Date   
Re: Scratch built diamonds

David Klemm
 

Lee/Don,

In my diamonds which are 3 x 5 for 15 diamonds I have a 2 inch buffer around them.  I then have a PSX A-R flipping power on the one side of each direction.  The buffer is needed because if an engine is going East and West then an engine cannot be in the buffer zone for the North and South route.  I can't recall a single instance of an issue with an engine coming in from each direction which would have caused the PSX A-R to flip out.

To add to the complexity, I had interchange tracks on 3 of the four sides connecting the two routes.  I had a dedicated PSX A-R for the diamonds.  I had a second PSX A-R that addressed flipping the power on the interchange track that required it.  

David


To: WiringForDCC@...
From: WiringForDCC@...
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 14:39:54 +0000
Subject: RE: [WiringForDCC] Scratch built diamonds

 

Lee,

The simple answer is “Yes”. You may have issues with a frog juicer and/or auto-reverser if the entrance and exit paths cross between two different boosters or different circuit breaker limited power districts. Difficult to explain but multiple incident reports of just that. Might have something to do with using single or double or hex juicers, or older units vs newer ‘improved’ designs.

 

There are a few options: 1) use a crossing with a better design that uses smaller dead frogs. 2) Wire the entire crossing from only one power district and a PSX A-R unit powered from that district. Yes, a train traveling in the other path will momentarily connect the two districts together. 3)  Power the frog areas of the crossing via a DPDT relay triggered to select the proper district source and polarity from approaching train (track occupancy) sensors, or train dispatcher controlled permission operation.

 

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 7:20 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Scratch built diamonds

 




All, I am referencing David Klemm's scratch built diamonds (http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm) he made for his DCC layout.
 
I fully understand  his diagram, but on our club layout the two tracks that cross are on different power districts.  Will this be a problem in hooking up an auto reverse circuit or a frog juicer?
 
Thanks much in advance.
Lee
 





Re: Scratch built diamonds

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

David,

You did a hybrid of my 2) and 3) whereas your ‘buffer’ zone isolated the entire crossing and path occupancy permission control is somewhat obvious, even if manual by train engineers. Yes you can power the entire ‘isolated’ crossing via a PSX-AR. However the design of the frogs is still important to avoid dead spots or shorts.

Lee’s questions brought in the possibility of issues of using a frog juicer… a different product than the PSX-AR… or other brand A-R units for that matter… and workability with two separate CB power districts. Either of these have been demonstrated by others to be somewhat problematic depending on choices of other equipment.

 

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 9:51 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: RE: [WiringForDCC] Scratch built diamonds

 




Lee/Don,

 

In my diamonds which are 3 x 5 for 15 diamonds I have a 2 inch buffer around them.  I then have a PSX A-R flipping power on the one side of each direction.  The buffer is needed because if an engine is going East and West then an engine cannot be in the buffer zone for the North and South route.  I can't recall a single instance of an issue with an engine coming in from each direction which would have caused the PSX A-R to flip out.

 

To add to the complexity, I had interchange tracks on 3 of the four sides connecting the two routes.  I had a dedicated PSX A-R for the diamonds.  I had a second PSX A-R that addressed flipping the power on the interchange track that required it.  

 

David


To: WiringForDCC@...
From: WiringForDCC@...
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 14:39:54 +0000
Subject: RE: [WiringForDCC] Scratch built diamonds

 

 

Lee,

The simple answer is “Yes”. You may have issues with a frog juicer and/or auto-reverser if the entrance and exit paths cross between two different boosters or different circuit breaker limited power districts. Difficult to explain but multiple incident reports of just that. Might have something to do with using single or double or hex juicers, or older units vs newer ‘improved’ designs.

 

There are a few options: 1) use a crossing with a better design that uses smaller dead frogs. 2) Wire the entire crossing from only one power district and a PSX A-R unit powered from that district. Yes, a train traveling in the other path will momentarily connect the two districts together. 3)  Power the frog areas of the crossing via a DPDT relay triggered to select the proper district source and polarity from approaching train (track occupancy) sensors, or train dispatcher controlled permission operation.

