a single booster near the 'Elk Lodge' and run the twisted pair DCC power bus out in both directions to feed the layout. S or O scale may need larger amps or more boosters. Be sure to provide for powered frogs on your turnouts as you lay track.

If you plan on running with multiple operators - Consider breaking up the layout into several power districts of operation work areas. Isolating mainline tracks, yards, terminals other industrial switching track areas from each other come to mind. Each area would need a circuit breaker (either electronic or 'light bulb' type) to prevent possible interference between operator foul-ups. This would certainly complicate the single DCC distribution bus idea and may add a lot of cost. Locating individual PSX's near where they would be used simplifies DCC bus wiring.

If you plan on ever adding signaling - Break up the mainline run into practical signal blocks by adding isolating gaps. Each block could (later) be occupancy detected using NCE BD20 detectors or equivalent. For starters each block could simply be connected to the DCC supply bus.

If more crossovers are contemplated that form another reversing track, like at the SF yard to the mainline, isolate the return loops at each end and turn them into separate auto-reverse sections with the rest of the layout wired in fixed polarity.

DonV     



Re: NEED HELP

dvollrath@...
 

Scott,

Looking at your layout drawing... you have one continuous loop with only one place where trains could be reversed. Isolate the middle track located at the 'car lot' at both rails at both ends where the tracks join a turnout and use a PSX-AR auto-reverser to power those rails. Good practice says use plenty of rail feeders elsewhere every 6 feet or so along every track. If HO or N scale Set up a single booster near the 'Elk Lodge' and run the twisted pair DCC power bus out in both directions to feed the layout. S or O scale may need larger amps or more boosters. Be sure to provide for powered frogs on your turnouts as you lay track.


If you plan on running with multiple operators - Consider breaking up the layout into several power districts of operation work areas. Isolating mainline tracks, yards, terminals other industrial switching track areas from each other come to mind. Each area would need a circuit breaker (either electronic or 'light bulb' type) to prevent possible interference between operator foul-ups. This would certainly complicate the single DCC distribution bus idea and may add a lot of cost. Locating individual PSX's near where they would be used simplifies DCC bus wiring.


If you plan on ever adding signaling - Break up the mainline run into practical signal blocks by adding isolating gaps. Each block could (later) be occupancy detected using NCE BD20 detectors or equivalent. For starters each block could simply be connected to the DCC supply bus.


If more crossovers are contemplated that form another reversing track, like at the SF yard to the mainline, isolate the return loops at each end and turn them into separate auto-reverse sections with the rest of the layout wired in fixed polarity.


DonV     


Re: NEED HELP

scott toro
 

https://joshuatorozoo.blogspot.com.
here is were post it


On Tuesday, April 4, 2017 12:35 PM, "dvollrath@... [WiringForDCC]" wrote:


 
Sorry. Yahoo strips off drawings and other non-text items from forum messages. Please post your sketch in the files or photos section or add a link to your drawing.
DonV  



Re: NEED HELP

dvollrath@...
 

Sorry. Yahoo strips off drawings and other non-text items from forum messages. Please post your sketch in the files or photos section or add a link to your drawing.

DonV  


NEED HELP

scott toro
 

Here is the lay out i am planing on doing is there anything i should change to mack wiring up DDC better


Fitting pickups, Digitrax DCC transponding, capacitor stay alive and interior lighting and lamps

Digitrax Dad (Lancashire Fusilier)
 

Something a little bit different from wiring DCC control boards this long weekend here in Perth. Recently obtained two of the latest range of Bachmann 4mm scale LMS brake vans in grey with duckets and brown without duckets. Have decided to fit working lamps and interior lights plus transponding decoders from Digitrax that will broadcast the DCC address of the transponding decoder via Loconet.


https://youtu.be/fFv9AGolBb8


The second part of this project focuses more on the electronics and resistors for getting the right light level in the lamps and interior lights plus getting the pick ups installed and electrically connected. In this part I play with a stay alive capacitor by DCC Concepts called a FlickerFree which I will then attach to the output of the Digitrax transponder function only decoder TL1. Once addressed the TL1 function on will turn on the lamps on the van as well as send out transponding signals to RX1 transponder detectors connected to a BDL168 block detector board.


https://youtu.be/uTA70f0_Jkg


Paul Hamilton

Perth, Western Australia 




Re: Wiring for DCC Website Update

Mark Gurries
 

As much as that may be true, there is nothing electrically guaranteeing that is true by design.

