Date   
Re: Wire Connectors

Gregory Latiak
 

I share your pain. I have been looking through the Digikey catalog at board edge wire connectors -- like the units Digitrax uses on their TSMK adapter. My local electronics shop just carries ones for larger wires -- too big to use with the little magnet wires from my signals. And I am NOT soldering this stuff...

My plan, when I pick out the right connectors, is to solder these to a little PC board with a corresponding one for the cable to the signal controller -- in my case SIGM20s. I also tried punching them into ethernet sockets but the wires are too small.

Another one of those annoying areas where I am surprised that there are no OTS commercial solutions but that everyone is forced to roll their own.

greg latiak
BQR

Link to "section on running DCC and DC on the same layout" not working

sgaugian
 

The link to "section on using DC and DCC on the same layout" on this page http://www.wiringfordcc.com/intro2dcc.htm  does not work.  I am interested in reading more about using DC and DCC on the same layout as I have a friend who wants to run his DCC engines with DCC when they're everywhere on his layout except when they're on his roundtable or going in/out of his roundhouse.  Then for some (strange) reason he wants them to run under DC.  Is that advisable to do?  Thanks.  


 

Re: Link to "section on running DCC and DC on the same layout" not working

dvollrath@...
 

David, The link works for me.

Operating with DCC and DC on the same layout is not advised.

It can be done, but only with utmost care to never connect the two together... even as locos or cars cross over the boundaries. Mistakes can cause the need for expensive repairs.  

Tell your friend to rewire connections to roundhouse and turntable tracks to use DCC just like the rest of the layout. Potential roblems gone!
DonV

---In WiringForDCC@..., <davidghorn@...> wrote :

The link to "section on using DC and DCC on the same layout" on this page http://www.wiringfordcc.com/intro2dcc.htm  does not work.  I am interested in reading more about using DC and DCC on the same layout as I have a friend who wants to run his DCC engines with DCC when they're everywhere on his layout except when they're on his roundtable or going in/out of his roundhouse.  Then for some (strange) reason he wants them to run under DC.  Is that advisable to do?  Thanks.  


 

Re: Link to "section on running DCC and DC on the same layout" not working

dvollrath@...
 

Aha...David is right... The highlighted link inside the text several pages down does not work,. Look for the link in the menu selection boxes to the right of the main text. That does work.

DonV



---In WiringForDCC@..., <dvollrath@...> wrote :

David, The link works for me.

Operating with DCC and DC on the same layout is not advised.

It can be done, but only with utmost care to never connect the two together... even as locos or cars cross over the boundaries. Mistakes can cause the need for expensive repairs.  

Tell your friend to rewire connections to roundhouse and turntable tracks to use DCC just like the rest of the layout. Potential roblems gone!
DonV

---In WiringForDCC@..., <davidghorn@...> wrote :

The link to "section on using DC and DCC on the same layout" on this page http://www.wiringfordcc.com/intro2dcc.htm  does not work.  I am interested in reading more about using DC and DCC on the same layout as I have a friend who wants to run his DCC engines with DCC when they're everywhere on his layout except when they're on his roundtable or going in/out of his roundhouse.  Then for some (strange) reason he wants them to run under DC.  Is that advisable to do?  Thanks.  


 

Re: Link to "section on running DCC and DC on the same layout" not working

wirefordcc
 

David and Don,


The bad link has been fixed - hopefully in time to avoid any smoked trains due to attempting to mix DCC and DC on the same layout.


Allan

Wiring For DCC

Re: Wire Connectors

Glenn
 


Don't run off. Go to you electronics source and purchase terminal strips with screws. Yes one side is foe soldering, however there is nothing saying you cannot put two wires under one screw.

Look at digikey.com part number 36-4181-ND as an example. These can be found in many sizes.

These things can often be found on the back of electronics stuff to connect speakers.

Glenn

Re: Link to "section on running DCC and DC on the same layout" not working

Greg Harter
 

I'm new to writing on this yahoo group, so bear with me.