 

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 7:20 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Scratch built diamonds

 



All, I am referencing David Klemm's scratch built diamonds (http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm) he made for his DCC layout.
 
I fully understand  his diagram, but on our club layout the two tracks that cross are on different power districts.  Will this be a problem in hooking up an auto reverse circuit or a frog juicer?
 
Thanks much in advance.
Lee
 



 




Re: Scratch built diamonds

Paul O
 

David, I understand, however, Lee mentioned only two tracks crossing.

It was just a thought to make things easier for him.

 

Paul O

 

Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 8:17 AM
Paul,

 

The problem with the pre-built crossing is the amount of plastic used to keep the power isolated. In the Wabash/IC crossing that has 5 in a row it amounted to something like 3 inches of dead space in 9 inches. This causes a lot of 4 axle engines to stall.  With hand built the issue goes away. 

David Klemm
6s Plus

Tortoise power supply

JBJudy
 

I hope this is the right place to ask these.


I am installing 3 (for now) tortoise machines. I have an old Radio Shack Micronta regulated 12v power supply. The label on the back says 13.8 VDC - 2.5A. 


1) Will a voltage above the Tortoise doc stated 12v be an issue? If not.....


2) Will this work - I understand that if I add more Tortoise's I may need a more powerful supply later.


3) I also have 2 old power packs from my days before DCC - but the stated output on one is 12v DC (A meter measured it more like 16v) and another that has 20v DC labeled on the back. So I presumed that they might be too much. 


Thx in advance.


JB Morrow

Re: Tortoise power supply

rg <richg_1998@...>
 

The Tortoise draws about 15 to 18 ma even when holding the points closed.

Rich




On Wednesday, April 13, 2016, 7:47 PM, jbjudy@... [WiringForDCC] wrote:



I hope this is the right place to ask these.


I am installing 3 (for now) tortoise machines. I have an old Radio Shack Micronta regulated 12v power supply. The label on the back says 13.8 VDC - 2.5A. 


1) Will a voltage above the Tortoise doc stated 12v be an issue? If not.....


2) Will this work - I understand that if I add more Tortoise's I may need a more powerful supply later.


3) I also have 2 old power packs from my days before DCC - but the stated output on one is 12v DC (A meter measured it more like 16v) and another that has 20v DC labeled on the back. So I presumed that they might be too much. 


Thx in advance.


JB Morrow



Re: Tortoise power supply

Mark Gurries
 

On Apr 13, 2016, at 4:45 PM, jbjudy@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

I hope this is the right place to ask these.
It is.

I am installing 3 (for now) tortoise machines. I have an old Radio Shack Micronta regulated 12v power supply. The label on the back says 13.8 VDC - 2.5A.

1) Will a voltage above the Tortoise doc stated 12v be an issue?
Unfortunately Circuitron does NOT provide a voltage specification for the Tortoise motor. They simply say 12V generically. But consider the following:

1) The many devices that Circuitron sells (TC-3 and TC-4) to drive the Tortoise are specified to work up to 18VDC. There is no regulator to lower the voltage to the Tortoise.

2) They are designed to work with 12V “train set voltages” which actually represents a very wide/loose 10V to 16V range. 12V is simply the NOMINAL or target voltage. Not a maximum nor minimum.

13.8VDC is only 15% higher voltage than the nominal 12V and will not cause any damage.


2) Will this work - I understand that if I add more Tortoise's I may need a more powerful supply later.
Tortoise consume VERY LITTLE current. As Rich just posted, about 15mA to 18mA stalled (Points closed). Most people simply round the number up to 20mA to make the math easy.

20mA = 0.02 Amps

2.5A / 0.02 Amps = 125.

So your 2.5A 13.8VDC power supply will be able to drive 125 Tortoise machines!!.

3) I also have 2 old power packs from my days before DCC - but the stated output on one is 12v DC (A meter measured it more like 16v)
How old is old? Where did you get them from…a train set. Name and Model Number?

Chances are it is a simple transformer type in which 16VDC is not pure DC (Unfiltered DC). Think of it as a soft 16VDC. Such a 16VDC from a transformer power pack will be OK with a Tortoise. But I would stick with the 13.8V supply.

and another that has 20v DC labeled on the back.
No good.