I agree it depends on the type of current based detector your using.

One of the actions that can "cover up" or "mask the problem" is the release time delay of the detection circuit.   Detection is lost at the frog but the delay on release bridges the gap of the lost occupany to prevent long enough for the engine to pass through the frog preventing the momentary loss of occupancy from being seen in the signal logic.

The problem with all the different brands of current based detectors on the market, there is no standard on delay being implemented, how long or how well the release circuit will work.

Since there is no standard, the only safe recommendation is to not recommend it.

I agree with Max suggestion that IF you can run the frog wire through the same current detector coil hole, you can address that problem electrically.  The problem is depending on how many turns are needed, there may not be any space left in the hole to add a second wire.  If you have more than one turnout in the same block, it gets even more difficult or more complicated.

On Mar 13, 2017, at 2:09 PM, dale.gloer@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



Mark, just a comment on your number 2 item.

> 2) If they draw their power from a undetected source, they can momentarily provide power to    > the locomotive directly resulting in intermittent loss of occupancy detection as the engine goes > over the frog.

I think it depends on the type of current detector you are using.  My experience with RR CircKits Watchman detectors is that if you feed a block from a sub bus and inadvertently also connect it to the main undetected bus that you will get occupancy detected even when the block is unoccupied. (How do I know this?  I spent quite a few hours finding just this wiring error.)  Therefore the situation you describe will not happen.  Our club has 12 OS sections that are wired just as you describe without any problems.

Dale Gloer



Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com




Re: Wiring for DCC Website Update

Dale Gloer
 

Mark, just a comment on your number 2 item.

> 2) If they draw their power from a undetected source, they can momentarily provide power to    > the locomotive directly resulting in intermittent loss of occupancy detection as the engine goes > over the frog.

I think it depends on the type of current detector you are using.  My experience with RR CircKits Watchman detectors is that if you feed a block from a sub bus and inadvertently also connect it to the main undetected bus that you will get occupancy detected even when the block is unoccupied. (How do I know this?  I spent quite a few hours finding just this wiring error.)  Therefore the situation you describe will not happen.  Our club has 12 OS sections that are wired just as you describe without any problems.

Dale Gloer


Re: Wiring for DCC Website Update

Max Maginness
 

The  frog wire does need to run through the transformer opening in the same “direction” as the lead to the remainder of the block or there will be a potential momentary  cancellation of detection.

 

Max

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2017 7:58 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: RE: [WiringForDCC] Wiring for DCC Website Update

 

 

I put the use of a Frog Juicer with a current transformer block detection in my section on block detection.

 

Allan

 

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2017 1:25 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: RE: [WiringForDCC] Wiring for DCC Website Update

 

 

In case 2 one can loop the lead  from the juicer to the frog through the same detector as used  for the adjacent tracks.   Works for the BD20 type of detector where separate wires can be run through the transformer opening.

 

Max

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2017 2:22 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Wiring for DCC Website Update

 

 

The only comment I would as is any layouts with signaling, Frog Juicers are not compatible with current pass occupancy detection.  They can cause problems in two ways.

 

1) If they draw their power from a detected block, the current they draw to operate do nothing is enough to  trigger occupancy.

 

2) If the draw their power from a undetected source, they can momentarily provide power to the locomotive directly resulting in intermittent loss of occupancy detection as the engine goes over the frog.

 

A frog powered by toggle switch or a turnout motor contracts will not have these problems.

 

These are clearly ONLY important issue for those who’s layout will have some form of track current based occupancy detection.  If your layout will not have current based occupany detection or no occupancy detection of any kind, you an ignore this information.   It just a “gotcha” that people have run into., 

 

 

On Mar 11, 2017, at 8:27 AM, bigboy@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 






I have added a section on considerations on using live or dead frogs at:

 

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/intro2dcc.htm#a43

 

I have added a section on wiring a Tortoise to a frog at:

 

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm#a20

 

Hopefully this will help people who want to use powered frog and see that it is not hard to do and anyone can do it.