On running DC and DCC on the same layout:  It can be done, without problems, based on our collective experience at the Columbus Area Railroad Club in Columbus, Indiana.

I have been a member of the club for over twenty years and have actively participated in the design and execution of building a large HO layout that can interchangeably use DC and DCC on four large  loops, and a couple of reversing tracks.  In several years of operation, we have never had any serious problems with the system.  I cannot overemphasize that sentence!!!

Last July I presented a seminar at the NMRA in Indianapolis on how to do this, and we had a couple of tour buses come down to see our layout(s) in action.

I won't go into all the details here, but suffice it to say we've operated this layout for several years and have gone through a couple of revisions and redesign of the layouts/track plans/ontrol panels........NONE related to running DC and DCC on the same layout.

If you want to know more, have a look at the presentation.  I think it's available on the NMRA site.
If you want to ask me questions about the system, fine also.

Blairsurf (gbh)


Re: Link to "section on running DCC and DC on the same layout" not working

Mark Gurries
 

Typically where there is a apparent disagreement on this subject, it comes down to the definition of what running DC with DCC means electrically.   Both end up being correct statements when put into proper context.

I cannot find the presentation discussed below on the Indiana NMRA convention website to determine what is being done a the club being discussed.

Examples.

1) Layout with Block Power control.  Each end of a given block has double insulated rail joiners.  Each track block is assigned a DC throttle (A) -OR- DCC throttle/booster (B) using toggle switch.  Problem:  Two block are next to each other and a train from DC block enters the DCC block or visa versa.  DC throttle is now shorted to DCC throttle/boosters.   DC collides with DCC form of AC power.  Conflict results in DCC booster damage or DC throttle damage.  You cannot mix DC and AC.  Even if no damage appears, there is nothing in the electrical design of the DC throttle or the DCC system that support this mode.  Would violate warrantee of DCC system.  Example of damage have been documented on multiple DCC support group list.   Conclusion:  Mixing Live DC with Live DCC on the same track is NOT advisable nor recommended by any DCC manufacture due to the electrical destruction possible.

2) Layout with master relays that convert the entire layout between DCC or DC with a master switch.  Only one system is active on the given layout.  No mixing of Live DC or DCC.  Conclusion:  Mixing DC with DCC one layout is possible as long as only one system is active.

3) Multiple Railroads with independent track circuits on the same layout with NO interchange between the two railroads.  Think SP tracks and WP railroads  on the same layout but there is no track interchange between the two railroads.  Hence there is nothing electrically common. The SP tracks are powered by DCC while the WP track run on DC.   Conclusion: Mixing DC and DCC on the same layout is possible as long as there is no interchange between the two railroads.




On Feb 17, 2017, at 6:30 PM, greg1462@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



I'm new to writing on this yahoo group, so bear with me.

On running DC and DCC on the same layout:  It can be done, without problems, based on our collective experience at the Columbus Area Railroad Club in Columbus, Indiana.

I have been a member of the club for over twenty years and have actively participated in the design and execution of building a large HO layout that can interchangeably use DC and DCC on four large  loops, and a couple of reversing tracks.  In several years of operation, we have never had any serious problems with the system.  I cannot overemphasize that sentence!!!

Last July I presented a seminar at the NMRA in Indianapolis on how to do this, and we had a couple of tour buses come down to see our layout(s) in action.

I won't go into all the details here, but suffice it to say we've operated this layout for several years and have gone through a couple of revisions and redesign of the layouts/track plans/ontrol panels........NONE related to running DC and DCC on the same layout.

If you want to know more, have a look at the presentation.  I think it's available on the NMRA site.
If you want to ask me questions about the system, fine also.