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com

Re: Tortoise power supply

JBJudy
 

The 20v is a dual throttle at least 50+ years old - HO when I grew up! Will not use it.
The other is maybe only 20yrs old & I'll skip it also.
Sounds like my Radio Shack Micronta is just the ticket.

Thx to all.
JB
 

Re: Tortoise power supply

Steve McKee
 

JB, I am using that same power supply for my tortoise machines and have never had a problem. I am powering 36 machines right now along with some animation thing. My layout is 220 feet around and the unit does just fine. My wiring is set up so I can split the 220 feet into 2 sections if its ever needed since I have another of those units in reserve in case the first one goes out at when I’m on tour. Steve McKee

Re: Tortoise power supply

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

As Mark G. and Rich have pointed out, the Tortoise motor is not very picky about the actual voltage applied for operation. Its internal resistance is on the order of 700-1000 ohms. So when stalled it will draw 12-16ma when powered from 12Vdc. I wouldn’t put more than 16-18Vdc continuously on one for long term reliability. In my experience they will work slowly from 5Vdc logic circuits, or a 6-9V battery, or from rectified 6.3Vac (cheap ’filament’ supply transformer) or even rectified DCC track voltage. It doesn’t need a fancy (read: complex) power supply.

 

DonV  

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 10:33 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Re: Tortoise power supply

 



The 20v is a dual throttle at least 50+ years old - HO when I grew up! Will not use it.

The other is maybe only 20yrs old & I'll skip it also.

Sounds like my Radio Shack Micronta is just the ticket.



Thx to all.

JB

 




Wiring For DCC Update: BLI N&W Aux Water Tender

wirefordcc
 


The BLI N&W auxillary water tender has lighting that is not directional or controllable when used on DCC.  I have installed a lighting (function only) decoder into these tenders.


Wiring For DCC - Non-DCC Decoder installation in a Aristo-Craft C-16, Wireless, Battery Powered, with Sound


Allan Gartner

Wiring For DCC

Re: Wiring For DCC Update: BLI N&W Aux Water Tender

wirefordcc
 

Great.  I see that Yahoo took the metadata from my old file that I missed updating.  No need to be confused, this is for the BLI tender.  I'll fix the metadata.

Single Decoder MU-ing a Calf-Cow

Daniel Thomson
 

Gentlemen:
For the MNSE Club we are looking to lash up a Calf-Cow switcher pair.  Most likely candidates are the Life-Like (N-Scale) SW-8/9, SW-1200 or Micro-Trains SW-1500.  All are identical internals and use a TCS MT 1500 decoder (Cont:1.3/Peak:2.0A).  Stall on each motor draws less than 0.2A.  All rail pick up is obviously in parallel. For proper back EMF and control should the motors be MU wired in series or parallel?

Best regards,

Dan Thomson, Pres. MNSE

Home


Re: Single Decoder MU-ing a Calf-Cow

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

Wire the motors on parallel. However before starting be sure they run at the same speed on DC power.

DonV

On Apr 24, 2016, at 8:50 AM, danielc.thomson@...<mailto:danielc.thomson@...> [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...<mailto:WiringForDCC@...>> wrote:



Gentlemen:
For the MNSE Club we are looking to lash up a Calf-Cow switcher pair. Most likely candidates are the Life-Like (N-Scale) SW-8/9, SW-1200 or Micro-Trains SW-1500. All are identical internals and use a TCS MT 1500 decoder (Cont:1.3/Peak:2.0A). Stall on each motor draws less than 0.2A. All rail pick up is obviously in parallel. For proper back EMF and control should the motors be MU wired in series or parallel?

Best regards,

Dan Thomson, Pres. MNSE

Home<http://www.MNSE.org>



[image] <http://www.MNSE.org>


Home <http://www.MNSE.org>
The Milwaukee-N-Southeastern is located at 4747 S Packard. The building upstairs houses a Bakery. Our train layout is located in the basement of the building. &nbs...