 

Allan Gartner

Wiring for DCC

 





 

Best Regards,

 

Mark Gurries

Electrical Engineer

DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com

 

 

 


Re: Wiring for DCC Website Update

Allan AE2V
 

I put the use of a Frog Juicer with a current transformer block detection in my section on block detection.

 

Allan

 

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2017 1:25 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: RE: [WiringForDCC] Wiring for DCC Website Update

 

 

In case 2 one can loop the lead  from the juicer to the frog through the same detector as used  for the adjacent tracks.   Works for the BD20 type of detector where separate wires can be run through the transformer opening.

 

Max

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2017 2:22 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Wiring for DCC Website Update

 

 

The only comment I would as is any layouts with signaling, Frog Juicers are not compatible with current pass occupancy detection.  They can cause problems in two ways.

 

1) If they draw their power from a detected block, the current they draw to operate do nothing is enough to  trigger occupancy.

 

2) If the draw their power from a undetected source, they can momentarily provide power to the locomotive directly resulting in intermittent loss of occupancy detection as the engine goes over the frog.

 

A frog powered by toggle switch or a turnout motor contracts will not have these problems.

 

These are clearly ONLY important issue for those who’s layout will have some form of track current based occupancy detection.  If your layout will not have current based occupany detection or no occupancy detection of any kind, you an ignore this information.   It just a “gotcha” that people have run into., 

 

 

On Mar 11, 2017, at 8:27 AM, bigboy@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 





I have added a section on considerations on using live or dead frogs at:

 

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/intro2dcc.htm#a43

 

I have added a section on wiring a Tortoise to a frog at:

 

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm#a20

 

Hopefully this will help people who want to use powered frog and see that it is not hard to do and anyone can do it.

 

Allan Gartner

Wiring for DCC

 




 

Best Regards,

 

Mark Gurries

Electrical Engineer

DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com

 

 

 


Re: Wiring for DCC Website Update

Max Maginness
 

In case 2 one can loop the lead  from the juicer to the frog through the same detector as used  for the adjacent tracks.   Works for the BD20 type of detector where separate wires can be run through the transformer opening.

 

Max

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2017 2:22 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Wiring for DCC Website Update

 

 

The only comment I would as is any layouts with signaling, Frog Juicers are not compatible with current pass occupancy detection.  They can cause problems in two ways.

 

1) If they draw their power from a detected block, the current they draw to operate do nothing is enough to  trigger occupancy.

 

2) If the draw their power from a undetected source, they can momentarily provide power to the locomotive directly resulting in intermittent loss of occupancy detection as the engine goes over the frog.

 

A frog powered by toggle switch or a turnout motor contracts will not have these problems.

 

These are clearly ONLY important issue for those who’s layout will have some form of track current based occupancy detection.  If your layout will not have current based occupany detection or no occupancy detection of any kind, you an ignore this information.   It just a “gotcha” that people have run into., 

 

 

On Mar 11, 2017, at 8:27 AM, bigboy@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 




I have added a section on considerations on using live or dead frogs at:

 

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/intro2dcc.htm#a43

 

I have added a section on wiring a Tortoise to a frog at:

 

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm#a20

 

Hopefully this will help people who want to use powered frog and see that it is not hard to do and anyone can do it.

 

Allan Gartner

Wiring for DCC

 



 

Best Regards,

 

Mark Gurries

Electrical Engineer

DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com

 

 

 


Re: Wiring for DCC Website Update

Mark Gurries
 

The only comment I would as is any layouts with signaling, Frog Juicers are not compatible with current pass occupancy detection.  They can cause problems in two ways.

1) If they draw their power from a detected block, the current they draw to operate do nothing is enough to  trigger occupancy.

2) If the draw their power from a undetected source, they can momentarily provide power to the locomotive directly resulting in intermittent loss of occupancy detection as the engine goes over the frog.