Blairsurf (gbh)





Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Re: Link to "section on running DCC and DC on the same layout" not working

sgaugian
 

DonV, Allan, and others,
That's what I told him -- just make it all DCC.  I need to talk with him again to get clarity around why he "needs" to have both, but also share with him some of the replies here as to why that's not a good idea.
Dave

Re: Link to "section on running DCC and DC on the same layout" not working

Richard Gagnon
 

Some years ago a club I belonged to attempted to run DC and DCC on a layout with common rail. We had four throttles and fourteen blocks. One throttle would be for DCC. A dispatcher at the main panel would control blocks the operators called out. Before DCC, every so often the, who has my loco cry would be heard.
We ran dual for a little while. One time everyone got into a discussion and did not pay attention. A loco crossed, in fact I recall maybe two did and the five amp NCE Power Pro booster was smoked.
A six amp transformer sent AC to each throttle port on the fascia. Each throttle converted the AC to DC with pulse power and a 2N3055 power transistor was for the output. Plenty to smoke a booster. We banned anymore DC operations.

Rich
 

Re: Wire Connectors

Puckdropper
 

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/avx-corporation/009276004021106/478-6171-1-ND/2346156

http://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=277-2076-1-ND

I found a couple spring-loaded terminals that accept wire as small as 26 ga.  I'll just have to REconnect AGAIN (sorry, I'm a little frustrated with that--the wire is finer than my finest stripper) little leads on that one signal and can make my terminal blocks with these.

Don't be afraid of surface mount, the only thing that's changed is that you don't have to drill holes first.  You could connect wire across the connectors or scratch yourself out a board.

I'm probably going to make a board, but I can't say for sure it'll work until I get the parts.  I've got a mill that can handle the fine tolerance, it's just a matter of feeding it fine enough bits at a slow enough speed to make things happen.  Those fine bits will break if you look at them wrong.

Puckdropper


---In wiringfordcc@..., <ghazel@...> wrote :


Don't run off. Go to you electronics source and purchase terminal strips with screws. Yes one side is foe soldering, however there is nothing saying you cannot put two wires under one screw.

Look at digikey.com part number 36-4181-ND as an example. These can be found in many sizes.

These things can often be found on the back of electronics stuff to connect speakers.

Glenn

Dual guage Shinohara turnouts with Frog Jumper

Ray Trovillion
 

I am still having a lot of problems getting the wiring right on these Shinohara dual gauge turnouts.  I have received many emails on this subject, most are great information,  many are contradictory.  I have been told to use auto light bulbs, then others say don't.  I have been told to completely isolate the turnouts using separate power.  I've also been told to gap the frogs, all of which I have done.  Now I find myself redoing all of the fixes, it's probably a good thing I have only done all of these fixes to one turnout, instead of the 25 or so on the layout.  I have studied Alan Gartner's text at length, but he is very vague on these turnouts.  I have also gapped the turnouts, as per Fastracks.  I have also contacted a couple of "experts" that actually charge for their knowledge, same old line, never dealt with this type of turnout.  Is there anyone out there who has actually installed Shinohara dual gauge turnouts with frog jumpers?  I would like to know exactly where if anywhere, to gap the rails, and exactly where to install the frog jumper wiring on the frog, also the best place to power the turnout.  I did find a Youtube video (two parts) that was very helpful, but very little about gapping the rails.


Thanks;


Ray L. "Doc" Trovillion

Doctrov@...

Re: Wire Connectors

dvollrath@...
 

Use fine sand paper or emery cloth to rub off the insulating varnish on fine wires held to a piece of wood. Heat from a soldering iron may also work. Try using a small amount of flux and tinning the wires.

Spring loaded or other terminal strips with internal clamp devices don't work well to join two wires of different diameters. The larger diameter wire takes up the space and the smaller wire is still loose.

DonV




---In WiringForDCC@..., <puckdropper@...> wrote :

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/avx-corporation/009276004021106/478-6171-1-ND/2346156

http://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=277-2076-1-ND

I found a couple spring-loaded terminals that accept wire as small as 26 ga.  I'll just have to REconnect AGAIN (sorry, I'm a little frustrated with that--the wire is finer than my finest stripper) little leads on that one signal and can make my terminal blocks with these.

Don't be afraid of surface mount, the only thing that's changed is that you don't have to drill holes first.  You could connect wire across the connectors or scratch yourself out a board.