View on www.MNSE.org <http://www.MNSE.org>

Preview by Yahoo

Re: Single Decoder MU-ing a Calf-Cow

Richard Sutcliffe
 

Dan

Why not just wire the power pick in parallel, and make both decoders the same address?

This would extend the effective wheelbase of the consist, without introducing other complications.

On Apr 24, 2016, at 9:19 AM, 'Vollrath, Don' dvollrath@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

Wire the motors on parallel. However before starting be sure they run at the same speed on DC power.

DonV
Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 24, 2016, at 8:50 AM, danielc.thomson@...<mailto:danielc.thomson@...> [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...<mailto:WiringForDCC@...>> wrote:



Gentlemen:
For the MNSE Club we are looking to lash up a Calf-Cow switcher pair. Most likely candidates are the Life-Like (N-Scale) SW-8/9, SW-1200 or Micro-Trains SW-1500. All are identical internals and use a TCS MT 1500 decoder (Cont:1.3/Peak:2.0A). Stall on each motor draws less than 0.2A. All rail pick up is obviously in parallel. For proper back EMF and control should the motors be MU wired in series or parallel?

Best regards,

Dan Thomson, Pres. MNSE

Dick Sutcliffe
General Manager
Bradley, Roger & Tidewater Rwy.
Cariboo Traction Company

Wiring for volt & amp meters on a programming track

pacific.cascade.ry@...
 

I have a single electrically isolated track in my 5 track staging yard, above my work bench, that I both program and operate on when running. I run the staging yard and programming track with my Digitrax DCS 50 Zephyr that has separate outputs for programming and operating DC or digital. The rest of my layout is powered from a separate 10 amp booster controlled through the network. I am in need of a wiring schematic for separate volt and amp meters that will measure both the DC and digital volts and current on the programming track using some kind of diode bridge rectifier system. I'm sure a schematic like this exists somewhere on the internet, I just haven't found it yet. I can build it, I just can't figure out how to design it to do all three actions. All suggestions and/ or links are greatly appreciated.

Capt. Brigg Franklin, CEO
Pacific Cascade Railway in HO scale.
The Pacific Cascade Railway

 



Re: Wiring for volt & amp meters on a programming track

Rick Knight
 

Capt. Install a DCC Ramp meter in series with your program track feed wires. You will need to be able to switch it in and out of the circuit for programming. DPDT will take it in and out of the circuit. You also need to stop the back feed from the programming track by having a second switch to prevent the Ramp meter from using power when programming. Wired this way allows to put the Ramp meter in and out of the circuit at will. Measuring current draw of the decoder-loco is now easy. Rick.

Reed Switches

Carl
 

Hi Gang:

Saw a deal on reed switches:

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G20623&mc_cid=35dd35d876&mc_eid=a46883e392

Thought of you guys.

Carl.


help with complex reverse loop

cmitcham1
 

hi group. a while back, i put a pdf in the files section in a "dcc best proactices" folder. i would really like some help, because crunch time is fast approaching.


page 2 of the pdf shows the common simple reverse loop wiring with an auto-reverser. page 4 shows the actual mess i am faced with. the layout runs fine right now, but it is not wired as pictured. currently, tortoise contact sets power-route track power through relays to power the "interferring" tracks and turn off the reverse loop.


i was hoping to get rid of all relays and power routing, power all tracks all the time, and use auto-reversers to power all sections that needed to switch polarity. i drew the picture shown, and thought as long as trains never traversed the reverse loop while any of the interferring tracks were used, all would be ok.


luckily, i looked at the picture one last time before i presented it to the group. i saw the obvious glaring error that any train on the interferring routes hits the diamonds with both rails the same color.


now i am thinking that power routing cannot be gotten rid of in this scenario. can anyone help with this?


thanks,

calvin.


Re: help with complex reverse loop

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

Yep. You have a problem with few choices. Where other tracks cross over the reversing loop the frogs and inner rails of the diamond need to be individually power routed… or dead. My suggestions are:

 

1.      Make custom crossing diamonds with tiny insulated frogs with each of the center rails between them power wired to their respective rail paths. I doubt that you can find such a crossing available commercially.