A frog powered by toggle switch or a turnout motor contracts will not have these problems.

These are clearly ONLY important issue for those who’s layout will have some form of track current based occupancy detection.  If your layout will not have current based occupany detection or no occupancy detection of any kind, you an ignore this information.   It just a “gotcha” that people have run into., 


On Mar 11, 2017, at 8:27 AM, bigboy@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



I have added a section on considerations on using live or dead frogs at:


http://www.wiringfordcc.com/intro2dcc.htm#a43


I have added a section on wiring a Tortoise to a frog at:


http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm#a20


Hopefully this will help people who want to use powered frog and see that it is not hard to do and anyone can do it.


Allan Gartner

Wiring for DCC





Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com




Wiring for DCC Website Update

Allan AE2V
 

I have added a section on considerations on using live or dead frogs at:


http://www.wiringfordcc.com/intro2dcc.htm#a43


I have added a section on wiring a Tortoise to a frog at:


http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm#a20


Hopefully this will help people who want to use powered frog and see that it is not hard to do and anyone can do it.


Allan Gartner

Wiring for DCC



Re: No soldering required for under layout DCC bus wire splices?

Stuart Bouchey <sbouchey@...>
 

Glenn

Re the term "Western Union Splice".

Historically this term has been used about the joint used to connect two line wires together.

A reference is "The Art of Knotting and Splicing" by Cyrus L Day, Third Edition 1970, Naval Institute Press, ISBN 087021 083 1.

Item 187 page 162 illustrates the splice and method of tying.

This link also shows how:

http://makezine.com/2012/02/28/how-to-splice-wire-to-nasa-standards/

Note the comments on soldering.

Other comments.

Re Twisting Screw Eyes.

Modern "hung" ceilings/lighting fixtures require numerous screw eyes for the attachment of support wires. Thus, an on-line search for screw eye driver will give a wide assortment of power screwdriver/impact tools in the $3 to $30 range. I found the inexpensive "Y" type work well.

Re use of flux:

If flux is used be sure to use a noncorrosive type approved for electronic use.

Stuart

 

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2017 11:29
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Re: No soldering required for under layout DCC bus wire splices?

 

 

That is known as a Western Union splice. It was used on telegraph lines so the main wire did not have to be cut thus loosing strength.

One way to open the insulation is to singe it with flame or soldering iron. Remove the burnt insulation and clean the wire with emery paper or fine sand paper. Wrap the joining wire around the buss then coat with flux. The flux helps keep out wetness and oxidation. Solder not required.

Suggestion: Save your fingers from twisting all those screw eyes. Cut several angled grooves in the mounting board and push the wires in. If desired a strip of wood will secure the wires in the grooves.

Glenn

Just twist feeders around bus:

 


Re: No soldering required for under layout DCC bus wire splices?

Puckdropper
 

Glenn,

Am I missing something?  Just stripping the main bus and wrapping the wire around is a poor joint and *will* fail.  Even if you do flux the connections, what's to keep the wire from loosening up over time?

I've fixed several "just wrap the wire around, it'll work" type connections that have failed.  Soldering takes almost no additional time, and guarantees the joint won't fail in my lifetime.  (Connectors and wire nuts, properly installed, are just as good.)

Puckdropper




---In wiringfordcc@..., <ghazel@...> wrote :

That is known as a Western Union splice. It was used on telegraph lines so the main wire did not have to be cut thus loosing strength.

One way to open the insulation is to singe it with flame or soldering iron. Remove the burnt insulation and clean the wire with emery paper or fine sand paper. Wrap the joining wire around the buss then coat with flux. The flux helps keep out wetness and oxidation. Solder not required.

Suggestion: Save your fingers from twisting all those screw eyes. Cut several angled grooves in the mounting board and push the wires in. If desired a strip of wood will secure the wires in the grooves.


Re: No soldering required for under layout DCC bus wire splices?

ftp_webster@...
 

A true Western Union splice is connecting 2 wires together at the ends, not a branch off the main wire.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Union_splice


Richard

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