I'm probably going to make a board, but I can't say for sure it'll work until I get the parts.  I've got a mill that can handle the fine tolerance, it's just a matter of feeding it fine enough bits at a slow enough speed to make things happen.  Those fine bits will break if you look at them wrong.

Puckdropper


---In wiringfordcc@..., <ghazel@...> wrote :


Don't run off. Go to you electronics source and purchase terminal strips with screws. Yes one side is foe soldering, however there is nothing saying you cannot put two wires under one screw.

Look at digikey.com part number 36-4181-ND as an example. These can be found in many sizes.

These things can often be found on the back of electronics stuff to connect speakers.

Glenn

Re: Wire Connectors

Blair & Rasa
 

Don

A match will also work for taking the red-orange varnish off magnet wire, if that's what we're dealing with here.  Agreed about the spring-loaded terminals, they're a trap. 

Blair


On 17/02/19 15:27, dvollrath@... [WiringForDCC] wrote:

Use fine sand paper or emery cloth to rub off the insulating varnish on fine wires held to a piece of wood. Heat from a soldering iron may also work. Try using a small amount of flux and tinning the wires.

Spring loaded or other terminal strips with internal clamp devices don't work well to join two wires of different diameters. The larger diameter wire takes up the space and the smaller wire is still loose.

DonV




---In WiringForDCC@..., wrote :

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/avx-corporation/009276004021106/478-6171-1-ND/2346156

http://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=277-2076-1-ND

I found a couple spring-loaded terminals that accept wire as small as 26 ga.  I'll just have to REconnect AGAIN (sorry, I'm a little frustrated with that--the wire is finer than my finest stripper) little leads on that one signal and can make my terminal blocks with these.

Don't be afraid of surface mount, the only thing that's changed is that you don't have to drill holes first.  You could connect wire across the connectors or scratch yourself out a board.

I'm probably going to make a board, but I can't say for sure it'll work until I get the parts.  I've got a mill that can handle the fine tolerance, it's just a matter of feeding it fine enough bits at a slow enough speed to make things happen.  Those fine bits will break if you look at them wrong.

Puckdropper


---In wiringfordcc@..., wrote :


Don't run off. Go to you electronics source and purchase terminal strips with screws. Yes one side is foe soldering, however there is nothing saying you cannot put two wires under one screw.

Look at digikey.com part number 36-4181-ND as an example. These can be found in many sizes.

These things can often be found on the back of electronics stuff to connect speakers.

Glenn

Re: Dual guage Shinohara turnouts with Frog Jumper

dvollrath@...
 


You should only need to supply 3 insulated rail joiners and one frog switch. If you are using DCC use a frog juicer instead of a separate switch.
DonV

 


---In WiringForDCC@..., <doctrov@...> wrote :

I am still having a lot of problems getting the wiring right on these Shinohara dual gauge turnouts.  I have received many emails on this subject, most are great information,  many are contradictory.  I have been told to use auto light bulbs, then others say don't.  I have been told to completely isolate the turnouts using separate power.  I've also been told to gap the frogs, all of which I have done.  Now I find myself redoing all of the fixes, it's probably a good thing I have only done all of these fixes to one turnout, instead of the 25 or so on the layout.  I have studied Alan Gartner's text at length, but he is very vague on these turnouts.  I have also gapped the turnouts, as per Fastracks.  I have also contacted a couple of "experts" that actually charge for their knowledge, same old line, never dealt with this type of turnout.  Is there anyone out there who has actually installed Shinohara dual gauge turnouts with frog jumpers?  I would like to know exactly where if anywhere, to gap the rails, and exactly where to install the frog jumper wiring on the frog, also the best place to power the turnout.  I did find a Youtube video (two parts) that was very helpful, but very little about gapping the rails.


Thanks;


Ray L. "Doc" Trovillion

Doctrov@...