OR

 

2.      The easy way is to isolate all 8 rails of a commercial X-over and use dispatching right-of-way  relays to determine the source of power (reversing loop or crossing) in the right polarity as required for train occupation of that path.

 

3.       You might be able to automate the relays of suggestion #2 based on occupation sensors indicating that a train is entering/exiting/using the reversing loop.

 

4.      Also be aware that you have 3 enter/exit points of the reversing loop. That in itself can cause issues if the A-R path is not long enough to accommodate an entire train. (lower right to left exit)

 

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2016 10:05 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] help with complex reverse loop

 




hi group. a while back, i put a pdf in the files section in a "dcc best proactices" folder. i would really like some help, because crunch time is fast approaching.

 

page 2 of the pdf shows the common simple reverse loop wiring with an auto-reverser. page 4 shows the actual mess i am faced with. the layout runs fine right now, but it is not wired as pictured. currently, tortoise contact sets power-route track power through relays to power the "interferring" tracks and turn off the reverse loop.

 

i was hoping to get rid of all relays and power routing, power all tracks all the time, and use auto-reversers to power all sections that needed to switch polarity. i drew the picture shown, and thought as long as trains never traversed the reverse loop while any of the interferring tracks were used, all would be ok.

 

luckily, i looked at the picture one last time before i presented it to the group. i saw the obvious glaring error that any train on the interferring routes hits the diamonds with both rails the same color.

 

now i am thinking that power routing cannot be gotten rid of in this scenario. can anyone help with this?

 

thanks,

calvin.

 




Re: help with complex reverse loop

Steve Haas
 

<<i was hoping to get rid of all relays and power routing, power all tracks all the time, and use auto-reversers to power all sections that needed to switch polarity. i drew the picture shown, and thought as long as trains never traversed the reverse loop while any of the interferring tracks were used, all would be ok.>>

<<luckily, i looked at the picture one last time before i presented it to the group. i saw the obvious glaring error that any train on the interferring routes hits the diamonds with both rails the same color.>>

<<now i am thinking that power routing cannot be gotten rid of in this scenario. can anyone help with this?>>

When it comes to wiring reversing sections, a lot of us incorrectly come to the conclusion that the track that reverses our equipment must be the track that we wire as the reversing section.

This is not always the case; in fact, sometimes other sections of track can be used in a manner that simplifies wiring and reduces cost.

As an example, there is a wye on a local layout, located to the west of the passenger terminal. Trains can run East<>West, East<>South, and West<>South through this wye. Without the West<>South leg of the wye, there is not reversing possible and no need for a reversing section.  

The wye is used to reverse passenger trains:

1)      Trains arriving from the South take the South<>East route through the wye and head into the passenger station. When they depart for their return trip, they back through the wye East>West, then take the West>South leg of the wye to head south on their return trip.

2)      Trains arriving from the West take the West>South leg of the wye then back into the terminal using the South>East leg of the wye to back into the terminal. For their return trip they head West using the East>west leg of the wye.

The owner wanted to use the West<>South leg of the wye for the reversing section, but it wasn’t long enough to hold the entire train. The solution was to wire the West<>South leg of the wye in phase with the track arriving from the South.  The reversing section was cut into the previously in-phase section of the layout starting with the turnout at the west end of the wye and extending one train length plus to the west.

This solved the one train length problem.

Alan does include this example in one of his diagrams on his “Wiring for DCC website”.

The diagram under discussion in this thread does not provide us with enough info to determine if this solution will work or not – we don’t know enough about the mainline track from the mouth of the loop extending left, so it will be up to you to determine if the following is a viable option:

1)      Wire what you have marked as the reversing loop in blue/grey to match the phasing of the track on the far right of the diagram, and

2)      Make the turnout at the left of your diagram and the track leading to the left for one train length to be the reversing section.

3)      Caveat: As Don V commented, depending on the make/model/construction of the crossings in the diagrams, you still need to determine if and how you will manage the frogs in those crossings.

This option may or may not work for you, but even if it doesn’t it might open your eyes to other possible ways of wiring this area of the layout.

Food for thought.

 

Best regards,

Steve

Steve Haas

Snoqualmie, WA

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

thanks,

calvin.