Re: Wire Connectors

Puckdropper
 

Unfortunately, that's not what I'm dealing with.  I've had great success with a solder pot or really big soldering iron (you want to be able to encapsulate the wire with solder) for stripping magnet wire, but Tomar used a really fine traditionally insulated wire on the signals.  It's finer than my 30 ga strippers will strip easily.  I'm not sure if the solder pot will handle that traditionally insulated wire without big nasty smells.

Good point on the spring-loaded terminals.  They are a trap, that's how they work. :-)  I had planned on one wire to a terminal, as that's all I need.

Puckdropper


---In wiringfordcc@..., <smithbr@...> wrote :

Don

A match will also work for taking the red-orange varnish off magnet wire, if that's what we're dealing with here.  Agreed about the spring-loaded terminals, they're a trap. 

Blair


On 17/02/19 15:27, dvollrath@... [WiringForDCC] wrote:

Use fine sand paper or emery cloth to rub off the insulating varnish on fine wires held to a piece of wood. Heat from a soldering iron may also work. Try using a small amount of flux and tinning the wires.

Spring loaded or other terminal strips with internal clamp devices don't work well to join two wires of different diameters. The larger diameter wire takes up the space and the smaller wire is still loose.

DonV


Dual guage & frog Juicers

Ray Trovillion
 

From your reply, it sounds like I should not be gaping any of the rails.  Also, should I have isolated the power to the turnout?  I am having trouble getting the power to all the rails with gaps.  My Frog juicer doesn't differentiate between the red and green LEDs.  I know I have probably screwed up the turnout I have been modifying.  Thanks for all your help.


Ray L. "Doc" Trovillion

Doctrov@...

Re: Wire Connectors

Puckdropper
 

So I was thinking... What is a thermal wire stripper but something that gets really hot and melts a bit of insulation?  So, I took some Nichrome wire and ran it over a hole drilled in a piece of wood and looped it so the wire touches the Nichrome in two places at once.  I hooked that up to a power supply and voila! instant thermal stripper using parts I had laying around.

It worked great, but I only tested down to 28 gauge or so decoder wire.  I didn't have that really fine wire available, as it's down at the club.

Puckdropper


---In wiringfordcc@..., <puckdropper@...> wrote :

Unfortunately, that's not what I'm dealing with.  I've had great success with a solder pot or really big soldering iron (you want to be able to encapsulate the wire with solder) for stripping magnet wire, but Tomar used a really fine traditionally insulated wire on the signals.  It's finer than my 30 ga strippers will strip easily.  I'm not sure if the solder pot will handle that traditionally insulated wire without big nasty smells.

Good point on the spring-loaded terminals.  They are a trap, that's how they work. :-)  I had planned on one wire to a terminal, as that's all I need.

Puckdropper


Re: Dual guage & frog Juicers

dvollrath@...
 

Ray, Be sure to check out Allan's words at  http://www.webring.org/l/rd?ring=modelrailroading;id=13;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ewiringfordcc%2Ecom%2Fswitches_walthers%2Ehtm

The basic turnout should work OK if you simply isolate the 3 exit rails and let the points determine and power route the polarity of the frogs and those rails. Add a Frog Juicer for better continuity of power. As Alan says, it is almost impossible to make it DCC friendly. This is not important if your wheels are in gauge and do not cause shorts on the back sides while passing through.

There is no real reason to isolate the whole turnout either. Like any other turnout, if you run into it from the frog end with the throwbar set the wrong way, there will be a short circuit and/or derailment caused by operator error. Isolating the switch with a light bulb only fixes 1/2 the problem.

DonV

---In WiringForDCC@..., <doctrov@...> wrote :

From your reply, it sounds like I should not be gaping any of the rails.  Also, should I have isolated the power to the turnout?  I am having trouble getting the power to all the rails with gaps.  My Frog juicer doesn't differentiate between the red and green LEDs.  I know I have probably screwed up the turnout I have been modifying.  Thanks for all your help.


Ray L. "Doc" Trovillion

Doctrov@...

dual guage

Ray Trovillion
 

Thanks for the expert advice, I will go correct what I have done, and maybe solve my problems.  I will let you know how I do.


Thanks again!!